Weekend Open Discussion

This is the time and place to post observations about your local areas, comments on news stories or the New Jersey housing market, open house reports, etc. If you have any questions you wanted to ask earlier in the week but never posted them up, let’s have them. Also a good place to post suggestions, requests for information, criticism, and praise.

For readers that have never commented, there is a link at the top of each message that is typically labelled “[#] Comments“. Go ahead and give that a click, you might be missing out on a world of information you didn’t know about. While you are there, introduce yourselves to everyone.

For new readers that have only read the messages displayed on the main page, take a look through the archives, a substantial amount of information has been put online in the past year. The archives can be accessed by using the links found in the menus on the right hand side of the page.

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808 Responses to Weekend Open Discussion

  1. grim says:

    September WARN Notices:

    2008- SEPTEMBER WARN Notice

    COMPANY CITY EFFECTIVE DATE WORKFORCE AFFECTED

    ABM ENGINEERING STATEWIDE 8/29/08 63

    BURLINGTON RESINS BURLINGTON 11/1/08 122

    EBI HOLDINGS PARSIPPANY 11/7/08 111

    GMAC MORTGAGE CHERRY HILL 11/26/08 32

    EQUITY ONE MARLTON 11/7/08 147

    POPULAR MORTGAGE CHERRY HILL 11/7/08 167

    SWS WAREHOUSING MONROE 11/10/08 32

    VWR INT. BRIDGEPORT 2/28/09 76

    WACHOVIA STATEWIDE 10/1/08 56

    AMERICAN FUJI SEAL FAIRFIELD 11/21/08 68

    NEWARK MORNING LEDGER NEWARK 1/5/09 1657

    NJFOP FUNDRAISING OCEAN 9/17/08 99

    TIMES OF TRENTON TRENTON 1/5/09 151

  2. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    U.S. Economy Probably Lost Jobs in September for Ninth Month

    The U.S. probably lost jobs in September for a ninth month as the credit crisis deepened the economic slump, economists said before a government report today.

    Payrolls fell by 105,000 last month, the biggest decline in five years, according to the median estimate of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News. The Labor Department report, the last before the presidential election, may also show the unemployment rate was unchanged at a five-year high of 6.1 percent.

    The world’s largest economy may be headed for bigger job losses as the worst financial meltdown since the Great Depression causes consumers and companies to retrench. A sinking labor market and rising borrowing costs raise the odds Federal Reserve policy makers will cut interest rates by the Oct. 28-29 meeting.

    “The domestic economy is in a recession, and things deteriorated during the month,” said Jonathan Basile, an economist at Credit Suisse Holdings Inc. in New York. “A bad jobs number would solidify the market’s expectations of a Fed rate cut sooner than the meeting.”

    The payroll report is due at 8:30 a.m. in Washington. Estimates in the Bloomberg survey of 76 economists ranged from declines of 156,000 to 60,000. The job count dropped by 84,000 in August. Forecasts for the unemployment rate ranged from 6 percent to 6.3 percent.

  3. Richie says:

    NJFOP FUNDRAISING OCEAN 9/17/08 99

    Does this mean I won’t get a call asking to donate money to the NJ FOP this year?

    I could use one less donation solicitation this year…

  4. House Hunter says:

    this is bad, state of CA may not meet payroll soon: http://www.cnbc.com/id/27004463

  5. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Wells Fargo to Buy Wachovia

    Wachovia Corp. agreed to sell itself to Wells Fargo & Co. in a $15.4 billion takeover that will require no government assistance, scrapping a federally backed deal with Citigroup Inc.

    The Wells Fargo offer is for $7 a share in stock, based on Thursday’s closing price, 79% above where Wachovia shares finished. Wells Fargo also will assume Wachovia’s preferred stock and debt. In conjunction with the deal, Wells Fargo will issue $20 billion in new securities, mainly common stock. Wachovia shares surged 64% premarket to $6.40 while Wells Fargo rose 1% to $35.50 and Citigroup fell 6% to $21.15.

    The Wachovia/Wells Fargo deal comes four days after Wachovia and Citigroup reached a $2.16 billion agreement in principle to sell its banking operations to Citigroup.

    A Citigroup spokeswoman wasn’t immediately available to comment.

    Under the deal, Wells Fargo will acquire all of Wachovia. The Citigroup deal had excluded the asset-management and brokerage operations and put the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. on the hook for potential loan losses.

  6. Secondary Market says:

    in a single swoop, wells fargo to buy wachovia.

  7. Joey says:

    (3)
    Of course not.
    They’re going to farm some work out of Singapore.
    Standard operating procedure.

  8. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Job seekers face bleaker prospects

    Nailesh Bhatt said his office is overwhelmed these days by resumes and telephone calls from folks in the pharmaceutical industry looking for work.

    “People are really scared and concerned,” said Bhatt, whose Princeton drug consulting company, Proximare, has six employees in New Jersey and 18 in India.

    Across the state, indeed, across the nation, the story is the same. The wild swings in the market and the proposed $700 billion bailout of bad debt is getting the attention but on the ground floor of the economy, the mood is getting grimmer.

    When the nation’s September job numbers come out today, economists figure layoffs by thousands of businesses will add up to about 100,000 fewer jobs; that’s the consensus of the nation’s economists, according to Bloomberg News. The country has shed about 600,000 jobs this year through August.

    And here’s the rub: The jobs numbers don’t factor in the coming impact of three weeks of turmoil on Wall Street that includes the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers and the pending sale of Merrill Lynch to Bank of America. Both employ thousands of people in New Jersey, where the unemployment rate has been creeping up all year to a five-year high of 5.9 percent.

    “The worst is yet to come for New Jersey,” said Joel Naroff, chief economist of Commerce Bank. “We will feel the impact of layoffs on Wall Street that we haven’t seen yet.”

    That doesn’t bode well for companies like Brantley Brothers Moving and Storage in Newark. It now employs 25 people but expects to cut back to 18 or 20 by November, said Ike King, vice president of marketing.

    “Home sales are down, and that directly impacts the moving business,” he said. “Houses are on the market longer, it’s harder to get mortgage loans, and that means fewer people are moving in and out of houses.”

  9. Shore Guy says:

    “NEWARK MORNING LEDGER”

    I assume this is the official corporate name for the Star Ledger?

  10. grim says:

    From the New York Times:

    Waiting for Schadenfreude

    A couple of years ago, at the height of the boom, a friend in New York publishing described to me the indignities of being a five-figure employee commuting daily from suburban New Jersey on trains packed with traders, stock brokers and hedge-fund types.

    “These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,” he said. “And now they’re earning millions and millions – in bonuses alone.”

    The image, as you might imagine, stuck in my mind. For it summed up so well a certain kind of resentment and sense of injustice that a particular class of non-monied professionals in the New York area came to feel sometime in the late 1990s.

    The feeling of injustice wasn’t just about money, though it was partly about being more than solidly middle class and still struggling to pay the bills, as New York writer Vince Passaro captured so well in his “Reflections on the Art of Going Broke” (“Who’ll Stop the Drain?”) in Harper’s in 1998.

    It was, rather, about a sense that the wrong people had inherited the earth.

    They had taken over everything. Their salaries (and bonuses in particular) had pushed real estate costs and living expenses sky-high. Their values had permeated every aspect of life. And their choices seemed to have become the only acceptable — even viable — ones possible.

    In the 1970s, even in New York, it had been financially possible for a middle class family to survive if parents — even one parent — built a professional life around something other than purely making money. In the 1980s — even in the “greed is good” (which was of course meant to be a damning phrase) 1980s — it seemed respectable, honorable and, dare I say, valuable to do things other than make a lot of money. But by the late 1990s, in New York, if you weren’t in the financial industry, it was hard to survive.

  11. BC Bob says:

    “sas Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 10:28 pm
    these debates are nothing but WWF wrestling… there to make you think you really have a choice, as to what puppet you will elect, and the outcome has already been selected. (both parties are owned by the SAME corporate interests)

    ha ha.. wake up suckers!

    you’ve been had brother.

    SAS”

    SAS,

    hear,hear.

  12. Cindy says:

    (4) House Hunter
    Re your CA story – Info @ Mish’s states that CALPERS lost $24.9B in the last 3 months (10.4% loss.)

    “If loses continue CA taxpayers could be called upon to make up shortfalls in funding. On Monday alone, the stock markets wiped out $7.8B of the pension’s fund investments.”

  13. BC Bob says:

    A coordinated rate cut on the horizon?

    “Oct. 3 (Bloomberg) — Bank of England policy makers may cut the benchmark interest rate next week by the most since 2001 as the British economy hurtles toward a recession, economists say.”

    “We’ve got a severe financial crisis that has worsened in the past week and clear signs the economy is falling off a cliff,” Michael Saunders, chief western European economist at Citigroup, said in an interview. “The balance of risks has shifted decisively to the downside.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a2S7YxHYxxe8&refer=economies

  14. BC Bob says:

    Cindy,

    If NJ’s pension plan does not hit its benchmark, I think 8%, taxpayers are on the hook. What a system.

  15. Cindy says:

    BC – At my card game last night, a friend told me they lost $25,000 on what was touted as a basket of secure (mind you they are risk averse) global stocks etc….at Lehman. As they tracked it down, They found out the products were never even purchased. Fraud?
    Was there a lot of fraud? Is this why Lehman was allowed to go down when others were rescued?

    There is a web site:
    Lehman Brothers Fraud Info Center!

  16. grim says:

    From the AP:

    UBS to cut 2,000 jobs at its investment bank

    Swiss bank UBS AG will cut 2,000 jobs at its troubled investment banking unit, most of which will be lost in the U.S. and Britain, an official said.

    Some cuts will also be made at offices in Switzerland and the Asia-Pacific region, UBS AG spokeswoman Sabine Woessner said.

    The layoffs will bring staffing levels at the investment unit to about 17,000 by the end of the year, 6,000 fewer than at its peak in third quarter 2007, UBS said.

  17. Clotpoll says:

    Wells edges in on C and takes Wachovia!!!

  18. Clotpoll says:

    Sorry, didn’t bother to read upthread.

  19. Cindy says:

    RE Lehman – With no record of the transaction taking place does this mean Lehman just kept the money on their books to cover something else – (I have no idea how this works…??)

  20. House Hunter says:

    wow Cindy! That is just incredible.
    Just a note, sold my house in 2006 because I thought things were going to get bad. I knew the economy was going to contract, and yet I was somewhat shocked when it took until this summer to reveal itself. Even for the prepared, it can be so much more devastating in realty than one’s imagination. I know I could handle a downturn, even a bad one, not sure about others.

  21. grim says:

    Wells edges in on C and takes Wachovia!!!

    It’ll be repeated a number of times today, it’s big news, especially since they are doing it without the FDIC backstop.

  22. Cindy says:

    Hey Grim – Check you email – Time for us to all pony up – payday and all.

  23. grim says:

    Who needs a bailout? Mr. Market took care of Wachovia.

  24. Clotpoll says:

    BC (11)-

    Watched Duke/Carolina soccer last night and made plans to pull all my cash out of the bank today.

    Saw VPILF on the Today show, winking into the camera. Har!

    Anyone who votes is complicit in the crime.

  25. #10 – Great article Grim!

  26. Clotpoll says:

    BC (13)-

    Bell lap, race to the bottom.

    It will all go “by the numbers” now.

  27. grim says:

    Hey Grim – Check you email – Time for us to all pony up – payday and all.

    Cindy,

    Big thanks for the donation!

    It’ll go far. I had to dig into my pocket to pay hosting fees for the past two months. Just for reference, hosting costs me roughly $1,550 a year.

  28. Cindy says:

    15 of us at $100.00 and only $50 for Bi…..

  29. BC Bob says:

    Cindy [15],

    I can’t comment on that specific case. Don’t know what happened.

  30. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (15)-

    When we all look back, the amount of commingling and use of funds (especially pension funds) that were never supposed to be touched will be staggering. Why there is no outrage that AIG and GE have sucked dry the liquid parts of their companies is appalling.

    More alarming will be the realization that much of this activity was encouraged- even demanded- by the gubmint. Patterson and DiNallo should’ve been jailed for what they let AIG pull off.

  31. BC Bob says:

    “It’ll go far. I had to dig into my pocket to pay hosting fees for the past two months. Just for reference, hosting costs me roughly $1,550 a year.”

    JB,

    That’s horrendous. A prime blog supported by subprime bloggers.

  32. BC Bob says:

    Clot [26],

    I’m not sure if it’s a race, a 100 yard dash or a jump out of the 100th floor?

  33. Cindy says:

    (29) BC
    “Can’t comment on that specific case…”

    Have you heard any allegations of out-and-out fraud like that?

  34. pricedOut says:

    Grim at 27:

    Why does hosting cost you $1550/year? Bandwidth?

  35. Confused says:

    This site has always been informative, but lately has only been a repository for news on the economy that is reported elsewhere…can we assume there is no NJ real estate news because there is no NJ real estate market?

  36. Cindy says:

    (10)
    “It was, rather, about a sense that the wrong people had inherited the earth.”

    Now I’m embarrased to say I spent 12 years in banking. I used to be so proud. In my day – fiduciary duty was everything…it was all about trust.

  37. Frank says:

    Manhattan Apartment Prices Extend Five-Year Gain.
    The median price of a condominium and co-op jumped 7.4 percent to $928,263, the second highest on record, they said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601213&sid=am9ZlNTiWbHs&refer=home

    Where’s the gloom and doom?

    Clotpoll,
    In case you missed the website for my hedge fund, here it is again:
    http://strategerycapital.com/index.php?slug=contact

  38. BC Bob says:

    Cindy,

    Hate to paint with a broad stroke but this whole fabricated run reeks of fraud; the fed, the sec, ib’s, rating agencies, etc..
    No need to elaborate. Kind of tired of repeating myself. Gotta run. Have a great day.

  39. TED @ 3.82. Ugh.
    Looks like the Fed is getting ready for a reverse repo this morning. Who are they trying to force out?

  40. No-farm drop of 159k in Sept.

  41. That should be non-farm.

  42. grim says:

    Bandwidth isn’t the big issue, its actually the cpu and ram required to run a high-usage wordpress install and the database back-end. Tried a number of lower cost providers and while they could support the bandwidth, they couldn’t provide me enough cycles and memory to run fast enough. Second most important to me is having a managed system. I don’t do any of the OS administration anymore, their techs take care of that, as well as troubleshooting outages and issues.

  43. John says:

    Cindy, I guess you friend learned what counterparty risk is. Good life lession that T + 3 your money is at risk of counterparty default. Even worse I think Lehman was marketing principal protected bonds that 100% guarnteed at least your principal back. Fine print sayst they were backed by Lehman. To lose 100% of your investment in a bond that was 100% guarnteed is a kick in the nuts. BTW just got off phone with DC and they are expecting a huge surge today and are making sure BDs can hand the flood of orders.

  44. Shore Guy says:

    So, I see that NY is planning on selling or leasing its lottery, highways, beidges, etc. I wonder how long before it comes to NJ and we are traveling on the Lukoil Parkway, the Exxon/Mobile Turnpike, etc. Maybe King John will be able to address the legislature from the Goldman Sachs Assembly Chamber at the Raytheon Capitol building, at the Toyota Capitol complex?

  45. grim says:

    This site has always been informative, but lately has only been a repository for news on the economy that is reported elsewhere…can we assume there is no NJ real estate news because there is no NJ real estate market?

    No, you should assume that the proprietor just hasn’t had the time to devote over the past two-three months. The blog doesn’t pay the bills, nor does real estate career, so I’m sure you all understand the need to go off and actually do some work.

    The good news is that the project I’ve been working on is now slowly winding down. I’ll have significantly more time to devote in the near future.

  46. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    U.S. Payrolls Fell 159,000 in September; Jobless Rate at 6.1%

    The U.S. lost the most jobs in five years in September and earnings rose less than forecast as the credit crisis deepened the economic slowdown.

    Payrolls fell by 159,000, more than anticipated, after a 73,000 decline in August, the Labor Department said today in Washington. The jobless rate, the last one reported before the presidential election, remained at 6.1 percent. Hours worked reached the lowest level since records began in 1964.

    The world’s largest economy may be headed for bigger job losses as the worst financial meltdown since the Great Depression causes consumers and companies to retrench. A sinking labor market and rising borrowing costs raise the odds Federal Reserve policy makers will cut interest rates by their Oct. 29 meeting.

    “The financial panic is a body blow to business confidence, and companies are now battening down the hatches,” Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com in West Chester, Pennsylvania, said before the report. “We’re in store for very sizable job losses across many industries. A rate cut by the Fed could come before the next meeting.”

    Revisions added 4,000 to payroll figures previously reported for August and July. The Labor Department said it was “unlikely” that Hurricane Ike, which struck the Gulf Coast last month, “had substantial effects” on payrolls figures.

    After today, the total decline in payrolls so far this year has reached 760,000. The economy created 1.1 million jobs in 2007.

  47. Shore Guy says:

    Any word on inventory in varoius places in NJ and the percentage of homes not selling before the expiration of the listing contract?

  48. Shore Guy says:

    Grim,

    That jobs report is a killer. I suspect that by the time 2008 ends we will have lost more jobs than were created in 07. What is the “natural growth rate for jobs in the US? I seem to recall it being north of a million, so unless the economy produces at least that number of jobs the unemployment rate rises just due to work-age population growth.

  49. Cindy says:

    (42) John

    I was talking to his wife so I didn’t get the real details but the words “100% principle guaranteed” did come up. I’m talking someone who would have said “I want no risk” so I have to figure his broker messed up as well – not just Lehman.

  50. Cindy says:

    (44) Grim – I’d say you have had “quite a year.”

  51. HEHEHE says:

    I guess the Wachovia CEO used his pick a payment merger option.

  52. Frank says:

    Grim,
    Why am I in moderation (#37)??

  53. Cindy says:

    Mason Slaine over @ Minyanville was
    suggesting that we pay builders not to build – decrease the supply… Like they do with crops.

    Figuring gross profits @ $50,000 per house -do it for 12-18 months -and anyone who ignored the ruling and did build a house would pay $50,000 per house in penalties.

  54. BC Bob says:

    As the stroke job/smoke screen continues in DC the economy is falling off a cliff. Don’t worry, Barney and his friends will soon melt the deep freeze. Keep focusing on that while the economy implodes.

    Forget about a loss of 159K and an unemployment rate of 6.1%. Believe that and there are a few bridges for sale.

    Those working part time increased by 337K to over 6M. Unfortunately, they can not find full time employment.

    The real unemployment rate, off balance sheet, is now at 11%.

    Can DC pease focus on the real problem and stop the dog and pony show?

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm

  55. Barbara says:

    Grim,
    any chance you could link to that NYT schaudenfreude piece?

  56. HEHEHE says:

    “Can DC pease focus on the real problem and stop the dog and pony show?”

    Come on BC, there’s no money in the “real problem”.

  57. chicagofinance says:

    grim Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 8:39 am
    No, you should assume that the proprietor just hasn’t had the time to devote over the past two-three months. The blog doesn’t pay the bills, nor does real estate career, so I’m sure you all understand the need to go off and actually do some work.

    grim: Maybe more focus on our NJ RE Report, and less on your stuff. Someone needs to straighten you out big time. AND BUY SOME TEE-SHIRTS (NO V-NECKS!)

  58. 3b says:

    #54 BC Bob:Hear some fellow Wall St guys talking on the train in this morning, about how the “rescue” package must be passed.

    Than in the very same breath lashing out at all the added pork the Senate added to the bill. I think that is kind of ironic or rich if you will.

    And here we have this morning Wells taking over Wachovia, no hysterics, no screaming that the bill must be passed, just the free market working.

    As a former Muni Short term trader/salesmen for many years in a prior life, and someone who is skeptical at best on this “rescue”, I find it pathetic that Wall St types including some on this board are screaming for this package.

    Back in the day, you took your lumps, good year you were paid handsomely, bad year you were not.

    Made a wrong trading bet, you licked your wounds,and did not do it again. Made a major screw up, you were fired.

  59. Rich In NNJ says:

    Frank (37),

    Where’s the gloom and doom?

    In the article of the link you posted:

    “Declining sales and rising inventory preceded lower home prices nationwide, spurring the nationwide housing recession. The city is bracing for a drop in property values after three of the city’s five largest investment banks collapsed since March.”


    “This crisis is so big and it’s still sorting itself out,” said Pamela Liebman, chief executive officer of the Corcoran Group, a Manhattan-based real estate brokerage that issued its own market report today.

    Same as we’ve always seen, slower sales precede lower prices. First in outlying areas moving closer to NYC.

  60. JF says:

    It is very frustrating when all four of our candidates for Pres./VP all parrot the same line about how Israel is an ally of the United States. I would like to hear them defend that claim. The AIPAC is a very strong lobby that has a disproportionate amount of power. It is evident everytime one of our politicians open their mouths. All we hear is how taxpayers are bearing too much burden for the war, for the proposed bailout. What about the taxpayer burden for the billions in aid to Israel since WWII?

  61. 3b says:

    #37 frank: It’s over Buddy.

  62. BC Bob says:

    “#54 BC Bob:Hear some fellow Wall St guys talking on the train in this morning, about how the “rescue” package must be passed.”

    3b,

    They would be better served if they spent their time studying a map of Dubai, Shanghai and Mumbai.

  63. Frank says:

    Rich,
    I have seen the gloom and doom talk for the last 10 years but prices are up big time.
    Talk to me when prices come down.

  64. PGC says:

    The wheels are coming off the EUR bus.

    European bank rescue plan in tatters amid savings stampede

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4870873.ece

    There is a great line here.

    There were rumours of large depositors demanding their money, including one German customer wanting an immediate €1.5billion.

    I wonder if they asked for $20s

  65. woody says:

    Palin proved last night that our political system is broken. How can this yahoo be one sniff away from the presidency?

  66. RayC says:

    This banks failing, that banks failing. How about I just prepay next years taxes by an extra $100,000 and wait for the refund. Will my money be safe there?

  67. Seneca says:

    60 JF

    I take it your handle doesn’t stand for “Jew Friend”?

  68. grim says:

    From CNN/Money:

    Manhattan real estate prices headed downward

    The average price of a Manhattan apartment ranged from $1.4 million to $1.48 million in the third quarter of 2008, according to separate reports released Friday by Brown Harris Stevens, the Corcoran Group, Halstead Property and Prudential Douglas Elliman. That represents an increase of anywhere between 8% and 12% over average apartment prices in the third quarter of 2007.

    But the rise in third quarter sale prices was skewed by a large number of deals in new luxury buildings, which went into contract as much as a year or two ago, before economic conditions deteriorated, but only closed recently, according to Corcoran Group CEO Pamela Liebman.

    “The average sales price is going to trend down,” Liebman said. After soaring to unprecedented heights in 2007, “we’re going to get back to a more normal range,” she added.

  69. Oy! says:

    The true responsibility for the mess?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAuOEdttjZQ

  70. woody says:

    holy crap the dow down 348 to start…eek

  71. Oy! says:

    Barney Frank –

    There’s a guy you want in charge of the Financial Services committee

    What a disgrace

  72. woody says:

    o never mind that was yesterday

  73. BC Bob says:

    “o never mind that was yesterday”

    Many probably wish they could say the same to their margin clerk.

  74. Rich In NNJ says:

    Frank (63),

    I have seen the gloom and doom talk for the last 10 years but prices are up big time.

    Ten years? 1998? You SEE talk, not hear it?
    You been talking to yourself?
    It didn’t start to get bubbly until ~2001.

    Talk to me when prices come down.

    When prices are down in NYC, you won’t be here.
    So far everything has been playing out as expected. Maybe if you just accept it you can learn something.

    But since you’re here now I’ll tell you this, prices ARE DOWN (not up “big time”) in NJ.

    NJMLS September Bergen COunty Data
    Year Med$
    2004 $460,000
    2005 $520,000
    2006 $491,000
    2007 $515,000
    2008 $465,000

  75. JF says:

    I take it your handle doesn’t stand for “Jew Friend”?

    You are totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with a dislike of any group or race. What has the nation of Israel done in it’s entire history to be considered an ally of the US?

  76. Jaw says:

    Off-Topic:

    Has anyone been to the Staten Island Children’s Museum? If so, would you recommend taking a 3 year old there?

  77. rhymingrealtor says:

    Clot,

    My 10yr old son’s response was -she keeps changing the subject? My 48 yearold husbands response-when he took a moment to walk in the room we were watching- was “She’s really pretty” They won’t know who’s actually pushing the levers in the voting booth if I send my son in with my husband , right?

    KL

  78. BC Bob says:

    Rich [75],

    What a complete imbecile. Ten years ago, 1998? I was a screaming bull, at that time. I’ve only been bearish since 2005. This blog did not exist prior to 2005. Maybe he should just sharpen his hedge clippers.

  79. Outofstater says:

    #55 Barbara – Here it is. I think the comments that followed were as good as the essay.

    http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/02/waiting-for-schadenfreude/

  80. kettle1 says:

    BC Bob, SAS

    the beauty of the system is that the majority of people think that they have a real choice by being offered either a Rep or Dem and fail to notice that they have been politically pavloved.

    in case someone isnt familiar with pavlov:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

  81. John says:

    National City and SOV shares are up 300% since Monday. Guess they think the bail out is passing and Citi now that it lost WB is looking for another bank. NCC would be a brokered deal and for some strange quirk savings bank deposits don’t count as deposits when a CB takes them over so it does not need regulatory approval if Citi, Chase or BOA buys it since all three are already over the deposit limit but magically savings bank deposits don’t count.

  82. stan says:

    #75

    Rich in NNJ.

    Thanks for Posting, at 2004 median….interesting

  83. RemainCalmALLISWeLL says:

    @bewm #68. That is the most depressing thing I have ever seen. wow. I’m shocked. just…wow.

  84. John says:

    Wells Fargo Sneaks Into Wachovia, Steals It From Citi (WFC, WB, C, SOV, NCC, FITB)
    Wachovia Corp. (NYSE: WB) is now in play as Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC) has come out with an alternative merger deal in a stock for stock merger offer for all of Wachovia including all banking operations. Wells Fargo has reached an agreement to acquire all of Wachovia Corporation and all its businesses and obligations, including its preferred equity and indebtedness, and all its banking deposits.

    The ratio offered is 0.1991 shares of Wells Fargo stock. This is an alternative merger from the Citigroup (NYSE: C) government assisted buyout. Wells Fargo will record Wachovia’s credit-impaired assets at fair value. Wells Fargo claims it needs no financial assistance from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation or any other government agency. Wells Fargo will also issue $20 billion in new securities to shore up its liquidity as well.

    What is interesting here is that this may actually be a game changer for the banking sector. It has two paths that could come from it. First, the FDIC hasn’t keyed in on this. We do not know if the FDIC will step in yet to say the original Citi deal has already been reached or if either part will make a lawsuit out of this. Second, this could put other troubled banks into play. Sovereign Bancorp (NYSE: SOV), National City Corporation (NYSE: NCC), and Fifth Third Bancorp (NASDAQ: FITB) are all trading higher on this in hopes that Citi or others will step in now and snatch them up. This might even mean there is something left for the common shareholders there too.

    Wells Fargo closed at $3.91 yesterday and shares are up above $6.00 in early trading reaction to this announcement. Citigroup is trading down about 6% in early trading on this. You snooze, you lose.

  85. kettle1 says:

    No Article link:

    But greece has now follow ireland and backed all bank deposits. If this keeps happening the euro is in a lot of trouble.

  86. rhymingrealtor says:

    Can someone tell me who pays the NTSB for the investigation into Steve Fosset’s deatch? Why do they have to piece together a private plane to find out why it went down? He and his plane were not responsible for any death’s but his own. Will his family be responsible for the bill?

    KL

  87. Tom says:

    Here’s the video that shows the clip they are talking about as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz-d6WPTXa8

    Frank doesn’t say it was “their not the best investments long term”, just that he thinks things will get better.

    6 years of a republican congress and republican president and they’re blaming the dems for not getting regulation for the GSE’s done in 2005. It’s nuts.

  88. Rich In NNJ says:

    Bob (79),

    I think I’m wasting my time. With all that has and is unfolding you’d think the fog would lift from his eyes already (or would it be ears?).

    Stan (82),

    That’s SFH only. I’ll post more soon.

  89. kettle1 says:

    Credit-default swaps on Hartford jumped 165 basis points to a mid-price of 675 basis points, according to broker Phoenix Partners Group. Contracts on Prudential rose 125 basis points to 617 basis points, while MetLife climbed 97 basis points to 583 basis points, CMA Datavision prices show.

    “We don’t have a lot of leeway on time,” Reid told reporters after a luncheon in Washington. “One of the individuals in the caucus today talked about a major insurance company — a major insurance company — one with a name that everyone knows that’s on the verge of going bankrupt. That’s what this is all about.”

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/10/major-insurance-company-on-verge-of.html

  90. kettle1 says:

    Cindy,

    Uh-oh

    The California Public Employees’ Retirement System, the pension fund used to pay the retirements of millions of government employees, has lost $24.9 billion over the last three months. The 10.4 percent loss is less than the Standard & Poor’s 500, which dropped 13.6 percent in that time.

    If the losses continue, California taxpayers could be faced with demands to make up shortfalls in funding the giant pension system. On Monday alone, a dive in the stock markets wiped out $7.8 billion of the pension fund’s investments.

    http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/09/30/business/z3c8e31e8925b260a882574d0005d1e37.txt

  91. laurie says:

    Rich/#75..have you seen the uptick in houses for sale here in NW Bergen?? Prices are varied but more and more I am noticing 2 million and up and several in the 1.+ range. A lot of 2 million dollar homeowners are downsizing to 1 million $ homes to drop their living expenses. In a town like Mahwah you have an advantage because the housing stock ranges so much in price you can really downsize and stay in the same school district.

  92. Cindy says:

    Kettle (90) – Thanks..
    Yeah – found it on Mish this AM -see my #12

  93. Mitchell says:

    I should have played Palin bingo instead of doing a shot every time someone said Maverick.

  94. Tom says:

    Mitchell 94,

    That sounds dangerous.

    I’m a maverick, I won’t answer your question I’ll recite the answer to another question that I already memorized.

  95. Rich In NNJ says:

    Laurie,

    I’ll do some comparisons for Mahwah but even though it’s a large town the transaction numbers are to small for a true comparison.

  96. Veto says:

    Clot, (or anyone else)
    Question for you?
    Is it legal/ethical/wise to include the most recent case shiller index report and other real estate market commentary, possibly from Meredith Whitney predicting prices coming down another 25%, in a lowball offer? I am working with bank on a short sale and they keep trying to convince me that things arent that bad and prices will stabilize. Instead of arguing with them I would like to simply enclose a couple recent articles so they know why I am offering 20% off their asking price. Is that a bad/good idea? Thanks in advance.

  97. Shore Guy says:

    “Why do they have to piece together a private plane to find out why it went down? He and his plane were not responsible for any death’s but his own. ”

    KL,

    This is easy. There are a limited number of firms that manufacture avionics and other aircraft comppnents. These products find themselves crossing platforms: general aviation (private planes); commercial aviation; and mil-air — especially with the DoDs focus on COTS (commercial off-the-shelf components).

    It becomes important for the aviation industry to know whether which, if any, component failed in order to determine whether it could take down a commercial airliner or a stealth bomber.

  98. Tom says:

    By the way, here’s an interview with Oxley about the GSE’s. And remember he’s a republican.

    He fumes about the criticism of his House colleagues. “All the handwringing and bedwetting is going on without remembering how the House stepped up on this,” he says. “What did we get from the White House? We got a one-finger salute.”

    The bill the administration wanted would have but the GSE’s under the supervision of the treasury which is under administrative control and not the OFHEO which is under congressional control.

  99. Tom says:

    Rich,

    Wondering if you got my email? I think it would be good to look at BC numbers broken down by town. From what I’ve been reading, the slow down had been greater in lower income towns and that is possibly contributing to median prices in BC not appearing to fall in line with sales.

  100. 3b says:

    #100 Tom:From what I’ve been reading, the slow down had been greater in lower income towns.

    I would think that with all that has unfolded,and will continue to unfold, that the upper tier towns are/will be feeling this.

    From my quick looks on the mls, there is alot of inventory in Glen Rock, Ridgewood, Upper Saddle River, Saddle River, Wyckoff, and Franklin Lakes.

    These are all or were all considered to be desireable Wall St. towns.

  101. HEHEHE says:

    Republican clowns just on CNBC, way they were talking made it sound like it’s going to pass. That Boehner jack@ss says thenks to their efforts its a better bill. I guess he means there’s more pork;)

  102. Rich In NNJ says:

    September NJMLS Bergen County Data

    Year Med$ #Sold #U/C
    1990 $207,000 447 333
    1991 $200,000 620 552
    1992 $195,000 611 622
    1993 $209,750 770 776
    1994 $205,000 756 642
    1995 $200,000 721 689
    1996 $190,000 705 690
    1997 $210,000 841 770
    1998 $218,500 886 755
    1999 $236,599 842 598
    2000 $260,000 803 770
    2001 $298,250 732 587
    2002 $342,000 828 774
    2003 $372,000 1039 908
    2004 $410,000 952 885
    2005 $489,965 951 832
    2006 $450,000 681 695
    2007 $472,500 590 503
    2008 $418,000 535 512

  103. galgon says:

    Kettle (85)

    How does guaranteeing all deposits in the EU kill the Euro? I thought that would cause people to run to the Euro and kill the dollar.

  104. Tom says:

    3b,

    As I wrote in one of my posts, some towns in bergen county saw declines in sales as high as 70%. Those were the lower-income towns.

    With lower income towns not selling, that should mean lower priced homes not factored into BC’s median which means that BC’s median price does not tell the full story.

  105. still_looking says:

    Rich in NNJ,

    What’s going on with 240 Paramus? Don’t see a lot of activity there…

    Thanks in advance

    sl

  106. chicagofinance says:

    from a contact who created MBS from 2004-2007

    Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 10:19 AM
    To: Jordan Celkupa

    sure, we can talk about it. what’s your work number?
    i’m not sure what the final decision will be, and i’m happy that the wooden arrows are still cheap, but I think the banks that have already mark to marketed themselves and are surviving will be the winners and those that have not done that yet or going to be in a world of hurt. its the banks the choose not to participate in this that you ahve to worry about.

  107. John says:

    http://www.meettheboss.tv/broadcast/Financial-Services/Nick-Jayanetti-MeetTheBoss.tv

    Cindy, head of op risk BOA on Oct 15 doing a webcast on bank risk mgt, good stuff for your poker friends.

  108. HEHEHE says:

    Hahaha, they just had Gasparino on talking about the Wachovia/Wells/Citi clusterf*ck. Turns out while the Wells deal is better for everyone the Citi/Bergabe deal had an exclusivity agreement and Citi is going to sue. See what happens when the government gets involved in sh*t they have no business being involved in the first place? See what happens when you swing these secret deals with little or no public documentation? WTF is a board director supposed to do at Wachovia when they are offered a learly better deal for their shareholders and are likely to get sued if they take the Bergabe deal? Way to go Bennie?

  109. chicagofinance says:

    Basically regardless of your philosophical take on this bill, it is going to act like sunlight and disinfect. Those roaches that stay in the wall are going to die.

  110. chicagofinance says:

    HEHEHE Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 10:32 am
    WTF is a board director supposed to do at Wachovia when they are offered a learly better deal for their shareholders and are likely to get sued if they take the Bergabe deal? Way to go Bennie?

    HEHEHE: it just a money grab for C….give them some money and they will go away….just an IQ test…

  111. John says:

    http://www.henleyonhudson.com/

    It is 2006 on this Condo sales site.

  112. BC Bob says:

    Rich [103],

    Approx 15% off peak. Well, that’s a start. Thanks as always. Good to see some RE news on this site.

  113. Rich In NNJ says:

    StillLooking (106),

    I know the property sold as Baker wants to build 68 townhouses which would require NUMEROUS variances. They have had one town meeting in Ridgewood last week. I believe the next is scheduled for Oct. 23.

    You’ve probably seen the signs “Stop the 68 Baker Townhouses” or something to that effect along Paramus/East Saddle River Road from Rt 17 to Wearimus.

  114. Rich In NNJ says:

    Bob (113),

    I can’t wait for this election to be over!

  115. Shore Guy says:

    I don’t know if the news media have it yet but it looks like there will be a vote before 1 (1ish) today.

  116. Rich In NNJ says:

    Tom (100),

    Sorry, didn’t see your email. I replied, but to sum up it’s TOO time consuming.

  117. Shore Guy says:

    90 minutes of debate and a vote sometime before 1 p.m.

  118. BC Bob says:

    Rich [117],

    While you are at it, can you home brew some Guinness for me?

  119. dblko says:

    A typical offer has a mortgage contingency.

    Assuming one does not need a mortgage, what are the pitfalls in waiving it in order to beat out a competing offer?

    I guess it makes it more difficult to back out of the deal in case of buyers regret.

  120. Mitchell says:

    #95 The Maverick drinking game was going well until Biden tore into the Maverick comments.

    Overall I thought she did well and it was a good plan to keep her scripted but try and appear as if she was not scripted with the side remarks. Toward the end she started to get that deer in the headlights look but I actually feel Biden kept her in the debate instead of taking her out.

    I don’t hate Palin but her foreign diplomacy just doesn’t exist. Can anyone honestly see her doing her wink and smile with a foreign country that despises women and getting a positive result. I’m all for a woman but some third world countries need to grow up and Palin doesn’t appear to be a strong enough woman to accomplish this.

  121. Victorian says:

    Chifi(110) –
    “Basically regardless of your philosophical take on this bill, it is going to act like sunlight and disinfect. Those roaches that stay in the wall are going to die.”

    – This is true under the assumption that the treasury buys these securities at market prices. But the price discovery in this case is at the discretion of the Treasury Secretary. As pointed out by numerous economists, market prices will not help the banks to recapitalize themselves. In fact, Bernanke himself said this in his testimony.
    I sure am hoping that this process is entirely transparent, with transactions posted for the public to see, but I am not holding my breath.

  122. John says:

    The american people are like a five year old boy, you can do what he wants but it does not mean it is the right thing to do. Congress is being forced to choose between what the voter wants and what the voter needs and in DC all they care about is getting re-elected so they might just do what the voter wants instead of what we need.

    So I guess they will let the little boy have 15 happy meals and ride the ferris wheel and worry about the vommiting and runs later on.

  123. John says:

    Bank of America Corp., General Motors Corp. and United Technologies Corp. climbed more than 3 percent as futures traders bet the Fed will lower its benchmark rate by as much as 0.75 percentage point at its next meeting. Wachovia Corp. rallied 77 percent after Wells Fargo & Co., the biggest West Coast bank, agreed to buy the lender for about $15.1 billion. National City Corp. climbed 27 percent and Sovereign Bancorp Inc. added 13 percent.

  124. skep-tic says:

    #4

    “California is the biggest of several state governments across the country that are locked out of the bond market by the global credit crunch, the paper said.”

    I know I am a broken record here, but everyone who thinks they are insulated from the credit collapse is just not seeing the big picture. even supposedly super safe gov’t employees aren’t safe, so why would you assume you won’t be affected?

  125. skep-tic says:

    #10

    “A couple of years ago, at the height of the boom, a friend in New York publishing described to me the indignities of being a five-figure employee commuting daily from suburban New Jersey on trains packed with traders, stock brokers and hedge-fund types.

    “These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,” he said. “And now they’re earning millions and millions – in bonuses alone.” ”

    typical moronic snob attitude of someone who is not half as smart as he thinks he is

  126. kettle1 says:

    john 123

    Unfortunately it is not that simple, and i am sure you are aware of that.

    There is some of that certainly. But there are also many other issues. For example some people see the current system as too flawed to save. We can also talk about moral hazard. The bailout in the form that bernanke and paulson wanted was complete BS

  127. jcer says:

    Skep, unfortunately or not a lot of incredibly dumb people on Wall Street made a lot of money. That is not to say all of them or most of them are this way but many of the Wall Street people are far, far away from our nations brightest and they were making huge salaries and bonuses.

  128. Tom says:

    Did any one catch Brad Sherman’s speech last night?

    Can’t find a video of it online but he claims half the bailout will go to foreign investors.

    Also told his other congressmen to ignore some of the calls they’ve been getting recently that are pro-bailout. Says that at first calls were 20-1 against. Now only 3-1 against and he claims it’s because of people in the financial sector being told by their bosses to call their reps while at work. Basically paid to call against the bailout.

  129. rhymingrealtor says:

    Thanks Shore guy, for the reason/answer.

    Chifi,

    That’s a good understandable answer and ever brought a smile to my face when I remembered my first apt. It was 2 aprts above a deli, me and the guy next door who worked nights. I kept my lights on 24/7 he had his always off because he was gone at night and slept during the day. So while I did’nt see the roaches I knew where they were……

    KL

  130. kettle1 says:

    Tom,

    a sizable chunk of thew bailout could go to foreign banks. Paulson has fought to keep that option open in the bill. The idea is to help European banks since the ECB cannot take action like the FED and treasury have. German, Spanish, Irish banks can sell their bad paper to their american subsidiaries and the subsidiary can then turnaround and sell it to the treasury, there by allowing the US treasury to bailout band paper in foreign banks.
    AIG was apparently bailout out because it would have hit germany very hard. They had 300+ billion at stake in AIG

  131. skep-tic says:

    #128

    jcer– I have met plenty of people like the publishing snob quoted in the NYTimes above. They choose careers based on intellectual fulfillment/idealism and then blame the world when they do not end up rich. They looked down on everyone who was more practical minded in college, who had no more grandiose goals than having a good time and making a good living. Now these people belatedly realize that they simply fell for their own BS act a long time ago and that the people who they thought were so dumb (the “frat guys”) actually may have had more foresight. The truth is there are very few professions in which one needs to be a genius. Few people on Wall St. are, but so are few people in publishing.

  132. BC Bob says:

    skep[125],

    I know I am also a broken record. The fed and world’s cb’s have pumped over $3T into the banking system. For the 1st time ever, the fed’s balance sheet is north of $1T. Despite this, libor and the ted spread continue to rise. Banks continue to hoard cash. Nobody wants to lend in an environment where the attached collateral continues to deteoriate. If your #ss was on the line would you take a leap of faith?

    More food for thought. As you are well aware, hedgies are imploding left and right. Current estimates has their ins exposure at approx $14T. Recent estimates indicate the entire industry, hedge, has $2.5B under management. Remember risk is sold out the front door, then beelines through the back door.

    Should we halt the proceedings and bring this little tidbit to the table?

    Once more, how does a $700B package, loaded with pork, thaw these markets?

  133. leftwing says:

    Who was posting yesterday on the CNBC talking heads not having a clue what they’re reporting?

    Just had a big ROFLMAO with Gasparino reporting that Citi will file a lawsuit for ‘torturous’ interference.

    No, Charlie, what Wells did was tortious intereference; ‘torturous interference’ is what those bozos in DC are attempting to do with your cheerleading.

  134. kettle1 says:

    BC Bob,

    Dont forget that that so called 700B package is actually a 700B revolving credit line. Paulson could run up a 10 trillion tab as long as he doesnt hold more then 700B at any one time.

    They know that they would need 10+ trillion but could never ask for it. instead ask for a tax payer funded credit card!

  135. John says:

    Once again, this ain’t about stock market, Real Estate, Jobs etc. This is about saving the banks and stopping a credit crisis where even AAA GE bonds are 7.5%. GE pretty much sells everything. They were borrowing at 3.5 now they are borrowing at 7.5% which means in 2009 they will have to raise prices by 4% and lay off people. The million of manufacturers go get GE products will tack on the 4% plus their own 4% for their added credit costs and soon everything will be 8% more, but that is ok you won’t have a job or be able to get a loan anyhow. Our parents were not driving ten year old pintos, vegas, darts, mavericks and novas for fun. That is what you drive when the economy is tight, your job is in jepordy, raises are one percent and you can’t get a loan.

  136. skep-tic says:

    #103

    wow– we are at 1991 sales level. thanks for the data

  137. lisoosh says:

    JF Says:
    “You are totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with a dislike of any group or race. What has the nation of Israel done in it’s entire history to be considered an ally of the US?”

    Apart from providing intelligence, sharing sophisticated weapons technology and doing the US’s dirty work in the region (bombing Iraqi Nuclear facilities) for instance?
    Add in that the vast majority of the money “provided” by the US is actually earmarked to be spent on American made armaments (Jobs for Americans, money that flows back into the US economy, Israel agrees not to purchase from other nations) and mostly loan guarantees – not actual US taxpayer cash.

    That said. I would actually prefer Israel not to take US money. Then they wouldn’t be beholden to the US.

    And for your information. AIPAC is an AMERICAN lobby group, not Israeli and a huge percentage of their major supporters and members are actually Apocalyptic Evangelical Christians who want to hasten armaggedon.

    A “friend” who wants you to burn for eternity is no friend as far as I can see, so feel free to attack the Evangelical Right.

  138. Victorian says:

    John –

    I do not think anybody is arguing about the need for the bailout. I think everybody cannot understand how this is going to work.
    If the need is for the banks to be recapitalized, we should go the Buffet route. Inject equity.

    Why are the banks not agreeing to the Buffet deal?

  139. renter says:

    132
    Perhaps the larger point is that people in professions outside of the financial sector should be able to live a middle class life. People understand that if they go into teaching or pediatrics that they will never be rich. They just didn’t expect to be so squeezed by astronomical rises in housing, health care and education.

  140. skep-tic says:

    #109

    “WTF is a board director supposed to do at Wachovia when they are offered a learly better deal for their shareholders and are likely to get sued if they take the Bergabe deal? Way to go Bennie?”

    anybody know if there was there a reverse break up fee? if so, should be pretty straightforward– pay the fee and expenses and move on

  141. PeaceNow says:

    skeptic–

    did you read the whole article? Here’s another snippet:

    Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats — the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries — are taking us down with them.

    The very wealthiest are, as always, likely to do just fine. Real, hard-core Wall Street, as Tom Wolfe reminded us last weekend, long ago decamped for the hedge funds of Greenwich. The political leaders who allowed this mess to develop have turned into the great defenders of “Main Street.” (If I have to hear the juxtaposition of “Main Street” and “Wall Street” one more time, I will be the one drowning in a pool of vomit.). It’s a whole host of other people — vulnerable middle class homeowners and small business owners and, now, universities unable to make payroll — who are hurting.

  142. Rich In NNJ says:

    Still Looking (106),

    From a June article on NorthJersey.com

    Ridgewood residents oppose townhouse project

  143. BC Bob says:

    kettle [135],

    Yes, the granddaddy of exploding arm’s.

  144. jcer says:

    Ah, Skep I get it, I know who you are talking about and they too frequently are not super bright. I was friends with a lot of these types of people in college and they had no grasp of the practical, I studied engineering and they had no conception as to how much work and how difficult it is. They though it was easier because the answer is definite as opposed to liberal arts where many times there are no answers. What a joke!

  145. kettle1 says:

    Rep. Brad Sherman explains how the House was threatened with martial law if they didn’t vote for the bailout [video]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8

  146. Laughing all the way says:

    Got t-boned yesterday by a woman who is just 12 years away from 100. she ran a red light … my car totaled. fun.

    hope it isn’t the same woman who drilled John this summer.

    i saw someone posted this link recently.

    http://portal.hud.gov/portal/page?_pageid=73,3947211&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

    anyone call yet? i just passed it on to a relative.

  147. skep-tic says:

    #140

    “Perhaps the larger point is that people in professions outside of the financial sector should be able to live a middle class life. People understand that if they go into teaching or pediatrics that they will never be rich. They just didn’t expect to be so squeezed by astronomical rises in housing, health care and education.”

    renter, I can accept that and agree. But there is something bigger than this in the NYTimes piece, and it is the sense of many people who believe themselves to be intellectuals that the world simply does not recognize their true worth (which, of course, is very high in their minds). As we say here all the time, the seller does not set the price– the buyer does.

  148. NJLifer says:

    75 Rich In NNJ,

    Do you have the monthly breakdown over the same time period?

  149. Anon E. Moose says:

    @[120]

    The mortgage contingency usually comes with its own contingencies, like passing inspection and marketable (insurable) title. As long as you’re not waiving the inspection and title clauses, it shouldn’t make a difference to you.

    Or offer to waive the mortgage clause for $10,000. how sure is the seller that his other suitor can close the deal? Are they willing to bet $10,000 on it?

    Stories like these of house negotiations really shed light on how house buyers get sold a pig in a poke more ofthen than anyone realizes.

  150. Confused In NJ says:

    The Bailout is now billed as aiding Main Street, yet it really is directed at Wall Street. In the same manner that bailing out AIG directly helped Goldman & company. Paulson needs to specifically show, “who gets the money”, and how that “unfreezes credit”, with no “direct benefit to his buddys”.

  151. Rich In NNJ says:

    NJLifer (149),

    I’m putting together a Q1 – Q3 for the same period.
    Also, check post 103.

  152. Essex says:

    148…I think many people do not want to make a living in the grinding and contentious world of commerce. And now….fewer will. Many people who made very good salaries will have to find work elsewhere. Good luck.

  153. Hard Place says:

    Article from the NY Times. This does not sound at all like the current situation in NYC. /sarcasm off.

    After the stock market crash of 1987, it took two years for Manhattan real estate prices to drop, according to Mr. Miller.

    When they did drop, the market became more troubled because the slowdown coincided with developers taking advantage of tax incentives to build thousands of new apartments. At the same time, thousands of rentals were being converted into co-ops. Many builders had concentrated on building only smaller apartments that were attractive to investors looking to rent them out. All of this inventory meant that it took until the mid-1990s for prices to recover from overbuilding.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/nyregion/03real.html

  154. Nom Deplume says:

    Investors Rake It In by Shorting New Jersey

    This from CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/id/15837548/cid/97916/sh/3

    Explains why my MMMKT fund took off, and why my closed end funds are getting pounded.

  155. BC Bob says:

    “Our parents were not driving ten year old pintos, vegas, darts, mavericks and novas for fun. That is what you drive when the economy is tight, your job is in jepordy, raises are one percent and you can’t get a loan.”

    John,

    Them the breaks. Nodody is entitled to prosperity, you earn it.

    It’s very easy. Time to revamp; needs, wants or desires? Out with bling in with things.

    Maybe the masses just won’t be able to lease a new car, that they can not afford, every 2-3 years. That 20K exotic vacation, on the cc? How about a bungaloo at the lake? A $300 handbag? Ask grandma to knit a sack. Pavlov’s dog did it. Can the American consumer stop salivating? Probably, when they discover consumption will be fueled by savings.

    So, in other words, the economy is perpetually immune to a recession? Think of the early 90’s, opening act?

    By the way, I just bought a 1999 Volvo S70.

  156. Hard Place says:

    NYC apt market…

    Stock market crashing? Check!
    Developers taking advantage of 421 incentives? Check!
    Rentals converted to condos? Check!
    Developers building for people looking for pied a terre? Check!
    Excess inventory in Manhattan? Check!
    Decline in NYC apt prices? TBD…

  157. skep-tic says:

    #139

    “I do not think anybody is arguing about the need for the bailout. I think everybody cannot understand how this is going to work.
    If the need is for the banks to be recapitalized, we should go the Buffet route. Inject equity.

    Why are the banks not agreeing to the Buffet deal?”

    I know that one problem is that there are big regulatory barriers to investing in banks. you are essentially forced to be a minority investor unless you are already a bank due to bank holding company law. obviously, few banks have the funds to do the necessary recapitalizations, so the capital has to come from outside the industry. but people with that kind of money (mainly private equity) want control. there is also a doctrine called the source of strength doctrine which requires investors in banks to act as a sort of backstop. so you are forced to be a minority investor and act as a backstop and it is thus a very risky position to put yourself in as an investor. buffet has gone after the gold standard in goldman sachs, which may not even remain a bank holding company for long after the storm clears (they don’t really have any deposits) and because there are no deposits there is less downside risk for buffet to be forced to act as a source of strength. basically, this is an atypical investment compared to many other institutions in need of outside funds currently.

  158. Victorian says:

    Anyone know what is the news on TOL. The market is rallying and TOL is down??

  159. John says:

    Crazy market, everyone is jumping in. There is a lot of cash on sidelines, special situtation trading accounts, hedge funds, retail investors cash on the side and it is going to flow back in, watch it today. Record amount of retail muni bonds bought yesterday, cash was king but you got to jump in. I am still a little chicken. I did just buy a 4 year American Express Bond at 8.75% YTM, but that was just scraps.

  160. John says:

    I hate those people, problem is the people who saved and saved and thought their money in the bank, money market money, ARS money, pref stock money, muni bond money and investment grade bond money were safe are getting killed. These guys never participated in the boom they sat home and saved. The bail out is to bail out those folks not the deadbeats.

    BC Bob Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
    “Our parents were not driving ten year old pintos, vegas, darts, mavericks and novas for fun. That is what you drive when the economy is tight, your job is in jepordy, raises are one percent and you can’t get a loan.”

  161. Pine_brook says:

    Paulson may be thinking like this. Just borrow trillions from chinese and other asians for this bailout and default on them later! Is this a crazy idea?

  162. skep-tic says:

    #159

    couple of clarifications to my post above: first, source of strength only applies if you get control of a bank. but it is still a big impediment to making an investment. second, majority of banks in this country have assets of $100M or less (see somewhat dated link below). Lets say the typical distressed bank right now needs $20M in new capital. Seems to me that few investors right now are lining up to do that kind of deal. The diligence is time consuming and expensive and the potential payoff is limited. Most PE funds have limited size of investments they are allowed to make. In short, I do not believe that outside capital is coming to the rescue of most distressed banks a la buffet

    http://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/working/wp2003_07/index.html#fig04

  163. Seneca says:

    lisooth [138]

    Re: taxpayer burden due to US – Israel alliance

    To your list of what Israel has done for the US lately I would add:
    * Consistently provides evidence to terrorist groups that a “spoiled” Western society will withstand barrages of rocket and suicide bomber attacks on its civilians and maintain an unfaltering resolution to fight
    * Exposed Syria’s role in supporting terror by facilitating the transport of Iranian weapons to Hizbullah and supplying its own long-range weaponry to this terror group
    * The US and Israel cooperate extensively on defense, intelligence and economic matters. By doing so, they advance their common interests of promoting freedom, fighting extremism, and seeking peace and prosperity.
    * The anti-western, anti-American groups Hamas and Hizbullah are kept in check via Israel’s military strength in the Mediterranean region without the need for American military support. Contrast this with the situation in the Gulf where there is no Israel-equivalent and where are tax money is being spent to support the US troops.
    * The Arrow ballistic missile defense system was the result of a joint program with Israel’s high tech military industry. Development costs were shared equally between a country whose population is 7.3 million and its ally the US, population 305 million.
    * Real-time intelligence on terrorist groups and expertise in counter-terrorism
    * Unmanned aerial vehicle technology
    * Radar decoy technology
    * Billions of dollars in trade between the countries

  164. Rich In NNJ says:

    NJMLS Q1-Q3 Bergen County Data

    Year Med$ #Sold #U/C
    2004 $405,500 7,950 8,667
    2005 $465,000 8,136 8,785
    2006 $480,000 6,528 7,453
    2007 $475,000 6,486 7,181
    2008 $450,000 4,815 5,667

  165. Rich In NNJ says:

    Laurie (91),

    NJMLS Q1-Q3 Mahwah Data

    Year Med$ #Sold #U/C #Active
    2004 $412,500 325 339 140
    2005 $474,900 313 343 149
    2006 $477,500 280 314 219
    2007 $470,000 263 300 203
    2008 $428,000 226 279 174

  166. ricky_nu says:

    #128

    Hey if you are smart and doing something where you don’t make a lot of dough (say engineering), change it (if that is important to you). If you are so smart, you shouldn’t have a problem getting into the Wall Street industry (or tech, or whatever great gig is next) and bringing home your own big bacon, if that is your objective. I don’t have any sympathy for anyone who choses to complain/resent, not act, on their disatisfaction with personal results. Personally I would rather be selling sodas on the beach in San Diego, but that will not pay the rent.

    It is a free country, and chances are that you don’t make the rules, but you are free to play by them.

  167. skep-tic says:

    #163

    “Paulson may be thinking like this. Just borrow trillions from chinese and other asians for this bailout and default on them later! Is this a crazy idea?”

    don’t leave out the middle east!

  168. ricky_nu says:

    BTW – I agree that housing is overpriced, and that regular people in good jobs which require an invesment in education (or just plain work hard) should be able to afford a decent home. This is not necessarily the case these days.

  169. kettle1 says:

    College investment fund frozen
    Wachovia Bank says it will liquidate a fund used by about 1,000 colleges and private schools to help pay bills.

    NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) — An investment fund that serves about 1,000 colleges and private schools partially froze withdrawals this week amid the credit crunch, forcing colleges to develop new plans to pay bills.

    Wachovia Bank (WB, Fortune 500), trustee for the $9.3 billion Short Term Fund offered by Commonfund, said Monday it was terminating the fund and establishing a process to ensure the orderly liquidation and distribution of the fund’s assets. Wachovia initially told investors Monday that they could only withdraw 10% of their money, but that figure was increased to 34% by Wednesday and 37% by Thursday.

    Commonfund, a Wilton, Conn.-based nonprofit that advises colleges and schools on money management, also said Thursday it put a 30% limit on withdrawals from its Intermediate Term Fund after investors in the Short Term Fund tried to withdraw money from that fund, said Keith Luke, managing director of Commonfund.

    About 200 colleges and universities have about $1 billion in the intermediate fund, which is used for long-term needs, such as equipment plant purchases, he said.

    “We just didn’t have the liquidity in the fund to do that,” Luke said. “We will relax that as soon as market conditions permit.”

  170. Tom says:

    So a couple in buffalo want to buy a house and ask their local news team for an unbiased opionion.

    And the news team asks a realtor and mortgage professional.

    Guess what! It’s a great time to buy.

    Great reporting there.

    http://www.wivb.com/Global/story.asp?S=9115012

  171. Confused In NJ says:

    Interesting, the House will pass the Bill, even though the Majority are against it, and this should make the Public feel they have done the right thing? Dysfunctional?

  172. jcer says:

    Rick_nu #168 I do work for a WS bank, because they pay more than engineering. That is not the point the point is practical things like engineering were not in favor in the US which is sad as we at one point led the world in many areas and are at risk of losing this to the Chinese and Indians because americans are lazy.

  173. John says:

    IT PASSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  174. LATW says:

    what a joke. we’re f’d

    buckle up!!

  175. 3b says:

    #175 John: And now all will be well???????????????

  176. Clotpoll says:

    veto (97)-

    If a bank owns it, it is not a short sale. Banks will not get involved in negotiating a short sale until the borrower has a binding contract that has been submitted with financials and a hardship letter.

    If you are negotiating with a bank for an REO, or negotiating with a bank on a short sale in which your contract has already been submitted with appropriate documentation, good luck. It is doubtful anything you furnish will sway someone who may be locked into a price and negotiating position by bank policy. Many of these mitigators and negotiators have no choice but to parrot the party line and hold out for X price. They are not paid to think and make decisions.

    The people who get paid to do that are the ones who want the gubmint to buy their worthless MBS. They’re a little tied up right now.

  177. randy says:

    john-

    enough with the predictions already, you’re not good at those we’ve seen your recent track record is really bad.

    also, enough with the justifications for the bailout already… you sound like trying to convince yourself more than anyone on this board that the bailout is the right move… it’s taking the tone of a madman trying to convince himself he’s not crazy…

    it’s obvious you’re just rooting for what’s best for your wallet. well, just leave it at that then.

  178. John says:

    I actually don’t even understand what an Engineer does, something with a slide rule and little models I imagine.

    Anyhow I never had the luxury of doing that type of work. Had to work all through HS and College so no time for all that studying and I needed a higher paying job to support my family.

    I guess rich folk are engineers as they are ok with making less money so they can do what they like all day.

  179. John says:

    House caps momentous week, voting 263-171 to pass $700B bailout – one of the most sweeping financial interventions in U.S. history.

    God Bless America, the godless commies who did not want the bill won’t get the great depression.

  180. Steve says:

    Clot,

    Out of the gulag in 3 days!

    We’ll see!

  181. John says:

    Next up a big rate cut and the tax break for savings banks who bought fannie/freddie pref stock.

    Before the vote, Fed Funds futures trading on the Chicago Board of Trade showed a 78 percent chance the central bank will reduce its target rate for overnight bank loans by a half- percentage point to 1.5 percent by its Oct. 29 meeting and 22 percent odds of a 0.75 percentage-point cut.

    “We wouldn’t be surprised to see the Fed cut rates 50 points even before the next scheduled meeting,” James Shugg, a senior economist at Westpac Banking Corp. in London, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. “It actually helps boost, to some extent, bank profitability. An interest-rate cut is an important part of the solution to the current serious problems confronting the U.S. economy.”

  182. kettle1 says:

    john 180

    what??????????? did you start the weekend early with a bowl of the gooey green in celebration of the bailout passing?

  183. NJGator says:

    132 Skep – I work in publishing, and can readily concur that there are very few geniuses in the field.

  184. skep-tic says:

    #180

    “I guess rich folk are engineers as they are ok with making less money so they can do what they like all day.”

    not sure it applies to engineers, but this is what frustrates me. people who consciously choose a lower paying career for intellectual fulfillment or easier worklife then complain when others who work probably double the number of hrs they do and spend years dealing with mindless crap end up making more money. both people are making trade offs, but the recognition that there is generally a real trade off to gain higher income is not always seen.

  185. skep-tic says:

    Gator– I have friends who work in publishing who are cool. I am not knocking everyone in that industry. FWIW, there are probably a higher percentage of *ssholes in finance.

  186. randy says:

    as usual, market is reacting 180 degrees from what John predicted.

    is John channeling Bi?

  187. 3b says:

    #181 John: Ahh and to think I used to believe you were one of the old time hardened Wall St guys.

    But at the end of the day you were just crying and begging, for something we have no idea will work.

    A little skepticism is warranted along with your child like giddiness..

  188. MJ says:

    So, now we know.

    This is the sound of $700B+ disappearing into a black hole.

    Nothing changes here except increased debt and a weaker dollar.

    Was it as good for you as it was for me?

  189. BC Bob says:

    [188],

    John’s Bi?

  190. RayC says:

    Vice Presidents almost always try to run for President after their President’s term is up. Dick Cheney is 5 years younger than McCain, why is he not running?

    Nothing left to steal. Or as W might say, Mission Accomplished.

  191. BC Bob says:

    “Was it as good for you as it was for me?”

    MJ,

    It would have been a blast if I could have laid out some shorts on the announcement.

  192. 3b says:

    #186 skeptic: Sales and trading on Wall St did not work overly long hours. When I was in that side of the business, the hours were 7:30 to 5:00 with no lunch.

    Public Finance/Banking on the other hand worked incredible amounts of hours,including weekends.

  193. jcer says:

    Ok John, basically the various types of engineers have made it possible for you to type on this blog, go to work and make money. Without engineers, electrical, computer, civil, structural, etc nothing I mean literally nothing besides small structures could be built. Engineering used to be a prestigious well paying job, as was medicine not so much any more. Engineers take requirements and then make a design, they model the design using mathematics to ensure when built and put into use they function as desired. It requires a vast amount of knowledge, understanding of concepts, critical thinking, and creativity. There are lots of mediocre engineers out there and there are also a few brilliant ones. Engineering is not for those who want to make boat loads of money but I think America should try to foster an environment where people want to become engineers as it is vital to our growth as a country.

  194. skep-tic says:

    3b– traders have it good with the hrs. short but high stress. I’m a lawyer so I have the downside of banker hrs without the banker bonuses. although the job security is better (so far)

  195. skep-tic says:

    oh yeah, lawyers are frequently d*cks too.

  196. jcer says:

    Lawyers have tremendous egos frequently which adds to skeps comment #196.

  197. skep-tic says:

    #194

    “Engineering used to be a prestigious well paying job, as was medicine not so much any more.”

    I think we are going back to the days where these professions are going to provide a good lifestyle.

  198. skep-tic says:

    basically, everyone in NY is a d*ck and the real swell people live in places like Wasila

  199. PeaceNow says:

    One of the most important revenue sources in NYC is tourism. What draws visitors to NYC is not Wall Street, but rather the cultural institutions which are operated and staffed by low-paid liberal arts graduates. If those people cannot afford to live in the city, yet another revenue stream will dry up. Unfortunately, the current (and, I fear, future) mayor has not seen fit to assist those people; instead he’s concentrated on preserving Wall Street firms and luxury developers.

    It’s easy to say that anyone who is unhappy with their standard of living should just get another job in a different industry. Easy to say, but not as easy to do as many people here assert. I tried it once in 1995 and wound up earning less than I had in the ’80s.

    Personally, I don’t want to live in a world where the only value of a human’s life is the ability to make more and more money, and I find it disheartening that people here can’t manage some shred of sympathy for the folks that made other career choices. After all, they’re bailing out Wall Street, too.

  200. BC Bob says:

    “3b– traders have it good with the hrs. short but high stress.”

    skep,

    In case you missed the news alert; Markets trade 24 hours a day. The phone is ringing at 3:00 AM? Maybe your margin clerk in London?

  201. John says:

    The market is doing exactly what I want it to do, I own too much bank bonds and with the credit markets frozen I was in a frozen state. Now I can slowly sell bits and pieces and let others mature. That WAMU bullet I pretty much dodged put the fear of god in me. I still plan on buying a house Dec 2010 to Feb 2011. In the past few weeks I did load up on Callable Munis with a coupon of 5% or greater trading at par or less under the theory they won’t get called as munis can’t get money and when credit markets unfreeze they will start calling them in time for my downpayment plus BO is a tax junkie and he is tonic for tax free bonds.

    I have officially entered capital preservation time as I am two years to trade up time and I for once needed to be bailed out.

    I actually don’t want to see a big rally here as I need GB to sign it, a rate cut and some other assorted breaks for the banks. Once we are done with all that and finish 4Q next year will be good comparision wise for the banks. However, the first industry to fall is first to recover, this credit crunch will still be hitting the safe places.

    I am not alone here, people waiting for a bottom who have been on the sidelines downpayment money keeps rising. By the time the fence sitters jump in they will have a few hundred thousand to put down and not losing your nest egg while still earning good interest or dividends is a tough juggle. Banks are going to want 50% down when they clear inventory so 300K cash will be a requirement not a luxury when we hit bottome.

  202. make money says:

    Clot is this you? Who is this?

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/27005579

  203. skep-tic says:

    Peace– not sure if you’re referring to me, but I do have sympathy for people who choose to pursue things other than making money. Most people in my immediately family work for non-profits or in the arts; the difference is that they accept that they made a tradeoff and do not have a grudge against people who have chosen to go a different route. I agree that the world would be a pretty awful place if we lost all of the artists, etc

  204. 3b says:

    #201 Yep. I enjoyed it for all the years I did it. It was tough for the Brokers brokers, because they had to spend 3 or 4 nights a week entertaining all of us from the various B/D’s.

    The Post House is still my favorite restaurant.

  205. skep-tic says:

    #201

    “In case you missed the news alert; Markets trade 24 hours a day.”

    BC– good point. and yet my trader buddies are home by 6:00 every day. I guess they are not BSDs yet

  206. John says:

    jcer that sounds like a boring job, Actually my name sake is an engineer and holds numerous patents and is enshrined in the aviation museum for all his engineering feats. I was really bored once and hard up for work and I fudged my manufacturing background a bit and did some aviation engineering consulting in seattle for a week or two, my deliverable was just some powerpoints thank god. When one engineer bozo I was interviewing ask me my qualifications rather than say I have none I said hey I am named after my uncle who is a great engineer. The 50 year old asian aviation engineer was trying to do something for the new dreamliner that my uncle orginally developed and was very impressed. Thank god he did not ask any more questions.

  207. John says:

    Does that include Ron Artest?

    skep-tic Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 2:03 pm
    Peace– not sure if you’re referring to me, but I do have sympathy for people who choose to pursue things other than making money. Most people in my immediately family work for non-profits or in the arts; the difference is that they accept that they made a tradeoff and do not have a grudge against people who have chosen to go a different route. I agree that the world would be a pretty awful place if we lost all of the artists, etc

  208. PeaceNow says:

    Skep-tic:

    Yes, in part my comment was directed to you. But also, in a general way, it was directed to the many people on this board who assume—and you make this point yourself in #204—that their family/friends are totally different than the people you aimed your original comment at.

    If you had read the entire Times article, the author makes a point of saying that schadenfreude has become impossible for the liberal arts graduates to feel in this situation, because bailout or no bailout, they’ve been taken down, too.

  209. Clotpoll says:

    kl (78)-

    If you vote at all, you are a passive accomplice in the fleecing of our country.

  210. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (80)-

    Skinner Boxed lab rats.

  211. skep-tic says:

    Peace– I read the article, but I find the sentiment unredeeming. The only reason not to feel joy at others’ misfortune is because you are suffering too? To me this is just one more expression of the same narcissism

  212. JF says:

    Seneca Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
    lisooth [138]

    Re: taxpayer burden due to US – Israel alliance

    To your list of what Israel has done for the US lately I would add:
    * Consistently provides evidence to terrorist groups that a “spoiled” Western society will withstand barrages of rocket and suicide bomber attacks on its civilians and maintain an unfaltering resolution to fight
    * Exposed Syria’s role in supporting terror by facilitating the transport of Iranian weapons to Hizbullah and supplying its own long-range weaponry to this terror group
    * The US and Israel cooperate extensively on defense, intelligence and economic matters. By doing so, they advance their common interests of promoting freedom, fighting extremism, and seeking peace and prosperity.
    * The anti-western, anti-American groups Hamas and Hizbullah are kept in check via Israel’s military strength in the Mediterranean region without the need for American military support. Contrast this with the situation in the Gulf where there is no Israel-equivalent and where are tax money is being spent to support the US troops.
    * The Arrow ballistic missile defense system was the result of a joint program with Israel’s high tech military industry. Development costs were shared equally between a country whose population is 7.3 million and its ally the US, population 305 million.
    * Real-time intelligence on terrorist groups and expertise in counter-terrorism
    * Unmanned aerial vehicle technology
    * Radar decoy technology
    * Billions of dollars in trade between the countries

    …boy, those are all wonderful things that an American-Isreali alliance has produced. Terrorism for one, was never an American problem prior to 1948. The US is an ally of Israel, not the other way around. All four of our candidates stand no chance of being elected if they dare disagree with the blind support of Israel. There is no open debate in this country on the matter. There in lies the reason our political system is broken.

    No one is looking at the root cause of all the things you just mentioned. That’s my point. There is this shut up and don’t talk about it mentality.

  213. John says:

    Hey Peace now, I guess there parents were to blame. I remember back the early 80’s parents used to say, Accountng, Pharmacy, Law, Engineering, Medical school etc. is all I am paying for if you think I am paying for you to study Art History you are nuts.

  214. John says:

    Oct. 3 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. plans to hire five to 10 asset-management firms as Secretary Henry Paulson establishes the government’s new office for handling the financial bailout, a Treasury official said.

    The department will also add about two dozen new employees, a mix of bankers, lawyers, accountants and others, the official said on condition of anonymity. The Treasury’s first attempt to hold an auction to buy troubled assets from financial firms will take at least four weeks to set up, said the official.

    Congress passed the Bush administration’s $700 billion financial markets rescue plan today.

  215. BC Bob says:

    John,

    Not just 1, GS?

  216. 3b says:

    #202 John:Banks are going to want 50% down when they clear inventory so 300K cash will be a requirement not a luxury when we hit bottom.

    With a 50% down payment, nobody will be buying.

  217. Clotpoll says:

    John (136)-

    Fcuk GE. Iran should have no problem handling their price increases on sensitive missile technologies.

  218. Clotpoll says:

    Immelt should be jailed, tried for treason, found guilty and hung until dead.

    Instead, he is viewed as a great businessman.

  219. BC Bob says:

    “With a 50% down payment, nobody will be buying.”

    3b,

    Maybe John’s definition regarding the impact of credit markets loosening?

  220. skep-tic says:

    Clot– what is this sensitive missile technology? OFAC is pretty strict on this stuff– I would be surprised if GE wasn’t in compliance

    http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/

  221. BC Bob says:

    Clot,

    Is that Immelt or I-melt?

  222. 3b says:

    #195 skeptic: Yep the hours were good, but the stress was incredibly high.

    Nothing like sitting with a 100MM NYC TRANS deal that settles tomorrow with no orders, that you priced, but you got paid.

    Or when your desk sold some AAA rated by both Puerto Rico Pre-Re’s,escrowed 100% Treasuries backed by Heinz Tuna,at a premium of 110, only to have Greenpeace complain about dolphins getting caught in the fishing nets, and the issuer calls the entire issue at PAR.

    And when things were bad you did not.

    The “street” has has gone down in my eyes after the pathetic pleading for a bailout that no one undertands, and no one knows if it will work.

    I guess I am for a different era, when crying and pleading on the “street” was unheard of.

  223. John says:

    Even John Holmes wouldn’t want to go home long this weekend.

  224. Clotpoll says:

    John Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    “Crazy market, everyone is jumping in.”

    Uh, John…looks like they sold the news.

  225. John says:

    I saw one single good priced deal in the last year. Third highest bid was 40% down and had cash proof and they offered it to me for 10K less if I could do it at 50% down.

    They turned down the two highest bids as they were 20% nonsense.

    Bank unloading a 1.5 million dollar home for one million and taking a 500K loss ain’t loaning you 800k. Yea you can go elsewhere but good luck. HSBC had an REO near my house and they were doing a 30 year fixed through HSBC where they pay all closing costs and give you the loan if you put down 50%.

  226. John says:

    White House says that President Bush has signed the historic $700 billion bailout bill into law. More soon.

    I love bush

  227. skep-tic says:

    dollar/euro alternative? (from the WSJ)

    *******

    Mackerel Economics in Prison Leads to Appreciation for Oily Fillets
    Packs of Fish Catch On as Currency, Former Inmates Say; Officials Carp By JUSTIN SCHECK

    “Prisoners need a proxy for the dollar because they’re not allowed to possess cash. Money they get from prison jobs (which pay a maximum of 40 cents an hour, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons) or family members goes into commissary accounts that let them buy things such as food and toiletries. After the smokes disappeared, inmates turned to other items on the commissary menu to use as currency.

    Books of stamps were one easy alternative. “It was like half a book for a piece of fruit,” says Tony Serra, a well-known San Francisco criminal-defense attorney who last year finished nine months in Lompoc on tax charges. Elsewhere in the West, prisoners use PowerBars or cans of tuna, says Ed Bales, a consultant who advises people who are headed to prison. But in much of the federal prison system, he says, mackerel has become the currency of choice.”

  228. 3b says:

    #228 John: There are those of us who will be purchasing but will not be looking at hsuses with such lofty prices.

    I would think you should ask yourself why would you?

  229. John says:

    Had the names of the other bidders, no mystery bidding. pants were dropped and string was tied to rock. I let the younger couple have it who only had 300K to put down. It was near my brothers house and I was going to flip so I figured let the nice young couple have it.

    John Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
    I saw one single good priced deal in the last year. Third highest bid was 40% down and had cash proof and they offered it to me for 10K less if I could do it at 50% down.

    They turned down the two highest bids as they were 20% nonsense.

  230. John says:

    Because a four bedroom house on at least a 80 by 100 plot in a good train town is still a lot of cash.

  231. skep-tic says:

    #229

    Clot– Iactually saw that item on fox news but didn’t understand what the issue was. still don’t quite get it

  232. 3b says:

    #230 One more item to burnish his legacy I am sure.

  233. Clotpoll says:

    BC (192)-

    By October 17, I know exactly where the pant-up demand will be:

    “It would have been a blast if I could have laid out some shorts on the announcement.”

    Get shorty!

  234. make money says:

    Bush signed the bill. You gotta love the crooks they move fast.

  235. 3b says:

    #234 John: Because a four bedroom house on at least a 80 by 100 plot in a good train town is still a lot of cash

    Becasuse a 4 bed hosue etc, WAS a lot of cash, but is rapidly falling in value every day.

    Train town? Train to where NYC?, Gee, I am not so sure that will be such a huge selling item going forward. The “street” and NYC in general is going to be a very, very diffferent place once the dust settles on all of this.

    With all due respect you sound like you are getting a little unhinged there John.

    First you are crying and pleading, now you are babbling on about train towns.

  236. Clotpoll says:

    John (216)-

    “…if you think I am paying for you to study Art History you are nuts.”

    The only thing I’m telling my son is to take all the damn Art History he can. That’s where you meet all the hot girls.

  237. Clotpoll says:

    John (230)-

    Do you think he even bothered reading it?

    Will be there be a signing statement attached (doubt it)?

    Did he even mention all the pork it got wrapped in?

    Did he sign it in his secret bunker?

  238. Victorian says:

    Clot –

    Looks like Bob Toll is done selling.

  239. Clotpoll says:

    Vic (242)-

    Great. Now they can file for bankruptcy.

  240. BC Bob says:

    John [230],

    Just a sampling;

    Sec. 502. Provisions related to film and television productions.
    Sec. 503. Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children.
    Sec. 504. Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon Valdez litigation.
    Sec. 505. Certain farming business machinery and equipment treated as 5-year property.
    Sec. 506. Modification of penalty on understatement of taxpayer’s liability by tax return preparer.
    Subtitle B—Paul Wellstone and Pete Domenici Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act of 2008
    Sec. 601. Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.
    Sec. 602. Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund.

  241. Victorian says:

    Wait – wasn’t this bailout supposed to protect the retirement money of all the hockey moms?
    Did they forget to include the clause in the final version?
    Why is the DOW down??

  242. still_looking says:

    Thanks Rich! and for the article too.

    The Dow graph looks like K-2.

    Yep. We really are doomed.

    I’m going back to bed…

    sl

  243. gary says:

    $700,000,000,000

    Pretty big looking number, isn’t it? Bonuses on ‘the street’, housing appreciation to resume, lending to loosen… it sucks to be a little POS like us, doesn’t it? Just shut the f*ck up and pay your taxes.

  244. Clotpoll says:

    We are certainly and squarely f*&#ed.

  245. Clotpoll says:

    SKF…will…not…die.

    No disclaimers needed.

  246. Clotpoll says:

    SRS is a screaming buy.

    All disclaimers. Vic gave you the tip: Toll is done selling.

  247. still_looking says:

    Clot,

    Are they still making shares of srs?

    sl

  248. make money says:

    We are being told loudly and repeatedly that the gargantuan mortgage bail-out package is necessary because illiquid mortgage-backed securities are clogging our financial arteries, threatening the economic equivalent of cardiac arrest. The idea of the plan is to transfer these supposedly valuable, but currently unmarketable, assets to the government so that private institutions can freely lend once more. The monumental flaw in this argument is that the mortgage backed securities are in fact highly liquid, just not at the prices the owners would like to receive.

    Mortgage bonds are just like houses. They won’t sell if the owners stubbornly refuse to drop the price. However, they can find buyers if they acknowledge reality, and lower their expectations accordingly.

    The government tells us that if these assets are held to maturity their full value will eventually be realized, and that it is only because of a lack of current liquidity that their value is not reflected in the market. However, as many private transactions have shown us in recent months, these assets will find buyers at the right price. These are not overly exotic assets but relatively straight forward mortgage obligations. The inability to find buyers is not a function of liquidity but simply of price. The government is seeking to “create liquidity” by overpaying.

    The government’s assumptions about the “held to maturity” value of these mortgages completely understate the likelihood of widespread default. Some of the “illiquid” assets represent tranches of mortgage-backed securities that will be completely wiped out. Even the higher quality tranches will suffer severe losses due to mortgages that will inevitably go bad.

    For example, take a $500,000 adjustable rate mortgage on a condo in Las Vegas that has a current value of only $250,000. To assume that this asset can be safely held to maturity is absurd, when in all likelihood the borrower will default shortly after the rate re-sets, even if the borrower has not yet shown signs of distress. Of course such a mortgage would be completely illiquid if one tried to sell it anywhere near par, but would be extremely liquid if priced to reflect a more realistic value; say 35 cents on the dollar. But if the government pays prices that fairly factors in likely defaults, it will bankrupt the very institutions it is trying to bail out.

  249. Clotpoll says:

    sl (251)-

    SRS is trading freely, although my understanding is they are having a tough time tracking, as the mortgage components of SRS are on the no-short list.

    I don’t care. SKF and SRS are both lined up against big piles of poop, and they can’t ban shorting forever. I’ll be waiting here when the crooks give it up.

  250. Clotpoll says:

    Burn, baby, burn!

  251. max says:

    my oh my… guess they did not like the bailout.

    wait till duncan’s mom and pop get the statements.

  252. Victorian says:

    SRS had a Red Tag sale the day they banned short selling @68. Wish I had loaded up more on that day.

    The CRE shoe is about to drop big time – with unemployment @ 11 %, Christmas has been canceled. Lots of stores are going to cancel their leases in the shopping centers.

    Note – Please do not take any investment advice from me. I am a hockey dad from Wasilla.

  253. still_looking says:

    Clot, [realizing it’s probably a dumb question]

    So, if I want to buy SKF I can (I haven’t tried since selling a huge block– all but 2 shares — of it at its last runup)

    [I can hear CF bristling all the way up here in Bergen…]

    I understand all the disclaimers and have traded securities – profitably — since I was 15, so I don’t need the lecture, thanks.

    sl

  254. PGC says:

    Here is an interesting chart from another blog I follow. It shows the main banks for each country and how much of their assests are a percentage of GDP. For interest, Bradford and Bingley the UK bank just nationalised came in at 4%. It was a cheap one to bail out.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61d7e148-8f15-11dd-946c-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

    Country Bank Country GDP Bank Assets Bank Assets to GDP %
    (€ billions) (€ billions)

    Iceland Kaupthing 8.5 32 623%
    Landsbanki 8.5 53 374%

    Ireland Bank of Ireland 179.8 183 102%
    Allied Irish 179.8 178 99%

    France BNP Paribas 1623.7 1694 104%

    Spain Santander 692.5 913 132%

    UK RBS 1644.7 2079 126%
    HSBC 1644.7 1608 98%
    Barclays 1644.7 1542 94%
    LTSB/HBOS (est) 1644.7 1282 78%

    Belgium Fortis 348.9 886 254%
    Dexia 348.9 605 173%
    KBC 348.9 356 102%

    Netherlands ING 473.1 1370 289%
    Rabobank 473.1 571 121%

    Germany Deutsche Bank 2237.2 1917 86%

    Austria Erste Bank 241.6 206 85%

    Italy Unicredit 1284.9 1022 80%

    Cyprus Bank of Cyprus 12.6 32 253%

    Switzerland UBS 294.7 1426 484%
    Credit Suisse 294.7 854 290%

    Canada BMO 974.8 302.2 31%
    RBC 974.8 516.6 53%
    TD 974.8 409.4 42%
    Scotia 974.8 380.2 39%

    US BofA 10657 1321.1 12%
    JP Morgan 10657 1202.7 11%
    Citi 10657 1684.5 16%

  255. randy says:

    this is kind of awesome… the market is giving the bailout the bird!!!

  256. BC Bob says:

    “But if the government pays prices that fairly factors in likely defaults, it will bankrupt the very institutions it is trying to bail out.”

    make,

    Why would the govt do that? The market has already priced this crap, .05 Merrill. No, the govt recognizes value in this toxic muck. Maybe we’ll pay .70 or .80 on the dollar. Our reward? Goldman, who sells at inflated prices to us, will happily come back and take it off our books. Oh, at Merrill prices. Thank you taxpayer.

  257. Clotpoll says:

    sl (258)-

    SKF is locked up (although I have heard that redeemed shares of the float are allowed to trade).

    SRS is available for purchase.

  258. Clotpoll says:

    Just to clarify, no new shares of SKF are being created by State Street.

  259. HEHEHE says:

    They had Wells Fargo CEO on CNBC, according to him there was no signed agreements between Citi and Wachovia. Considering Wells has Wachtel as their counsel I like their odds of this going through. Of course who knows what is what given the fact there’s no agreement to look at since it’s not public. Same sh*t with the JPM/WAMU deal. Get the government involved and everything’s a secret.

    Why don’t they just do away with Edgar and Bergabe and Paulson will just tell us what stocks are worth and what the bondholders rights are?

  260. Shore Guy says:

    “threatened with martial law ”

    Cheney would do it too, and George Herbert Hoover Bush would go along with it so he could get a few more years to put things right and keep hunting bin Laden.

  261. make money says:

    BC 261

    I said this last month.

    Buy GS and sell America.

  262. ben says:

    “To your list of what Israel has done for the US lately I would add:
    * Consistently provides evidence to terrorist groups that a “spoiled” Western society will withstand barrages of rocket and suicide bomber attacks on its civilians and maintain an unfaltering resolution to fight
    * Exposed Syria’s role in supporting terror by facilitating the transport of Iranian weapons to Hizbullah and supplying its own long-range weaponry to this terror group
    * The US and Israel cooperate extensively on defense, intelligence and economic matters. By doing so, they advance their common interests of promoting freedom, fighting extremism, and seeking peace and prosperity.
    * The anti-western, anti-American groups Hamas and Hizbullah are kept in check via Israel’s military strength in the Mediterranean region without the need for American military support. Contrast this with the situation in the Gulf where there is no Israel-equivalent and where are tax money is being spent to support the US troops.
    * The Arrow ballistic missile defense system was the result of a joint program with Israel’s high tech military industry. Development costs were shared equally between a country whose population is 7.3 million and its ally the US, population 305 million.
    * Real-time intelligence on terrorist groups and expertise in counter-terrorism
    * Unmanned aerial vehicle technology
    * Radar decoy technology
    * Billions of dollars in trade between the countries”

    So basically, they helped us with our god awful foreign policy?

    You should also add that they attacked the USS Liberty. That’s right, they attacked an American ship and killed American soldiers.

  263. Kettle1 says:

    Some one please tell me the “No Review” clause didint stay in the bill!!!!!!!

    if the original clause that stated that paulson’s bailout actions were beyond the review of any branch of the government stayed in the document then we now have a dictator running the country.

    He who controls the money controls the empire. And it appears that paulson now has uncontestable control of the empire for the next 2 years

    From Wikipedia:

    Dictator was a political office of the Roman Republic. The dictator was above the three branches of government in the constitution of the Roman Republic as no other body or officer could check his power.

    A legal innovation of the Roman Republic, the dictator (Latin for “one who dictates (orders)”) — officially known as the Magister Populi (“Master of the People”), the Praetor Maximus (“The supreme Praetor”), and the Magister Peditum (“Master of the Infantry”) — was an extraordinary magistrate (magistratus extraordinarius) whose function was to perform extraordinary tasks exceeding the authority of any of the ordinary magistrates.

    The Roman Senate passed a senatus consultum authorizing the consuls to nominate a dictator, who was the sole exception to the Roman legal principles of collegiality (multiple tenants of the same office) and responsibility (being legally able to be held to answer for actions in office); there could never be more than one dictator at any one time for any reason, and no dictator could ever be held legally responsible for any action during his time in office for any reason. The dictator was the highest magistrate in degree of precedence (Praetor Maximus) and was attended by 24 lictors.

  264. Shore Guy says:

    “The monumental flaw in this argument is that the mortgage backed securities are in fact highly liquid, just not at the prices the owners would like to receive.”

    THIS is why hearings were necessary and the fact that no hearings were held tells you that they did not care about facts.

  265. Kettle1 says:

    How long before the enforce a Bank holiday?

    This bailout will do nothing. read the following commentary below. Buckle your seatbelt!

    From another blog

    <i. If you’d ask around, nearly everyone would say that it’s impossible for a country to go bankrupt. Yet, hard as it may be to imagine, we soon could see a few exceptions to this immovable truth.

    After Ireland, under a threat of bank runs, guaranteed all deposits in its banks, which have liabilities that are 300% of the country’s GDP, more events in Europe follow at the speed of light. Greece also gave a 100% guarantee. These are empty promises; if all banks would fail, governments would be incapable of living up to them. These are made to prevent bank failures. But that leaves the cause for those failures unattended. And there lies the rub. The Netherlands, only days after it bought 49% of Fortis with the Belgians for $16 billion, just fully nationalized the bank’s Dutch branches. Price tag: $24 billion.

    Iceland is the prime princess of them all. Its banks have liabilities at 800% of GDP. The country bought one of the banks, and the rest are falling. Iceland has been turned into a casino in the past decade, and now the house is broke. It’s just a waiting game by now.

    Still, at least Iceland has a central bank. The countries in the European Monetary Union, the ones that use the Euro, do not. And that may have dire consequences. Greece’s example will probably soon be followed by Portugal. That can be managed. But if right afterwards, larger nations like Italy and Spain join the hand-out choir, the ECB will no longer be able to help.

    It will be up to the governments, directly, to buy banks left and right, for there is no doubt they will be falling like an avalanche of boulders. To have any chance of success, that will require control over currency and interest rates. Which they no longer have. So now the question is: Will the EU survive till Christmas? Will its member nations start defauling on their debt before then? Can they make a smooth transition back to true nationhood in time?

    Along the same line: the US government won’t go broke soon (though we can argue that in theory it already is), but the separate states can. They have no central bank either. California needs $7 billion within days, just to pay state employees’ salaries. Other states have cancelled road building projects, and who knows what else. And we haven’t even started the crisis. Neither will the $700 billion alleviate their problems.

    Governments at state, county and town levels face a multifold whammy. They can’t get access to credit, since the bond market died. They have lost billions thorugh faulty investments. Their tax revenues are starting to plummet. And their budgets are all based on insanely positive economic expectations. And this is where we all will first see the crisis turn from a somewhat detached far-away one into a force that hits us smack upside our heads.

    We will very soon see widespread cancellations of services, multi-million lay-offs, defaults of pension funds, crumbling roads and even serious challenges to essential provisions such as water treatment. There is no way the federal government can bail out every lower level of government that needs money. It is simply not going to happen. The only remaining option is sharp increases in taxes, but that is a dead end: citizens are already broke, their home values are sinking, they are losing their jobs, and the last thing they’ll accept is rising taxes across the board.

    Meanwhile, in dreamland, the Dow is rising, and there are actually people out there who think the Paulson bail-out will restore confidence in the markets. But next week, the next bail-out will be needed. We are in a state of permanent emergency, and there is nothing in sight that can stop the bleeding. We do what we always do, because we are so darn good at it. We make everything worse. Hey, it’s a talent.

  266. John says:

    gary Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
    $700,000,000,000

    I like the fact it starts with 7 and we were down 777 when it did not pass the first time.

  267. John says:

    If we lay off do nothing civil servants how will we know the effects, will less of nothing not get done?

  268. Victorian says:

    Shore –
    You were looking for the DOW figures during the Chimp-in-Chief’s tenure?

    January 20, 2001: 10,659
    October 03, 2008: 10,325
    % Change = -3.1

  269. 3b says:

    There apparently is talk again about reducing loan amounts for struggling homeowners, once Obama takes office.

  270. max says:

    civil servants lay off? they will go down with the ship..

    always remember as the titanic went down
    the band continued to play

  271. BC Bob says:

    vic [273],

    What’s real losses?

  272. Rich In NNJ says:

    How they voted:

    NEW JERSEY

    Y: Yes
    N: No

    Democrats — Andrews, Y; Holt, Y; Pallone, Y; Pascrell, Y; Payne, N; Rothman, N; Sires, Y.

    Republicans — Ferguson, Y; Frelinghuysen, Y; Garrett, N; LoBiondo, N; Saxton, Y; Smith, N.

  273. Victorian says:

    BC Bob (275) –

    True. Gold went up 300%?

  274. lisoosh says:

    # JF Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    “…boy, those are all wonderful things that an American-Isreali alliance has produced. Terrorism for one, was never an American problem prior to 1948. ……

    There is no open debate in this country on the matter. There in lies the reason our political system is broken.

    No one is looking at the root cause of all the things you just mentioned. That’s my point. There is this shut up and don’t talk about it mentality.”

    No open debate? Really? I just offered you some and like Palin you refused to respond directly. Instead you made up an answer to the question in your head.

    No terrorism pre-1948? Really? So Pearl Harbour in your opinion wasn’t in many ways a terroristic attack? Cross border attacks from Mexico early in the States history? Many acts of violence against civilians and homes during the Civil War? Kamikaze pilots were suicide bombers, or didn’t you know that?
    Terrorism – or controlling a population with fear has been a tactic used since time immemorial.

    Israel doing the US’s dirty work in the region and putting itself on the front lines isn’t in Americans interest? Really?
    How about Israel dumps the US and America has to send out tens of thousands of troops to deal with assorted issues it has across the region? Are you going to volunteer for it.

    You want to debate? I am a left wing Israeli. I would be more than happy for Israel to NOT be an issue at all in this election. I would prefer it even more for it not to be the pet project of a bunch of Right Wing American nuts using it for their own ends. I don’t really want my familiy members dying for someone elses war.

    When you blame Israel, a foreign sovereign nation 6,000 miles away for domestic issues you are doing nothing more than looking for a scapegoat due to your own paranioa, fear and lack of education. See the previous post where it was discussed who would be the scapegoated ethnicity during bad economic time. BC Bob suggested the Arabs or Mexicans. I said it would be the Jews because it always is – anti-Semitism is a lazy disease. You talk Israel and AIPAC but you are just an anti-Semite who doesn’t have the guts to be honest about it.

  275. BC Bob says:

    “BC Bob suggested the Arabs or Mexicans.”

    Lisoosh,

    Not I. Didn’t even read the posts pertaining to this subject.

  276. lisoosh says:

    # ben Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    “You should also add that they attacked the USS Liberty. That’s right, they attacked an American ship and killed American soldiers.”

    Over the years so did the British, Japanese, Mexicans, Italians and Germans to name a few. And WAY more soldiers.

    Are they our allies now?

  277. John says:

    Futures on the Chicago Board of Trade show an 84 percent probability the Fed will lower its 2 percent target rate for overnight lending between banks by a half-percentage point at its Oct. 29 meeting,

  278. BC Bob says:

    vic,

    1/01/01- $275

  279. BC Bob says:

    John [283],

    Another rally to sell. Next.

  280. Zack says:

    I am suprised no rally after $700B bailout package. Instead down 150. wtf
    I won’t be surprised if Hank asks for another 700B in the coming weeks.

  281. Mitchell says:

    What is the ticket symbol for Ramen?

  282. 3b says:

    #280 lisoosh: To which I would add, the only people (Jewish), who took a barren waste land,and turned it into a viable functioning country.

    Not to mention that it gurantees access to the holy sites for all 3 of the religions that have ties to Jerusalem. That also pays to maintain these sites, even the non-Jewish ones.

    The Palestinians had a chance to show the world that they were capable of developing some kind of functioning government and quality of life for their people, once Israel withdrew from Gaza.

    And Hamas’s response was lets continue to lob rockets into Israel.

    They have no desire to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians.

  283. lisoosh says:

    Sorry BC. It was kettle, from yesterdays late night piece on 1873.My apologies.

    I shouldn’t even touch this cr@p with a barge pole but I am cranky and in no mood to be painted as some kind of fifth column secret cabal member due to the fact that I don’t believe in the New Testament.

  284. 3b says:

    #284 John: And??

  285. zieba1 says:

    Wow. A selloff of over 100 points on the dow after the bailout?

    I reiterate my strong buy rating on guns and upgrade canned food to speculative buy.

  286. BC Bob says:

    Step back a year;

    “I have no interest in bailing out lenders or property speculators.” Paulson said in prepared remarks for a speech given Tuesday at Georgetown University.

    “Referring to HopeNow, he said, “This is a 100 percent market-based solution. I believe in markets. The government is doing nothing here but facilitating people coming together.”

    “Paulson also downplayed the possibility that the housing crisis could plunge the nation into recession. “I’ve seen turbulence in the market a number of times and I can’t think of any situation where the backdrop of the global economy was as healthy as it is today,” he said.

    http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/real_estate/Paulson_leaning_on_lenders/index.htm

  287. lisoosh says:

    3b – I’m actually pretty left wing in Israeli circles. I’d be more than happy for the Pals to have their own state (would prefer it to be friendly) and don’t view Israel as some perfect paragon. It has its good side and its flaws, like any other country.

    I just get tired with the disguised anti-Semitism of jf and the silly “Israel is a pariah in an oasis of peace” BS of Ben. I’d be willing to bet I know a ton more about the history of EVERY nation and people in the region than either one – and a h*ll of lot more personal experience.

  288. lisoosh says:

    And now I am done with this topic.

    Sorry Grim. Lot of tension out there these days.

  289. BC Bob says:

    Wish I had thought of this one;

    “… having read the latest Paulson bill, we fear we are back to training Pavlov’s banker dogs to piss on the carpet of capitalism. We shall live with the stink and stain for a long time”.

    Independent Strategy, investment research house.

  290. 3b says:

    #294 lisoosh: Agreed.

  291. BC Bob says:

    They are flying on a Friday afternoon;

    “A new acronym: BABOONS… baby boomers with no savings”

  292. jcer says:

    Lisoosh and 3b, my sentiments exactly. The Palestinians claim unfair treatment from the US, etc. They should realize if they were not essentially a terrorist government that behaved in a civil manner perhaps some kind of agreement can be made. Until that point there is no talking to them and no chance to improve the people’s lives. Your point with #280 though is a little skewed as while the country is a success and natural resources do not abound the resources to start the country were brought in from other countries by people principally wealthy zionists from the US and Britain. So they really didn’t start from zero, if they started from zero chances are they would have been killed by their neighbors early on. Israel has not hurt the US in any material way from my perspective. The arabs have hated america for a long time and Israel is just the tip of the iceberg. Both WTC attacks were in response to military bases in the Middle East specifically Saudi Arabia. Also we have had problems with Iraq and Iran due to our playing in the region since the 50’s and the anger over what we did to the people illicit an extremist muslim response. So our issues in the Middle East are way more complicated than our relationship with Israel.

  293. John says:

    All this j talk is making me hungry for bagels and lox

  294. skep-tic says:

    Well, I went home with the waitress
    The way I always do
    How was I to know
    She was with the Russians, too

    I was gambling in Havana
    I took a little risk
    Send lawyers, guns and money
    Dad, get me out of this
    I’m the innocent bystander
    Somehow I got stuck
    Between the rock and the hard place
    And I’m down on my luck
    And I’m down on my luck
    And I’m down on my luck

    Now I’m hiding in Honduras
    I’m a desperate man
    Send lawyers, guns and money
    The sh*t has hit the fan

  295. BC Bob says:

    Everything that dies, someday comes back;

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The Securities and Exchange Commission ban on short selling of financial stocks will be lifted just before midnight on Wednesday. That means investors can put new bearish bets on shares of financial-services companies starting Thursday. The SEC said earlier this week that the ban would expire three trading days after the $700 billion government bailout became law. President George Bush signed the legislation into law on Friday, after the House of Representatives voted for the plan earlier in the day.

  296. woody says:

    Why are realtors getting off blame free?? Palin was quick to blast the mortgage lenders but what about predatory realtors that KNEW their buyers could not and should not be able to afford these houses they were selling them. Ethics was completely thrown out the window for a quick buck…sorry to say it but I believe it true

  297. Nom Deplume says:

    [264] HEHEHE

    Yikes, Rodgin Cohen for Wachovia and Richard Kim for Wells. That is the sound of about 20K an hour with associate time included. I would bet on them versus their counterparts at Skadden and DPW.

  298. Nom Deplume says:

    [300] skep,

    sounds like my house.

  299. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [291] Comrade zieba1

    Way ahead of you.

    Comrade Kettle, d’ya think the compound is looking a lot more attractive these days???

  300. Seneca says:

    #298 jcer

    “…while the country is a success and natural resources do not abound the resources to start the country were brought in from other countries by people principally wealthy zionists from the US and Britain.”

    Hmmmm…. if only the the Palestinians had some wealthy fellow practioners of the Islamic faith who could supply them with the startup capital to get them going down the right pat.

  301. Seneca says:

    * practitioners

  302. Happy Camper says:

    this video is something else. It is about the company in charge of trashing everything left behind in a foreclosure. I’m glad that they didn’t actually interviewed the people. it would had made it too hard to watch.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/memories.html

    HC

  303. Seneca says:

    oy vey!

    * practitioners of the Islamic faith who could supply them with the startup capital to get them going down the right *path.

  304. zieba1 says:

    I use the 1 suffix because my original nick zieba always ends up in moderation. At any rate, I know a few architects who owe some favors, who in turn know everyone down the line to the guy mixing the cement… we can make this happen on the cheap.

    Does anyone have any land to donate?

  305. House Hunter says:

    press release from congresswoman Diane Watson today:
    I also share my colleagues’ concerns about the massive failures of the markets as well as government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. My colleagues and I have vowed to work hard to get to the bottom of this mess. I am therefore pleased that Speaker Pelosi has tasked Henry Waxman, Chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, to convene a series of hearings, beginning next Monday.

    now watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

  306. chicagofinance says:

    still_looking Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
    Clot, [realizing it’s probably a dumb question]
    So, if I want to buy SKF I can (I haven’t tried since selling a huge block– all but 2 shares — of it at its last runup)
    [I can hear CF bristling all the way up here in Bergen…]
    I understand all the disclaimers and have traded securities – profitably — since I was 15, so I don’t need the lecture, thanks.sl

    STILL: There is an article in Bloomberg Wealth Manager, the Ocotber 2008 issue titled “Volatility Surprises” by James Picerno that warns about the viability in returns for leveraged ETFs. The result of the dramatic shift in implied volatility would cause returns to deviate significantly from advertised. A simplistic description would just call it “tracking error”. However, in reality, the sponsor of the fund would likely respond that the mechanisms were functioning as they were designed. At the end of the day, you should be informed consumers and know what you are buying. As an example, they showed instances of regative returns for a 2x fund that was supposed to be positively correlated with an index.

    Caveat Emptor

  307. chicagofinance says:

    viability = variability

  308. chicagofinance says:

    regative = negative

  309. zieba1 says:

    I can see Jon boy now….

    “California may need a $7 billion emergency loan from the Federal government for day-to-day operations and to pay teachers’ salaries, nursing homes, law enforcement and every other State-funded service this month, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger warned in a letter sent Thursday to the U.S. Treasury secretary.”

  310. make money says:

    308 HC

    WOW. 74 employees firm with a trash out business model.

    Any one want to start something like this here.

    I’m down.

  311. Henry Paulson says:

    zieba1, give me a couple of months. I’ll have acres and acres for you.

  312. zieba1 says:

    /scratches head/

    aha, I see we need to scale up the plan. I’ll pass it along to the squares.

    I’ll be taking requests, within reason, for customized living quarters until October 26th at which point the plan will move into its second and penultimate stage.

  313. woody says:

    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

    I’ve been spending more and more time perusing this link…..

  314. bairen says:

    #308 HC

    Let me guess, the pols will say to solve this we need less regulations.

    That video was incredible.

  315. victorian says:

    Hey! Some good news from NJ!!

    “Regulators in New Jersey on Friday awarded rights to build a huge offshore wind farm in the southern part of the state to Garden State Offshore Energy, a joint venture that includes P.S.E.G. Renewable Generation, a subsidiary of P.S.E.G. Global, a sister company of the state’s largest utility.”

    http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/new-jersey-approves-offshore-wind-farm/index.html?hp

  316. ADA says:

    Is this all you have to do to get your mortgage forgiven?

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/eviction.suicide.attempt/index.html

  317. John says:

    I love the down market, let them cut rates and give a whole bunch of other banking perks to the big three of banking, well now big four and lets rock on. 1% fed funds before I get in office, btw my last name is mcain.

  318. John says:

    REPUBLICANS who switched:

    Rodney Alexander (La.)
    Gresham Barrett (SC)
    Judy Biggert (Ill.)
    Charles Boustany (La.)
    Vern Buchanan (Fla.)
    Howard Coble (N.C.)
    Mike Conaway (Texas.)
    Charles Dent (Pa.)
    Mary Fallin (Okla.)
    Rodney Frelinghuysen (N.J.)
    Jim Gerlach (Pa.)
    Peter Hoekstra (Mich.)
    Joseph Knollenberg (Mich.)
    Randy Kuhl (N.Y.)
    Sue Myrick (N.C.)
    Jim Ramstad (Minn.)
    Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (Fla.)
    Jean s****** (Ohio)
    John Shadegg (Ariz.)
    Bill Shuster (Pa.)
    John Sullivan (Okla.)
    Lee Terry (Neb.)
    William “Mac” Thornberry (Texas)
    Patrick Tiberi (Ohio)
    Zach Wamp (Tenn.)

    DEMOCRATS who switched:

    Neil Abercrombie (Hawaii)
    Joe Baca (Calif.)
    Shelley Berkely (Nev.)
    Bruce Braley (Iowa)
    Andre Carson (Ind.)
    Emanuel Cleaver (Mo.)
    Henry Cueller (Texas)
    Elijah Cummings (Md.)
    Donna Edwards (Md.)
    Gabrielle Giffords (Ariz.)
    Al Green (Texas)
    Mazie Hirono (Hawaii)
    Jesse Jackson Jr. (Ill.)
    Sheila Jackson Lee (Texas)
    Carolyn Kilpatrick (Mich.)
    Barbara Lee (Calif.)
    John Lewis (Georgia)
    Harry Mitchell (Ariz.)
    Solomon Ortiz (Texas)
    Bill Pascrell (N.J.)
    Ed Pastor (Ariz.)
    Bobby Rush (Ill.)
    Adam Schiff (Calif.)
    David Scott (Georgia)
    Hilda Solis (Calif.)
    Betty Sutton (Ohio)
    Mike Thompson (Calif.)
    John Tierney (Mass.)
    Diane Watson (Calif.)
    Peter Welch (Vt.)
    Lynne Woolsey (Calif.)

  319. MJ says:

    @ADA

    How does someone get a 30 year mortgage at 86 years of age?

  320. sas says:

    “Goldman Sachs Bribed Senate To Pass Bailout Bill”
    http://tinyurl.com/4drvnn

  321. sas says:

    How much bribe money does it take to transfer $700 Billion taxpayer dollars to Wall Street’s elite?

    GOLDMAN SACHS CONTRIBUTIONS:
    Obama, Barack (D-IL) $691,930
    Clinton, Hillary (D-NY) $468,200
    Romney, Mitt (R) $229,675
    McCain, John (R-AZ) $208,395
    Himes, Jim (D-CT) $114,748
    Giuliani, Rudolph W (R) $111,750
    Dodd, Christopher J (D-CT) $105,400
    Edwards, John (D) $66,450
    Specter, Arlen (R-PA) $47,600
    Emanuel, Rahm (D-IL) $32,950
    Reed, Jack (D-RI) $30,100

    How much money did your Represenative get from Big Bankers to look the other way and pass a bill that the American people clearly do not want?

    HELP SPREAD THE WORD…
    http://www.WashingtonYoureFired.com

  322. sas says:

    “The unemployment trend by state”
    http://tinyurl.com/4mqx6f

  323. sas says:

    “Fear Mongering exposed by Mr. Sherman on CSPAN”
    http://tinyurl.com/4tbg6n

  324. Stu says:

    JF (60):

    First of all, I’m betting you have never been here before. Number two, do you work for WRMEA?

    Get out of here you anti-semetic pig!

  325. Nancy says:

    RE #308..WOW what a moving video. Seeing what people leave behind was mind boggling.. But like the guy said…they don’t have $$ for a moving van and they just take what they can fit in their car. Yikes. Poor kids. Mine go to pieces if I forget a stuffed animal

  326. sas says:

    “The Bailout is for China?”
    http://tinyurl.com/4hf993

  327. Laurie says:

    re #308..Lisa Ling? Long time no see..

  328. Clotpoll says:

    BC (301)-

    Just circled Wednesday in red Sharpie on the little calendar in my bunker.

    Gonna pick me up some shiny new toys (sorry, Booyah)…

  329. Raspablo says:

    This bailout thing is going too far…forgiving mortgages. Come on!
    http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/10/ohio-woman-90-s.html

  330. gary says:

    An article in the NY Times from September 30th, 1999. I believe this was under the (ahem) Clinton Administration:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

  331. Raspablo says:

    ahhh. I see ADA beat me to the punch.

  332. gary says:

    Ok, on a side note… who wants to meet for a beer or two tonight? Anyone? I’ll meet half way, what say you?

  333. Clotpoll says:

    Chi (312)-

    The tracking issues are well-known and well-documented now. State Street has actually done a tremendous job of making SKF perform, under the most onerous of conditions. I am extremely satisfied with their disclosures and the way they have handled a near-impossible task. Once the markets return to something resembling normal, I look forward to pursuing opportunities to take more of my business to them.

    BTW, these issues were all caused by the reckless, criminal racketeering of the cabal of thieves and liars known as the SEC.
    These thugs- and everyone else on Wall St- should emptor up to the fact that in three business days, they’re gonna get smacked with a shitstorm of Biblical proportions.

    Wait ’til Wednesday.

  334. Cindy says:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/26983791

    California runs out of money on October 29th and I get paid on the 31st…Maannn.

  335. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (340)-

    When you’re ready for some anarchy, drop me an e-mail.

  336. Clotpoll says:

    I can show you how to get sick wit it, Rodney King-style.

  337. Victorian says:

    “Wait ’til Wednesday.”

    – Black Wednesday? I sure hope not coz they can blame it on the short sellers.
    Wonder how nobody commented on short selling this Monday. Idiots!

    BTW, picked up some Oct 140 calls on SKF – they sure are on sale.
    Good Luck Clot! I want some of my bailout money back!

  338. Stu says:

    “How does someone get a 30 year mortgage at 86 years of age?”

    John McCane was approved for another mortgage?

    Shouldn’t one know how many homes he has before he tries to buy another?

  339. Frank says:

    Can someone let me know when the recession finally arrive in NJ?
    Because so far I don’t see it, the traffic is horrific, lines at the supermarket are long,
    my mailbox is full of job offers, rents keep going up and it takes me an hour to get my lunch. Where’s the recession?? Someone?? anyone?

  340. Stu says:

    Gary: “Ok, on a side note… who wants to meet for a beer or two tonight? Anyone? I’ll meet half way, what say you?”

    That would probably be a state slightly north of Texas. Got plane tickets Gary?

  341. Clotpoll says:

    The US has Pelosi, Frank, Klink, et al.

    My beloved Magpies? Well, we’re sort of the BPL version of subprime. Here’s our new manager:

    “Newcastle United’s interim manager Joe Kinnear has launched an astonishing expletive-laden attack on his critics over the press coverage of his arrival on Tyneside.

    Kinnear, the surprise choice to fill the void left by Kevin Keegan’s departure, swore more than 50 times during his first official press conference as manager of the Magpies and bombarded a number of journalists with a verbal tirade.

    • To read an edited transcript of Kinnear’s x-rated rant click here. WARNING: Contains expletives.

    The 61-year-old, who was last involved in football management at Nottingham Forest four years ago, claimed the media had already attempted to undermine his influence at Newcastle and that his first press conference would also be the last for many of the journalists there.

    The former Wimbledon and Luton Town boss came out fighting with an onslaught against those who he believed have ridiculed him, insisting they would not be welcome at further meetings and that in future he would only talk to two local papers that he would hand pick.

    Although his press conference was littered with four-letter words Kinnear insisted that the pressure of the job had not got to him and that he was simply defending himself.

    Edited, Kinnear said: “I will stand up and fight for myself in any corner. You’re not going to frighten me in any manner.

    “Whatever you do, or whatever headlines you run, you’re not going to embarrass me.

    “I’m not going to stand for it. I’ve come up here for a simple chance to prove myself. Get off my back and let me get on with my job. That’s all I ask.”

  342. Stu says:

    Gary: NYTimes article was posted a few days ago. I pointed out the paragraph in the article that stated…

    “In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980’s.”

  343. gary says:

    Stu,

    I’ll meet you in an hour! ;)

  344. Stu says:

    Gary ha ha!

  345. Clotpoll says:

    Morgan, from a little earlier tonight. BTW, there are still free conference call spots open for Sunday PM:

    “Fraud or Ignorance – The talking heads are really pumping this market. The guys on Fast Money and other programs that use active traders as their guest and hosts, are scrambling to put a good shine on how undervalued this market is, and what a steal it is now. That’s because they are stuck with stocks on the downside, and they need to either sell them to suckers or pump the market up artificially. If you followed their advice over the last few months, you have lost a pile of money. A big, huge pile.

    Global Markets Booming – The yappie-yakkers don’t stop with touting the US market. The Global Bugs are still talking about how great things are globally . . . that’s like listening to Osama bin Laden tell you he loves you and wants to give you a hug and a wet kiss, when he really wants to squeeze the life out of you and bite out your tongue. These guys on TV are truly demonstrating just how desperate they are, and you can hear it in their voices. It’s funny how they refer to this as panic, desperation and market manipulation. Whhhhhhatttt? Who do they think they are kidding? They just got what they wanted, and the markets still went down. If they can’t figure it out by now, they need a map, a guide, and someone to hold their hand. The yappie-yakkers got scammed by the Big Boys on Wall Street.

    What’s Next? – I could write about what has transpired this week, but I would be writing for three days. As my clients know, I have been working 20 hours a day for two weeks now. They’ve heard it in my voice. It’s not the desperation you hear in the voices of guys like Buffet, Wilbur Ross, Bill Gross, the Fast Money bongo-boys, Ka-Ka Cramer or any of the other con artists. So instead of writing this month’s usual report, I have been holding additional conference calls, and I will hold another big one on Sunday night at 9:30PM Eastern. It will be open to the public but limited to the first 200 to register. There is no charge to the first 100 to register. Beyond the first 100, there will be a $50 fee. On Monday, I will hold two early morning calls before the market opens. One call for General Clients and one call for Trading Clients. Of course, Trading Clients are invited to the General Client call as well.

    What Do You Do Now? – If you’re a client, you are having a very good week. In fact, if you’re a client, and you’re not smiling, you didn’t listen to me. My clients are up over 50% since June 27th, when we launched the public portion of my services. My Trading Clients are up triple digits over the last 30 days alone.

    If you are not a client, you should have followed my advice that was public in my blogs. I’ve told everyone to sell stocks since August of 2007. I’ve been short stocks since then and long PUTs. We have made a lot of money, while the folks that left their money in mutual funds are down 25% or more. Think about that. If you had $500,000 in an IRA invested in mutual funds in August of 2006, you now have less than $375,000. You lost $125,000. Gone. Where? In the pockets of the Big Boys on Wall Street . . . and my clients. If you would have sat in cash and then followed our model portfolio, you have $750,000 right now. Let’s see . . . $375,000 or $750,000? Dirt Pies or Ice Cream? Ka-Ka Cramer or Captain Mike?

    So What Do You Do Now? At the very least, you sell all stocks on Monday. If you want guaranteed return OF capital, put it in Treasuries. After all, that’s part of Paulson’s plan. If you want to invest and earn a better return, you need to invest wisely. You can join our client roster and learn more about investing and how to deal with the financial crisis.

    We’re At The Bottom – Big Rally Coming – You also believe in the Tooth Fairy, right? We are still a long way from the bottom. The yappie yakkers on TV want you to believe that Paulson’s plan of pumping your money into the pockets of Wall Street is going to help things. Nonsense. The yappie-yakkers also want you to believe the coming rate cuts will help things. NOT AT CHANCE. Read that again and again. If you buy into that, you will be sucker-scammed. You will be buying into a short rally, just like the folks did when the bail-out Bill passed on Friday. Rates ARE going down, but just like in Japan . . . even with free money, we are in deep trouble. We are in way over our heads. We have banks that are busted. We have debt that we absolutely refuse to admit. Hey, wake up Washington. We’re broke. We can’t borrow from anyone, anywhere.

    So What? – So we are in a heap of trouble and if you have not planned properly, you know it. Just take a look at your portfolio. If you want to start preparing for what is still coming, join the conference call on Sunday night.

    Surprises? – Absolutely. But not really surprises anymore. I now expect King Henry to change the rules, as he did this week by pressuring the IRS to change rules so his buddy Bob Steel could recoup his losses at Wachovia. Surprises? How about the fact that King Henry has already spent one trillion dollars. That will probably come as a surprise to many of Paulson’s zombies when the media figures it out. Surprises? This weekend you can expect a plethora of surprises from King Henry. And we might see a market rally on Monday. But that market rally serves two purposes. First, it gives King Henry’s men on Wall Street more opportunity to rip off the commoners and the pension funds. Second, it gives my clients another chance to put more capital to work in shorts and PUTs. The week before last I told my clients to go ALL IN. For those that did, they were handsomely rewarded. For those that did not, if we get a rally on Monday . . . push it all in.

    Regards,
    Mike

    P.S. I heard Cramer pulled a flip-flop on Bob Steel and Wachovia. Now he thinks Bob Steel is some kind of god. Cramer really needs to be locked up along with Paulson. What Cramer doesn’t realize about Wachovia is this . . . it is toxic. It is dead. The only reason the Wells Fargo deal emerged, was Warren Buffet and his relationship with Paulson. Think about it. Buffet gets a private call from Paulson on a Sunday afternoon. Yes, he actually shared that information with the world in an interview. Buffet bails out Goldman Sachs with a special buy-in to stop the slide. Buffet gives GE mouth-to-mouth. Wells Fargo end-runs Citi, even though the FDIC favors the Citi deal, but Paulson wants the Wells Fargo deal. And you thought the Fed and the FDIC were on the same team. Silly you. There is only one team now. King Henry’s Raiders. But enough of that for now. I’ll talk about it on the Sunday evening Conference Call if you want to hear all the dirty details.”

  346. still_looking says:

    ChiFi, 312

    Thanks… I appreciate your concern and I can promise you that I am not nearly as cavalier as others.

    This will mark the first year I have ever produced short term capital gains.

    I’ve been fortunate to have had most of my mistakes early on (at smaller amounts) thankfully.

    I do need to find out about tax implications – all I know is Short term CG is taxed at 50%… what about state?

    And.. is it worthwhile selling off 1 of the 2 dogs in my portfolio to balance some of those gains?

    Just wondering…

    sl

  347. Stu says:

    I just read the latest Roubini. Makes me want to cancel my cruise and move all my assets in to gold. His solution does appear to be the best option I’ve read so far.

    http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monitor/253853/financial_and_corporate_system_is_in_cardiac_arrest_the_risk_of_the_mother_of_all_bank_runs

    I suppose what scares me is that we all might not be getting our next paychecks, yet so few of us are even paying attention. I’ll tell you, the muted market reaction to the passing of TARP has really surprised me. I certainly like the fact that my SRS closed near 100, but the implications scare the bejeezus out of me.

    So far, Los Angeles has rocked. I can’t wait to do dinner with my old friends from Jersey later tonight.

    Have a great weekend ya’all.

  348. 3b says:

    #346 What kind of job offers come in your mail box. You know you used to be amusing, now you are just a complete moron.

    Oh and I was in my Supermarket tonight and it was empty.

  349. 3b says:

    #355 stu: I’ll tell you, the muted market reaction to the passing of TARP has really surprised me.

    Muted? More likely negative.

  350. still_looking says:

    And just in case you are curious… [all the usual disclaimers…]

    I had been tracking a bunch of energy stocks. One of them was CEG. Constellation Energy Gp.

    I had target purchase prices for under 45. I had been tracking it for about 8 mos or so. One day I look and it’s under 40… I’m ecstatic… I’m looking for a 5-10 yr outlook on it… So, I buy a bit at 39… it drops to 25 I buy more…. then 21 — yup… more… then go to take a shower… in the hour that I took a shower, got dressed, farted around and came back to my computer it had dropped to 13 and immediately popped up to 32.

    I never set trade triggers before leaving the computer… So… I’m crying. Missed the bargain… in an hour!!

    Next day I hear Warren Buffett’s company bought 4.7 billion of CEG at 26.50/shr.

    Such is life.

    I’d been praying for the day I would make a stock pick like Buffett…even if it was simply and purely coincidental.

    sl

  351. sas says:

    “The burden of outsourcing
    U.S. non-oil trade deficit costs more than 5 million jobs”
    http://www.epi.org/briefingpapers/222/bp222.pdf

  352. sas says:

    “Non-oil trade deficit costs jobs in every state”
    http://tinyurl.com/498t6y

  353. bairen says:

    Fannie forgives loan for woman who shot herself as she was about to get foreclosed and evicted.

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/eviction.suicide.attempt/index.html

  354. Stu says:

    Frank,

    When the hole damn thing collapses like black matter, will you finally shut your pie hole?

  355. KareninCA says:

    I wonder why no-one here posts stuff from Mr. Mortgage. He is awesome. Maybe because he is largely West Coast, but still . . .
    Here is the start of what he posted today (you need to go to his site for the actual charts):

    Wells Fargo Absolutely Did Subprime, Stated, Interest Only, No Ratio Etc
    Posted on October 3rd, 2008 in Daily Mortgage/Housing News – The Real Story, Mr Mortgage’s Personal Opinions/Research
    **NOTE – Mortgage/Real Estate professionals…feel free to share your experiences in the comments section below. Due to a consistent denial by Wells management, there is a belief that Wells was the safest out there through the bubble years and took very little risk. Tell us about your Wells deals…did they really do things so much safer than everyone else? From my experiences, they were one of the busiest and ‘best’ lenders out there during the bubble years, that’s for sure. But in the mortgage business ‘best’ means easiest and most risky. That like saying ’she is a great appraiser’ – wink-wink.

    The CEO of Wells was just on CNBC in a lengthy interview with Maria Bartaromo and he said “we never did stated income, low document, no document, interest only or subprime loans.” That is not accurate. I have covered Wells to death but here are a couple of documents I think the CEO might like to see. I don’t want to sound like I am coming down on Wells, but it is this type of deception that has turned a crisis of confidence into a full-blown global financial system meltdown.

    The first page below is their portfolio intermediate-term ARM products that were their top sellers from 2003-2007. Wells Fargo led the market in these. I believe they still have $75 billion in “Prime” first mortgages, including “Jumbo Prime” on their balance sheet of which much is likely this product type. With values down 40% to 70% across CA where Wells has the greatest exposure, these loan types are likely to perform much closer to Alt-A and Subprime vs. Prime, as they currently have them categorized.

    Remember folks, throughout the bubble years Wells considered an ‘A’ paper or “Prime” loan to be a full-doc, 620 score, 95% combined loan to value, Jumbo 5/1 interest only with 50% debt to income ratios. This person could not get financing anywhere today or even six months ago. Much of this is on their best selling 5/1 interest only with initial 5-year rates at 4% to 5.5%.

    Below is their stated income product guidelines for the same “Prime” program line; it just required slightly higher credit score and slightly lower loan to value ratios. These hybrid ARMs will adjust over the next 5-years to 10-years.

    These loans are anything but “Prime” — especially with values down so much and still crashing. As a consumer with half of your income going out to pay a mortgage on a home that is worth half of its value from two-years ago and that you are upside down in by 35%, what is the fastest way to de-lever? Getting rid of the home and renting for half the price enables you to keep up your lifestyle and get your balance sheet back in line overnight.

    On top of Wells $75bb in “Prime” loans they have $84 billion in second mortgages, much of which are also underwater and thereby unsecured given how much values are down. This is the same stuff Bernanke was saying was worth 5 cents on the dollar in his testimony the House a few weeks back.

    Lastly, if I remember correctly they had $25B in subprime still, but don’t hold me to that…hey, maybe that is why they have $33 billion in Level 3 “assets” now.

    At my research business, Field Check Group Real Estate & Finance, we track every single loan default, foreclosure and loss and categorize them by lender, originator etc. I can assure you that Wells has its share of loan defaults. As a matter of fact, Wachovia’s CA originations are performing better at least in CA. If you are an investment fund looking for in-depth, granular research not available anywhere else, shoot me an email. Sorry guys, had to pay the bills.

    Below is Wells Fargo ‘Prime’ ARM program guidelines from 2006. YES, they did Stated Income, interest only etc. See for yourself. VOA = Stated Income/Verification of Assets. SISA = Stated Income/Stated Assets.

  356. chicagofinance says:

    clot: ’til wednesday sounds like an 80’s band….you are f—ing delusional. You sound as if you are fried to a crisp. I think you are turning Bruce Dern on us :(

    You are the Freeman Lowell of the NJ RE Report.

  357. Pat says:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100302844.html

    “…Barclays and State Street had begun making purchases but she refused to say how much had been spent so far. She said the government would give an accounting of that amount in the Treasury Department’s monthly report on the federal budget. “

  358. cooper says:

    Larry’s back at it, i’m amazed that NJAR is still pushing the s*it… no i’m not

    From NJAR week in review-

    Emergency Economic Stabilization Act Signed into Law

    Emergency Economic Stabilization Act Signed into Law

    President George W. Bush signed the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (EESA) today after it was passed by the House of Representatives. The same version was passed by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday evening, October 1, 2008.

    Despite what you may have heard, the legislation will directly benefit our business by making financing more available and helping to stabilize home sales and prices. The NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS® (NAR) Chief Economist, Lawrence Yun, believes taxpayers are likely to reap a positive return on this investment over the long term.

    Yun your an ASS*OLE!

  359. Clotpoll says:

    Chi (370)-

    Delusional? I’m not the racketeer here. My head is screwed on straight.

    The criminals have done everything they can to kill legitimate markets. They have not- and will not- succeed.

  360. leftwing says:

    Looking for a recommendation for the best online broker.

    Most interested in option trading costs, but would also be interested if any one offers any good analytics or data with their platform.

  361. leftwing says:

    Looking for a recommendation for the best online broker.

    Most interested in option trading costs, but would also be interested if any one offers any good analytics or data with their platform.

    EDIT: Also, since i’ll be keeping cash balances in there as well one that will actually be around tomorrow, ie. no principal positions in the toxic stuff.

  362. cooper says:

    Chart of DJIA after bail-out to no where was passed, a vision of stability.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SOcIM8YB8CI/AAAAAAAADak/a0hwkYC7iAE/s1600-h/%24indu-bailout.png

  363. willwork4beer says:

    Grim,

    This week’s report from the hinterlands…

    Hunterdon County Comp Killers

    GSMLS recorded 26 sales in Hunterdon County this week. Three made this list:

    MLS#: 2504393

    10 ALEXANDRA WAY
    Clinton Town

    SLD: 10/18/04 $310,000
    OLP: 04/03/08 $318,000
    SLD: 10/01/08 $273,000

    DOM: 153

    MLS#: 2561354

    28 FAIRVIEW AVE
    Clinton Twp

    SLD: 08/05/04 $340,000
    OLP: 07/31/08 $319,000
    SLD: 09/29/08 $300,000

    DOM: 15

    MLS#: 2566921

    426 WILLOW COURT
    Raritan Twp

    SLD: 12/29/05 $269,000
    OLP: 08/15/08 $252,900
    SLD: 10/03/08 $245,000

    DOM: 14

  364. BC Bob says:

    Chi,

    Just this past week; Russell 200 down 12%, S&P 500, down 9%, Nasadaq, down 10% the Dow down over 7%.

    I’m very confused. Why is Clot delusional? He’s been playing the short side until the criminals took that option away. Why is one delusional, when selling in the midst of a major bear?

  365. Shore Guy says:

    “Paulson may be thinking like this. Just borrow trillions from chinese and other asians for this bailout and default on them later! Is this a crazy idea?”

    Asian Creditor:That is ok America. We understand you cant pay. You got in a bit over your head and lack the cash to pay us back. I understand. But, you know, we can call it even by trading a little land for your bad debt. Lets seee, humm. Oh, yea theis wil do the trick: Guam, Samoa, kingman reef, Hawaii, and whatever other specks of land you happen to occupy in our neck of the woods.

  366. Tom says:

    Ran across this video this morning. It’s from back in march and the guy has some others talking about financial problems we could face. Again, this is from back in march. Haven’t seen all of them to know if he’s a nutjob or not.

    But in this one, he talks about Godlman Sachs creating an wholesale investment product that essentially is betting against the banks. Goldman wins big if a large number of banks lose 50% of their value.

    They created it end of last year.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AXdjfdi6Rg

    Not sure how true it is but Goldman, after investing in subprime for a while, made big money after the market turned south by shorting subprime, so I wouldn’t be surprised.

  367. Shore Guy says:

    Victorian Says:
    “October 3rd, 2008 at 4:25 pm
    Shore –
    You were looking for the DOW figures during the Chimp-in-Chief’s tenure?

    January 20, 2001: 10,659
    October 03, 2008: 10,325
    % Change = -3.1”

    THANKS! George herbert Hoover Bush strikes again. Does anyone have the yearly or compounded inflation rate over that same period?

  368. Shore Guy says:

    “Why are realtors getting off blame free?? Palin was quick to blast the mortgage lenders but what about predatory realtors that KNEW their buyers could not and should not be able to afford these houses they were selling them.”

    Enough already. Really, enough. If I go into a furniture store and the couch is overpriced and the salesman pushes me to buy it anyway, if I purchase it, it is my own d@mned fault. If I go the the butcher and steak is out of my price range and the butcher agrees to allow me to pay it off over 5 weeks and I somehow think “humm great deal I can pay 1/5 the cost each week — without wondering how I will pay for food next week withthat existing food debt burden hanging over me” then it is my own d@mned fault.

    There are heroine dealers who are willing to supply anyone who wants to buy the stuff, and bar tenders willing to serve any alcoholic, and aids-infested prostitutes willing to serve anyone who wants to pay the price of admission. Anyone who takes advantage of such offers brings upon themselves whatever befalls them.

  369. Shore Guy says:

    OOPS, The same holds true for money borrowers. Once one is 18 and able to enter a contract, one needs to be careful. If one does not understand the contract see a bloody lawyer.

  370. willwork4beer says:

    Grim,

    Hinterlands report part 2…

    Hunterdon County FUTURE Comp Killers

    GSMLS listed 51 new actives this week. Only two made this list. (Somebody please pass the KoolAid…)

    MLS#: 2586052

    14 HORSESHOE DR
    Raritan Twp

    SLD: 07/24/06 $598,000
    OLP: 10/03/08 $499,500

    DOM: 1

    MLS#: 2583863

    61 ALBERT DR
    Union Twp

    SLD: 04/12/07 $770,327
    OLP: 09/27/08 $720,000

    DOM: 7

  371. Clotpoll says:

    beer (377)-

    Glad to have had one of my agents make that comp killer at 426 Willow Ct.

    BTW, it barely appraised at the selling price.

  372. cooper says:

    I concur Shore[382-383]

    Beer 384- Carnac the Magnificent, what properties will reduce their price in the next week?
    What is 14 HORSESHOE DR
    Raritan Twp & 61 ALBERT DR
    Union Twp

  373. Clotpoll says:

    beer (384)-

    It should help Toll a lot to see their first buyers in the Albert Dr development already selling for less than they paid…plus undercutting Toll’s prices on houses they’re still trying to unload there.

  374. cooper says:

    oops i think i confused Carnac with Alex Trebek

  375. cooper says:

    384-Beer- any idea what they owe?

  376. renter says:

    I have empathy for people who made some of these mistakes. I think a lot of people did not understand what they were signing.
    People were bidding like they were at an auction at the height of the market. The winner of an auction always pays too much because they are an outlier. Look at the junk… oh I mean collectibles that they sell on e-bay.
    It is hard to resist the pressure to buy a house when everyone around you is telling you to do it. There really is a “herd mentality.”

  377. cooper says:

    Renter[390]- Shore nailed it…”If one does not understand the contract see a bloody lawyer.”
    If they folded & bought due to peer pressure I’d bet owning a crappy mortgage isn’t their only bad decision. Buyer Beware.

  378. Tom says:

    Shore,

    Shouldn’t that also apply to banks, pension funds, and other inestors that are now being bailed out?

    The $300 bailout at least wasn’t so one sided. Lenders were encouraged to modify mortgages. If they did, they both benefit, the borrowers and the lenders because borrowers get to stay in their home and banks continue to receive payments, albeit less. The alternative, foreclosure is much more costly. Investors would also get a benefit as the assets they purchased wouldn’t completely tank.

    The new bailout is completely one sided. It bails out the banks and investors but does nothing for borrowers.

    The treasury might as well buy up a percentage of homes in trouble and rent them to the borrowers with a 5 year lease. That way homeowners get some relief and the non performing assets are now performing assets.

    Pay for it by taxing the lenders and investment banks that made the bad deals with borrowers and investors.

  379. BC Bob says:

    Jim [393],

    Yeah, the timing of Paulson’s plan, along with the short sale ban, was impeccable. Right at the same time, Goldman was about to be scorched. Nothing to see here, probably just a coincidence.

  380. BC Bob says:

    “The unblinkable fact is that Americans own too much house. We overpaid and overborrowed, and many of us are “upside down,” as the car dealers say. What to do? Recognize the losses and write them off. What not to do? Inflate the currency and debase accounting standards.”

    “When the Fed insists it has no choice but to print up hundreds of billions of new dollars and when the keepers of accounting standards bend in the face of criticism that market prices hurt, what they are really saying is the that financial truth is too awful to bear. Heaven help us all if they’re right.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100303309.html

  381. 3b says:

    #395 BC Bob: So true. I guess we just have to sit back and watch it all unfold.

    I think we will see house prices go back to late 90’s. Unless money is absolutley no concern,anybody looking to buy in this market is insane IMO.

  382. Confused In NJ says:

    Neither candidate wants to address the National Debt Issue. It’s hard to deal with the Fact that the US is effectively Bankrupt. The Bailout would be more realistic if it funded Soup Kitchens and Apple Carts.

  383. 3b says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trXUbBuhs7s

    This could be the them song for our current crisis.

  384. 3b says:

    #398 them=theme

  385. Victorian says:

    Fun Fact picked up from CR..

    Everyone who bought an S&P 500 fund for the last 4 years to the day are in a losing position. Everyone who dollar cost averaged into an S&P 500 fund every week for the last 10 years is down by 10.7% – for the full 10 years.

  386. Shore Guy says:

    “Neither candidate wants to address the National Debt Issue”

    And except for a passing comment by P during her debate with B, the candidates are not talking about overspending or debt by consumers.

  387. sas says:

    WHAT? you gotta be kiding.

    ‘Air Carriers’ Outsourcing of Aircraft Maintenance”
    http://tinyurl.com/3ezoak

  388. sas says:

    I repeat:

    “these debates are nothing but WWF wrestling… there to make you think you really have a choice, as to what puppet you will elect, and the outcome has already been selected. (both parties are owned by the SAME corporate interests)

    ha ha.. wake up suckers!

    you’ve been had brother.”

    SAS

  389. Shore Guy says:

    “Shouldn’t that also apply to banks, pension funds, and other inestors that are now being bailed out?”

    Yes.

  390. Confused In NJ says:

    Obama may solve the Debt Crisis when he outsources the military to China. That’s 50% of the Budget that would drop to 1%.

  391. Tom says:

    ““Shouldn’t that also apply to banks, pension funds, and other inestors that are now being bailed out?”

    Yes.”

    Well then tell those bums down there to stop chasing interns and do something :)

  392. cooper says:

    sas402-
    ‘Air Carriers’ Outsourcing of Aircraft Maintenance”

    that will do wonders for homeland security, i feel safer already

  393. Shore Guy says:

    SAS,

    This has been going on for awhile. It sure doesn’t make me happy. The other thing that should make fliers queezy is the ability of a computer virus to bring down a plane.

  394. Shore Guy says:

    Cooper,

    Don’t get me started on the DHS. From an up-front-and-personal view, we should not have great faith in their ability to do much beyond spend money.

  395. Clotpoll says:

    BC (394)-

    GS and MS were well on the way to Patterson-land (toast). GS had busted under 100 with no bid in sight. After MER had been wiped out, all the buzzards turned on MS…and they probably wouldn’t have made the weekend. If MS had merged with Wachovia, both outfits would’ve gone down in flames.

    The killer is, both those companies deserved to be wiped out…and the criminal short sale ban allowed MS and GS time to reconstitute in the form of kinder, gentler criminal enterprises.

    However, I suspect Roubini was right. Even as bank holding companies, they are still broken entities, now having neither actual commercial banking expertise nor a deposit base.

    Before long, I think Mr. Market may be nipping at their heels again.

  396. Clotpoll says:

    (409)-

    BTW, all disclaimers. GS and MS are known to be criminal enterprises, run by gangsters.

  397. lisoosh says:

    #395

    That’s not reasoned analysis or asking pointed questions about the viability of the “plan”.

    He is obviously just a poor bitter uneducated saver and grandstander experiencing schadenfreude who doesn’t understand the consequences of not passing the bill.

    He just isn’t in the trenches. He is an anarchist. He isn’t considering the social turmoil to come if we don’t print cash over and over.

  398. Shore Guy says:

    lisoosh,

    Soon we may be able to print our own at home, since the value of the currency seems not to be a concern of anyone in power.

  399. Shore Guy says:

    from the Asbury Park Press:

    “Shore-area residents grudgingly gave their approval to the $700 billion bailout package passed Friday by the House of Representatives and signed by President Bush, but were left looking for answers to an even more important question: Will it work?”

    Will it work? WILL IT WORK!!!!?????????!!!!!!!!1

    This is the question to ask BEFORE voting, not after.

  400. Cindy says:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/98471-credit-crisis-reality-tv-upcoming-hearings?source=email

    The next few weeks of C-Span will be like a new credit crisis reality TV show.

    10/8/08 Causes and Effects of Lehman (Leh) Brothers Bankruptcy

    10/9/08 Causes and Effects of the AIG Bailout

    10/16/08 The Regulation of Hedge Funds

    10/22/08 The Breakdown of the Credit Rating Agencies

    10/23/08 The Role of Federal Regulators on Meltdown

    House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

    Shore – 413 – Like this maybe? Isn’t this what you first?

  401. sas says:

    “The next few weeks of C-Span will be like a new credit crisis reality TV show”

    should be one hell of a week.
    I have my DVR all ready.

    SAS

  402. Shore Guy says:

    Well, then, I guess we spent $700B for nothing.

    yahoo.com/raw?dp=rssnews&u=ap/20081004/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown_credit&rn=topstories

    snip

    Experts say the most important thing that needs to happen before the $700 billion bailout even has a chance of working: Home prices must stop falling. That would send a signal to banks that the worst has passed and it’s safe to start doling out money again.

    snip

  403. sas says:

    “Omama truth squad”
    http://www.kmov.com/video/index.html?nvid=285793&shu=1

    another shot against the first amaendment.
    and some of you think Omama is going to bring “change”.

    lol, oh man. you’ve been had!

    no, I’m not a Songbird McStain fan neither.

    Both candidates work for the same central banks & corporate interests. not you the brainwashed consumer.

    SAS

  404. Misha Mishima says:

    Grim mentioned the fact that WFC went after WB was evidence that the Gov didn’t have to bail anyone out, as the private sector was fully capable of setting things right. Well, we learned from reading the bailout bill that WFC has great tax incentives to go after WB as the GOV will yet subsidize this WFC venture by allowing WFC to carry back WB’s losses to offset prior years WFC profits. LOL, our gov just can’t help itself but subsidize the banksters, Buffett & Paulson’s friends.

  405. BC Bob says:

    Clot [409],

    Funny you should bring up Elvis P. There will be some burnt toast this weekend. Watch for some major European banks to either be forced to merge, nationalized or TARPED [if they have a US affiliate].

    Just another Manic Monday.

  406. bairen says:

    #402 SAS

    Some international airlines are outsourcing their maintenance to China. I think that will end just as well as the toys, gluten, and milk from china did.

  407. Misha Mishima says:

    bai-ren…sounds a bit weixian!

  408. woody says:

    shore guy i totally disagree with you. I am a pharmacist and if a patient brought me a script for a drug they did not need I would call the doctor…switch the drug or discontinue it…ure full of shit

  409. woody says:

    i question all of your morals

  410. woody says:

    shore guys answer left me feeling so dirty i’m off to another blog….a blog that doesn’t make me feel that most Americans are greedy noncompassionate dirt balls

  411. Shore Guy says:

    Cindy,

    Oregon State put a hurting on USC, I see.

  412. Shore Guy says:

    See Ya, Woody.

  413. woody says:

    Shore guy I do hope you get drunk and pick up an Atlantic City prostitute with AIDS…contract it and die…As your house goes into foreclosure you scumbag

  414. Cindy says:

    (425) Shore

    “Oregon State put a hurting on USC”

    Can you believe that! My brother said it was a very close game. (He lives in Corvallis.)

    Today, UofO Ducks play USC 5:00 my time. I don’t know what they are ranked now but it isn’t #1.

    Those Oregon boys LOVE to mess with Californians.

  415. Shore Guy says:

    Woody. The thing is that I am responsible not to do that. I take contracts seriously and I do not expect anyone to protect me from myself. Clearly, you see the world differently. I suspect you prefer a more intrusive government than am I.

    I regret that one in your profession seems to lack the ability to have an exchange of divergent viewpoints without devolving into name calling and pettiness. We see the world and the role of personal responsibility, big deal. That is what places like this are about, talking things out.

    Wheras you wish I contract a deadly illness, just because I lack your bleeding-heart outlook, I wish you well and hope you someday develop the ability to constructively engage with those who differ from you.

  416. pain participant says:

    The parallels between the bailout and the Bush family Iraq Wars (of 1991 and 2003) are startling.

    In both cases, the Federal Government created a legal framework of permissive behavior and actively pursued policies that, to many observers, seemed destined to create disasters: just as we supported Saddam Hussein and armed him to the teeth in an effort to thwart Iran, citizens who had no business taking on long-term debts were encouraged to sign-up for a variety of winked-at loans in an effort to create an Ownership Society.

    Just as the Government obscured the warning signs that Hussein was unreliable (gassing the Kurds), it created (sometimes through deregulation) additional regulatory structures to obscure the true nature of the debt being generated. Hussein is sold to the population as an ally against Iran; homeownership is sold as a veritable civic duty.

    Finally, when the disaster broke, the naked evidence of our aiding and abetting of the prior several years was effectively forgotten, and the events that many had predicted for years was treated as an unforeseen existential crisis.

    In the case of Iraq, we have a case study of two types of crises response. Bush the Elder’s was more tempered – Iraq certainly lost blood and treasure in Gulf War I, but the toll to the United States was light. We left with our favorite dictator securely in place, the bear back in its lair.

    Bush the Younger, an incompetent of unprecedented magnitude, created the second Iraq War on the back of our useful dictator, using him as a ruse for his reluctance to go after our dear Saudi friends.

    For this the Iraqi’s have paid dearly, and the true scope of our bill, as graphic and tragic as it has been to date, will ripple down several generations in a waterfall of blood and treasure.

    That said, those in the business of destroying and rebuilding Iraq have done very well under these circumstances – the profits to defense manufacturers and infrastructure firms such as Haliburton, plugged into no-bid contracts awarded in a time of War (while we’re encouraged to sleep tight and shop) have provided them with unprecedented profits.

    So now we have a nearly trillion dollar bailout, coming on the heals of the largest Ponzi scheme the world has ever seen, like Shock and Awe rolling into the presidential compound of the ownership society.

    And in the same way we’ve farmed out civil jobs in Iraq to Halliburton, we’re handing this bailout cash over to private enterprise, to the very same people who sold the CDOs and other sliced & diced bonds that got us to this moment.

    So in a similar way that military families and their patriotism have been exploited to carry the terrible costs of the Iraq war, the citizens of the USA who’ve bothered to live within their means for the past decade are having their treasure extracted to serve the ruling class of the country, lining the pockets of those who’s fortune is sufficient to garner the sympathy of Washington.

    As I wrote in an earlier post, our ship is being stripped by the crew, the looters are extracting every bit of value from the hull before they abandon ship.

    They stand on the prow directing these activities because they, like they ocean, have capital great, wide and fluid, and apparently not an ounce of concern for the future of our land and people.

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another…

  417. Shore Guy says:

    Oh, one more thing, Woody. One cannot have foreclosed property that lacks a mortgage.

  418. Happy Camper says:

    @430

    people voted for the Younger TWICE. Maybe they will pay more attention next time. If they don’t, then it serves us well.

    go people, go vote for Folksy.

    HC

  419. Mc678 says:

    @139 – lishoosh, you’re dishonest

    The Lobby

    By Paul Craig Roberts – VDARE.com

    Experts in the West and ordinary people in Arab lands have understood for many years that the United States does not have an independent policy toward the Middle East. President Jimmy Carter, a man of good will, tried to use American influence to settle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the source of dangerous instability in the Middle East. However, Israel was able to block Carter’s attempt, while blaming Yasser Arafat. Carter’s plan would have given rise to a Palestinian state. Israel did not want any such state, because obvious military aggression is necessary in order to steal the territory of an official state with defined borders. It is much easier to steal land from a non-state.

    By preventing the rise of a Palestinian state, Israel has been able to continue with its theft of the West Bank. Palestinians who have not been driven out have been forced into ghettos, cut off from schools, hospitals, water, and their olive groves and farmlands. In a recent book, President Carter called the existing situation “apartheid.” Carter was demonized by the Israel Lobby for his use of this word, but some experts consider Carter’s choice of words to be an euphemism for the continuation of what I. Pappe and N. G. Finkelstein call “the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.”

    That the vast majority of Americans know nothing of this is testimony to the power of the Israel Lobby.

    A number of writers have exposed Israel’s misbehavior and the power of the Lobby, but until now, the Lobby has been able to marginalize its critics by smearing them as “anti-Semites,” “Nazis,” and “Jew-haters.” In a new book, John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt have broken the Israel Lobby’s power to suppress truth by demonizing and intimidating all who would criticize Israel.

    Mearsheimer and Walt are distinguished scholars holding distinguished appointments at the University of Chicago and Harvard University, two of America’s most distinguished universities. Their book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, published by the distinguished American publisher, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, is a masterpiece of scholarship and documentation. Footnotes comprise 23 percent of the book’s pages.

    Mearsheimer and Walt easily succeed in making their case that neither strategic nor moral grounds can explain U.S. support for Israel. Only the power of the Israel Lobby can explain the juxtaposition of a dwindling moral and strategic case with ever-increasing U.S. backing for Israel, even to the disadvantage of U.S. national and strategic interests. Indeed, both executive and legislative branches are so completely compromised by the Lobby that the different elements of U.S. Middle East policy “have been designed in whole or part to benefit Israel vis-à-vis its various rivals.”

    Chapter by chapter, Mearsheimer and Walt demonstrate the deleterious effects the Lobby has had on U.S. relations with Palestinians, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Lebanon. The two scholars conclude:

    “The lobby’s influence helped lead the United States into a disastrous war in Iraq and has hamstrung efforts to deal with Syria and Iran. It also encouraged the United States to back Israel’s ill-conceived assault on Lebanon, a campaign that strengthened Hezbollah, drove Syria and Iran closer together, and further tarnished America’s global image. The lobby bears considerable, though not complete, responsibility for each of these developments, and none of them was good for the United States. The bottom line is hard to escape, although America’s problems in the Middle East would not disappear if the lobby were less influential, U.S. leaders would find it easier to explore alternative approaches and be more likely to adopt policies more in line with American interests.”
    There is nothing anti-Semitic about this book. Mearsheimer and Walt do not challenge Israel’s right to exist or the legitimacy of the Israeli state. They believe the U.S. must defend Israel from threats to its survival. They even regard AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, as a legitimate American lobby and not as an unregistered agent of a foreign state.

    The motives of the two scholars, apart from respect for truth and the obligation to speak it, are to further Israel’s and America’s legitimate interests. Mearsheimer and Walt agree with numerous Israeli historians and commentators that Israel’s policy toward Palestine and the Arabs, together with the Lobby’s suppression of critics, have been “directly harmful to Israel.” The inflexibility that Israel has imposed on U.S. foreign policy has America mired in wars—now a half decade or more old—in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even as Muslim rage threatens to engulf America’s puppet in Pakistan, vice president Dick Cheney, Israel and its neoconservative allies strive to initiate war with Iran.

    This is a high price to pay for Israeli territorial expansion even if the U.S.-Israeli policy of war and coercion succeed. If military aggression fails to bring the Middle East under the hegemony of the U.S. and Israel, the dangers to energy flows and Israel’s existence could result in the use of nuclear weapons.

    It is literally insane for the United States to expose the world to such risks for the sake of Israel’s misguided policy toward Palestine.

    Other scholars, especially those whose sense of justice is offended by the cruel oppression Palestinians suffer at the hands of Israel, are more critical than Mearsheimer and Walt. The latter do Israel and the Lobby a service by defining the issue as one of U.S. and Israeli legitimate national interests rather than casting it as a case of crimes, inhumanity, and injustice.

    Instead of legitimate national interests, James Petras, Bartle Professor Emeritus of Sociology at Binghamton University in New York, sees “a level of crimes parallel to those of the Nazis in World War II.” (The Power of Israel in the United States, 2006). Petras writes that

    “the architects of the Iraqi war planned a series of aggressive wars of conquest based on the principle of domination by violence, torture, collective punishment, total war on civilian populations, their homes, hospitals, cultural heritage, churches and mosques, means of livelihood and educational institutions. These are the highest crimes against humanity.”
    “The worst crimes,” Petras writes, “are committed by those who claim to be a divinely chosen people, a people with ‘righteous’ claims of supreme victimhood.”

    It remains to be seen how much more blood and treasure Zionist fanaticism will extract from Americans. But one thing is certain: the Israel Lobby is far too powerful for America’s good and Israel’s.

    Forty years ago the Lobby was sufficiently powerful to force President Lyndon Johnson to cover up the intentional Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that resulted in 34 Americans dead and 174 wounded. Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff declared: “No American President can stand up to Israel.”

    Forty years later the Israel Lobby is able to reach into Catholic universities and to overturn tenure decisions. The courageous scholar Norman Finkelstein was denied tenure at DePaul University in Chicago, Illinois, because he is an effective critic of Israeli policies.

    In America today academics and intellectuals who fail to toe the Lobby’s line are unlikely to receive support from conservative or liberal foundations. Even Mearsheimer and Walt’s article, “The Israel Lobby,” commissioned by the Atlantic Monthly and from which their book evolved, had to be published overseas in The London Review of Books when the Atlantic Monthly’s editors’ courage failed them.

    American patriots who glorify in their country’s status as the “sole superpower” have much to learn about the subservience of their country’s foreign policy to a tiny state of five million people.

    There is no better place to begin than with Mearsheimer and Walt’s The Israel Lobby.

  420. Essex says:

    433…..^^there is much you do not understand young jedi….

  421. lisoosh says:

    434- Everybody knows whatever you get online is automatically gospel.

  422. Mc678 says:

    U. of Chicago and Harvard – flakes!

  423. reinvestor101 says:

    Actually, Mearsheimer and Walt have written a definitive study on the power of the Isreali lobby on the American political scene and why is it that it can’t even be discussed? Loan guarantees or not, we have given billions to Israel and have gotten mostly grief in return as we promote policies not in alignment with the interests of the American people. Since when it is that we can’t openly question this relationship and whether or not it is working for the benefit of the US? It’s almost as if one can’t even raise the issue for examination.

  424. Boris Badenough says:

    America is good country ,you don’t have to own a home ,to share in the joy of owning a mortgage …Good country this America

  425. Cindy says:

    Sorry – thought it would show the title: #439

    Credit Swaps Show Fear, Not Reality, Executives Say

  426. Cindy says:

    So are the swaps causing some equities to go down unnecessarily? I know you all say it isn’t the short-selling.

  427. chicagofinance says:

    RE101: WTF are you doing? Any vilification of Israel is, by definition, taking the country’s actions out of context. If you physically reviewed the terrain in size and strategic positioning, as well as the behavior of all parties involved, the is no rational discussion that can be defended. You think that the judgements of two academics that are 8000 miles away has any bearing here? You embarrass yourself with your series of aliases…

    L: still waiting for your Schiff references. I want to make a good faith effort to state my position.

  428. Cindy says:

    Hey Chicago – Maybe you could help me with this…

    So the speculators do these swaps – then the company goes down a bit in troubled times and a new cost to them kicks in causing them more financial problems…then they fail to meet their debt agreement..something like that –
    Where are the speculators making their money? On the increase once they fall that percentage behind?

  429. bairen says:

    #437 re101

    Did i get another head injury or am being secretly medicated? 101 seems to have become more logical, even if you disagree with his/her opinions.

  430. Barbara says:

    Lot a love in here…….Lot a love…..

  431. bairen says:

    Can’t we all just get along?

  432. Cindy says:

    444 – Bairen – Because of the expanded vocabulary, I figured he read it somewhere.

  433. bairen says:

    I appreciate Rich and beer’s comp killers.

    Good work guys.

  434. bairen says:

    #447 Cindy,

    That explains it.

  435. reinvestor101 says:

    Chi,

    To raise the question doesn’t equate to vilification. The question is simply being raised. The fact that Mearsheimer and Walt aren’t located right in the “neighborhood” doesn’t mean that the question can’t be raised. They don’t berate Israel nor do they suggest that the US abandon Israel as an ally, they simply raise the question whether the relationship as constituted is in the interests of the US or Israel itself for that matter. If we can talk about whether it’s prudent to spend 700 billion dollars of taxpayer money in the financial crisis, then surely we can talk about any budget item involving taxpayer dollars–including Israel and whether those dollars are being spent effectively.

    RE101: WTF are you doing? Any vilification of Israel is, by definition, taking the country’s actions out of context. If you physically reviewed the terrain in size and strategic positioning, as well as the behavior of all parties involved, the is no rational discussion that can be defended. You think that the judgements of two academics that are 8000 miles away has any bearing here? You embarrass yourself with your series of aliases…

  436. bairen says:

    I’m having a liquidity crisis. I’m all out of beer.

  437. Essex says:

    My opinion is that Israel is supported due to the American Jewish lobby. Powerful, influential, and realize that a Jewish homeland…even one as contentious as Israel is key to the survival of the Jewish people. Live through a systematic extermination and then tell me how comfortable you feel about life on Earth. No one has suffered more than the Jews — no one.

  438. chicagofinance says:

    BC Bob Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 8:36 am
    Chi, Just this past week; Russell 200 down 12%, S&P 500, down 9%, Nasadaq, down 10% the Dow down over 7%. I’m very confused. Why is Clot delusional? He’s been playing the short side until the criminals took that option away. Why is one delusional, when selling in the midst of a major bear?

    Bost: There is investing and there is nihilism. Nihilism implies emotion to me. When you cease to remain objective, you can make fundamental strategic investment errors.

    What I am observing is not something that I find constructive for people who are striving to acheive goals. Clot has a natural hedge relative to his business, so I respect his overall strategy as shrewd and opportunistic, and ultimately rather prudent. That said, there should not be such a paranoid sounding mania that suggests that the blood means more than the money…..and I don’t think that to espouse such a viewpoint here is constructive.

  439. reinvestor101 says:

    No one is arguing whether or not the Jews have suffered.

    The question is whether the relationship, as currently constituted between our two nations is an optimal one for the US.

    Essex Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
    My opinion is that Israel is supported due to the American Jewish lobby. Powerful, influential, and realize that a Jewish homeland…even one as contentious as Israel is key to the survival of the Jewish people. Live through a systematic extermination and then tell me how comfortable you feel about life on Earth. No one has suffered more than the Jews — no one.

  440. reinvestor101 says:

    A point of clarification here. I think Mearsheimer and Walt has raised a legitimate point of inquiry. Inquiry forms the very basis of the acquisition of knowledge. If we don’t allow questions to be raised and answered, how can new knowledge be acquired?

  441. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Re 101 Making to much sense kinda scary.

  442. bairen says:

    I think 101’s been reading Socrates.

  443. sas says:

    “No one has suffered more than the Jews — no one”

    I’ll remember that one next time I am in
    Rwanda, sierra leone, sudan, afghanistan, North Korea.

    SAS

    (ps. never been to N. Korea)

  444. Essex says:

    Eh, the US is so screwed up right now….that Israel is really the least of our worries.

  445. Essex says:

    458..SAS….I am sure you had a point there somewhere though.

  446. reinvestor101 says:

    Not to worry, I’ll slap myself here eventually and get back to calling you a commie and a terrorist! There’s a lot of material that lends itself to that, but I just want to take a break from that for a moment and be serious.

    Mikeinwaiting Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
    Re 101 Making to much sense kinda scary.

  447. bairen says:

    I kind of miss the old 101.

    Wish Booya Bob would come back.

  448. sas says:

    “SAS….I am sure you had a point there somewhere though”

    sure thing bloke.
    I disagree when I hear statements like:
    “No one has suffered more than the Jews — no one”.

    I’ve been all over the globe, and fought in a war. People in many countries have been suffered, killed, and destroyed in many countries (like the ones I mentioned above).

    Just because they were not Jewish, doesn’t make this suffering any less.

    SAS

  449. sas says:

    I think I just opened a can of worms.
    yikes!

    SAS

  450. sas says:

    “I do hope you get drunk and pick up an Atlantic City prostitute”

    If I had all my money back for each time I did this back in the early 70s.. wow, I would have some serious jack!

    Also, the money back from the cities of Vegas, Bangkok, montevideo.

    SAS

  451. Mikeinwaiting says:

    That’s it Re 101 stay the course. By the way I’m a righty. A rare bird on this board.

    SAS Yep.

  452. Automatically Irrational says:

    Anyone who criticizes Jews or a Jewish cause is by definition irrational. End of discussion.

    As for Reinvestor … You, Sir, are worse than Hitler.

  453. sas says:

    “Automatically Irrational”

    bloke, whatever your on.. I would like some before I goto work on Mon.

    or the next time I have to hand over another check to ex-wives (yup, plural)

    SAS

  454. sas says:

    took me 5 times to get it right.
    Try having your wife being younger than your oldest daughter.

    I am walking the freak show.

    :)
    SAS

  455. reinvestor101 says:

    Does that apply to any other group? Does that apply to any other situation? Should we just cut off inquiry and just rollover and spend another $ 700 billion if the first $ 700 billion rescue plan doesn’t work?

    The fact of the matter is that inquiry is the most rational act that one can engage in, particularly when questioning past practices. It is through inquiry that we can obtain better knowledge and certainly better policies. Using your definition, this entire blog should have never existed as it raised questions about real estate markets and related finance.

    If the policy is correct and appropriate, it can withstand inquiry.

    Anyone who criticizes Jews or a Jewish cause is by definition irrational. End of discussion.

    As for Reinvestor … You, Sir, are worse than Hitler.

  456. sas says:

    grab some popcorn .. sit back .. watch a great video! .. how Our Dear Omama is inspiring Omama Youth ..

    One fun puzzle question, See if you can guess what’s missing from this video.

    Hint: Contains the letters and numbers a, k, 4 and 7.

    http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=rUEQz5dltmI

  457. reinvestor101 says:

    You know, I’m starting to take umbrage at being called Hitler. I’m the one who’s in charge of calling the names here. Just remember that.

  458. Seneca says:

    If you think Mearsheimer and Walt pose a legitimate argument, and you don’t consider yourself an Anti-Semite, you owe it to yourself to read the counter-argument.

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/research/working_papers/dershowitzreply.pdf

    I don’t know many Jews looking to win the “most victimized people” award but their take on most of their holidays is amusing (cause its sort of true): “They tried to kill us, we won, let’s eat.” – Jackie Mason

  459. sas says:

    “reinvestor101”

    are you sure you didn’t go down to AC or Vegas and get yourself a call girl?

    you seem pretty tame as of late.

    SAS

  460. reinvestor101 says:

    sas,

    I made a resolution to hold my temper and not let anyone get under my skin, although “automatically irrational” almost pushed my button by calling me a terrorist.

  461. sas says:

    Jamie Gorelick was one of the Fannie executives who benefited from inflated bonuses based on Enron-style accounting.

    She was Vice Chairman of Fannie Mae from 1997 to 2003 (Fannie’s fraudulent accounting scheme was made public in 2004).

    This is the same Jamie Gorelick who was Deputy Attorney General in the mid 1990s and was reported to have been the author of the Clinton Administration’s WALL against sharing intelligence data between foreign and domestic agencies.

    “Jamie Gorelick’s wall”
    http://tinyurl.com/3v5swm

    SAS

  462. reinvestor101 says:

    Why is it that a mere reference or belief that Mearsheimer and Walt raised a legitimate point of inquiry make me an Anti-Semite? I said nothing against Jews or the nation of Israel. I proposed no specific policy or policy change nor was I looking to pick a fight with anyone. I just said that they raised a legitimate point of inquiry.

    I’ll read Dershowitz’s treatise later, but it’s well known that he’s not the most unbaised source.

    Seneca Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
    If you think Mearsheimer and Walt pose a legitimate argument, and you don’t consider yourself an Anti-Semite, you owe it to yourself to read the counter-argument.

  463. sas says:

    “MindBox, Inc., the worldwide leader in providing artificial intelligence applications to automate complex business and operations processes for the financial services industry, today announced an impressive client roster consisting of many of the top lenders and financial institutions in the country.

    Customers include industry leaders such as Countrywide Home Loans, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, HomeSide Lending, Mortgage.com, GE Capital Corporation, and Upland Mortgage. MindBox expects to add to this list in the coming months, resulting in revenues forecasted to exceed $20 million in its first fiscal year.”

    http://tinyurl.com/3mcfar

    SAS

  464. Automatically Irrational says:

    Any criticism of Israel is by definition irrational. As Chicago Finance instructs. (I concur.)

    Anti-Semitism, by its very nature, is completely irrational. There is usually no logical reason for anyone to criticize a Jewish cause. If they do – they’re crazy.

    They’re nuts.

    Alan Dershowitz is a model of reasoned, unbiased thought who has never been known to take a pro-Israel stance in his career.

    Prejudice – in any form – is irrational.

    However, Jews are allowed call non-Jews goyim, shiksas, and gentiles. This is a privilege afforded to the “Chosen People.”

  465. bi says:

    479#, forget about Alan Dershowitz’s spin. his #1 client just got convicted today.

    http://www.time.com/time/community/transcripts/1999/060999dershowitz.html

  466. Victorian says:

    This is one of the most cogent explanation I have read, which details why this Bail-Out wont work.
    BC Bob/ Chifi – Would love your inputs on this.

    “I’ve been thinking mostly about the durations issue, mostly because it’s really obvious something is going badly wrong in the commercial paper market. If you look at the volume report http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/CP/volumestats.htm overall paper is actually *up* but the longer durations (20+ days) are way down. For example: the overall market average for the week of Oct 3 is 183,610, up from 2008 average of 148,710. But 20-40 day paper is only 6,778, *way* down from the yearly average of 15,864.

    So the market has lost about 2/3s of its ability to convert liquidity to 30-day loans. 90-day is probably similar although there are technical issues with analyzing the chart because 90-day would expire during the end of year crunch so there probably isn’t much demand. Next week we’ll be able to look at 90-days again.

    One of the most critical functions of the banking system is converting short-term deposits into longer-term loans for businesses. Much of the working capital market, for decades has come via money market funds (MM). Joe public or Joe CFO deposits money into a MM. That MM loans it to a bank (usually by buying paper, and usually at a medium duration) and then that bank loans it out to business for inventory, payroll or whatever. The MM has converted Joe’s demand deposit into a fixed-duration loan.

    The problem we’re having is that people are fleeing commercial MM for treasury MM. Those are buying treasuries and thus converting the money to the desirable medium duration BUT that money is loaned to the Fed, and the Fed doesn’t make working capital loans. So the deposited money that had been made into working capital has been diverted into the Fed and lost to working capital.

    The Fed is kind of trying to address this by loaning out money via various auction/discount windows. BUT, those loans have been overwhelmingly overnight – a particularly nasty demand deposit because it goes back so fast. For a bank to convert that to a 90-day loan it’s got to win 90 auctions in a row – a very risky deal with a crunch on. So the Fed undoes the duration conversion, and then some, converting the liquidity into a form that the banks can’t make into useful-duration loans.

    Right now we have both commercial and treasury MMs. Deposits have shifted from commercial MMs to treasury MMs, and consequently we have less working capital (a commercial MM product) and better credit for the Fed (a treasury MM product). But, treasury MM rates are now very low and the gap between treasury and commercial fairly high, which creates an incentive for depositors to put money into commercial funds, producing some working capital.

    When Paulson dumps out his 700 billion in treasuries it’s going to be at the short end. That will drive up rates for short-term treasuries. This will obviously draw even *more* deposits into the treasury MMs. That means even less in the commercial MMs and thus less working credit, the eventual commercial MM product. Hence Paulson’s billions remove working capital by competing for the deposits that could get used to make working capital loans. That 700 billion is going to go to fairly long-term mortgage securities. So Paulson’s billions divert credit from working capital to long-term mortgages – from where it’s most needed to where it’s most wasted.

    Even if the giveaway adequately props up the banks, which I doubt, they still can’t make working capital loans, because the raw material they used (commercial MM deposits) will be desperately short.

    I think it’s very telling that in two days of hearings and two weeks of discussion we have yet to see *any* detailed mechanism for how Paulson’s plan will increase the supply of, say, inventory loans. It’s not that every economist in the world is an idiot, it’s just not going to help. I think people have fallen into the fallacy that if it costs a lot it must be valuable. Paulson’s plan falls into the category of very expensive way to hurt ourselves.”

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/more-discussion-of-why-bailout-bill.html

  467. Victorian says:

    This is one of the most cogent explanation I have read, which details why this Bail-Out wont work.
    BC Bob/ Chifi – Would love your inputs on this.

    “I’ve been thinking mostly about the durations issue, mostly because it’s really obvious something is going badly wrong in the commercial paper market. If you look at the volume report http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/CP/volumestats.htm overall paper is actually *up* but the longer durations (20+ days) are way down. For example: the overall market average for the week of Oct 3 is 183,610, up from 2008 average of 148,710. But 20-40 day paper is only 6,778, *way* down from the yearly average of 15,864.

    So the market has lost about 2/3s of its ability to convert liquidity to 30-day loans. 90-day is probably similar although there are technical issues with analyzing the chart because 90-day would expire during the end of year crunch so there probably isn’t much demand. Next week we’ll be able to look at 90-days again.

    One of the most critical functions of the banking system is converting short-term deposits into longer-term loans for businesses. Much of the working capital market, for decades has come via money market funds (MM). Joe public or Joe CFO deposits money into a MM. That MM loans it to a bank (usually by buying paper, and usually at a medium duration) and then that bank loans it out to business for inventory, payroll or whatever. The MM has converted Joe’s demand deposit into a fixed-duration loan.

    The problem we’re having is that people are fleeing commercial MM for treasury MM. Those are buying treasuries and thus converting the money to the desirable medium duration BUT that money is loaned to the Fed, and the Fed doesn’t make working capital loans. So the deposited money that had been made into working capital has been diverted into the Fed and lost to working capital.

    The Fed is kind of trying to address this by loaning out money via various auction/discount windows. BUT, those loans have been overwhelmingly overnight – a particularly nasty demand deposit because it goes back so fast. For a bank to convert that to a 90-day loan it’s got to win 90 auctions in a row – a very risky deal with a crunch on. So the Fed undoes the duration conversion, and then some, converting the liquidity into a form that the banks can’t make into useful-duration loans.

    Right now we have both commercial and treasury MMs. Deposits have shifted from commercial MMs to treasury MMs, and consequently we have less working capital (a commercial MM product) and better credit for the Fed (a treasury MM product). But, treasury MM rates are now very low and the gap between treasury and commercial fairly high, which creates an incentive for depositors to put money into commercial funds, producing some working capital.

    When Paulson dumps out his 700 billion in treasuries it’s going to be at the short end. That will drive up rates for short-term treasuries. This will obviously draw even *more* deposits into the treasury MMs. That means even less in the commercial MMs and thus less working credit, the eventual commercial MM product. Hence Paulson’s billions remove working capital by competing for the deposits that could get used to make working capital loans. That 700 billion is going to go to fairly long-term mortgage securities. So Paulson’s billions divert credit from working capital to long-term mortgages – from where it’s most needed to where it’s most wasted.

    Even if the giveaway adequately props up the banks, which I doubt, they still can’t make working capital loans, because the raw material they used (commercial MM deposits) will be desperately short.

    I think it’s very telling that in two days of hearings and two weeks of discussion we have yet to see *any* detailed mechanism for how Paulson’s plan will increase the supply of, say, inventory loans. It’s not that every economist in the world is an idiot, it’s just not going to help. I think people have fallen into the fallacy that if it costs a lot it must be valuable. Paulson’s plan falls into the category of very expensive way to hurt ourselves.”

  468. Victorian says:

    Here is the link for the above –

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/more-discussion-of-why-bailout-bill.html

    Grim – 484 is in moderation, multiple links. Could you please delete it?

  469. bairen says:

    #473 sas,

    That justlooks like a fraternity pledge line to me. one of my roommates pledged a frat like that. His whole pledge class had to wear matching camouflage pants and t-shirts, march through the school in line, and do drills like those kids.

  470. Seneca says:

    re101

    I am not calling you an Anti-Semite; I think my call to read the Dershowitz counterpoint got lost in translation in my post.

    What I was trying to say was, if a reader of this blog considers themselves Anti-Semitic, then don’t bother reading the counter-argument because it will just be a waste of your time.

    If you don’t consider yourself Anti-Semetic, read the article and at least have the opposing viewpoint to weigh against the M&W piece. That’s all. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course Dershowitz is coming from a particular point-of-view (and arguably well-defended) but I believe M&W also have a ‘bent’ to their working paper. There are two sides to every story, or working paper in this case.

    Automatically Irrational – I suspect you, like most people, don’t understand what it means for the Jews to be the Chosen People. It in no way implies any sort of superiority but rather a series of obligations that Jews are meant to follow in order to fulfill their Covenant with God. I am certain a basic Google search can more intelligently explain the true meaning than I can here.

  471. bi says:

    486#, at the begining of final month before Nov. 4th, M camp finally figure it out that he still can win the election to move the topic to who you can trust. as bill clinton pointed out 1 months ago, you may agree with your candidate 100% of the time on the issues but it doesn’t work if he cannot deliver. O is good in memorizing all the talking points given by his 300 economic advisers and 300 foreign policy advisers. but tell me one or two things he actually did as a state senator and US senator?

  472. alia says:

    475- seneca- thank you! scholarly refutations are so reassuring.

  473. bi says:

    473#, at first, i thought it was a taliban training camp. but quite entertaining anyway.

  474. sas says:

    ” but tell me one or two things he actually did as a state senator and US senator?”

    he helped funnel money to contract hit teams in Chicago.

    SAS

  475. Happy Camper says:

    I sense lots of hostility on the posts tonite. It maybe a sign that we are in fact entering into a depression.

    Funny that PBS is showing “Wall Street”…..”Greed is good…”

    Go vote Folksy because the last 8 yrs haven’t been enough.

    HC

  476. bi says:

    within 24 hours after the rescue bill became a law, M quickly moved to offense. since he is on average 4 pts behind in the polls, he needs to do something quick to catch it up.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93JSBFO0&show_article=1

  477. lisoosh says:

    Chi – I didn’t realize you were waiting for something from me. I’ve been jumping in and out.

    I can say that I would have like a reasoned argument refuting the notion (put forward by many more than just Schiff) that the solution isn’t just more liquidity on top of the liquidity already pumped in, but raising rates etc. to balance the market.
    You seemed to be promoting the bailout pretty aggressively, and showing considerable anger at anyone who questioned its effectiveness. You were also pretty definitive about lawlessness and other ill-effects of entering a depression state.
    However, if the incessant pumping in of cash could, as many suggest lead to rampant inflation or even some form of hyperinflation, then an equal amount of unrest and lawlessness would ensue.

    No. This issue isn’t black and white. But in choosing one option, others are put to the side. And when someone is pretty derisive of those who don’t choose the blue pill, it would be nice to know the justifications and reasoning behind it.

  478. BC Bob says:

    “Bost: There is investing and there is nihilism. Nihilism implies emotion to me. When you cease to remain objective, you can make fundamental strategic investment errors.”

    Chi,

    What a bunch of crap. I expected much more professionalism from you. Do you actually apply this nonsense to a trading strategy? I really could give 2 sheets what it implies to you. Nihilism is just form. Substance is debits/credits. Nihilism is 5-1. Substance is short from 42.41. How’s that for objectivity.

    More objectivity? Just pull up a chart.
    Fundamental errors were not made on my part. What side of the trade were/are you on?

  479. lisoosh says:

    On another note:

    My bank called (PNC) to inform me
    A. That they are solid and well rated.
    B. That they really wish I would put my money into a CD locked for at least 12 months.
    C. They would really like to sell me either a mortgage or home equity line of credit (and was I sure I truly understood how beneficial they can be to my tax status?).

    Guess the “shock” hasn’t been shocking enough.

  480. lisoosh says:

    Ket – Look upthread a little and think “1873 hysteria and blame revisited”.

    What is old becomes new very quickly.

  481. randy says:

    http://www.investorsinsight.com/blogs/thoughts_from_the_frontline/archive/2008/10/03/the-curve-in-the-road.aspx

    good stuff from John Mauldin… pretty optimistic, relatively speaking. and informative.

  482. chicagofinance says:

    A lot to respond to, but it is late…tomorrow….one note for me….the Nazis liquidated my entire family on my mother’s side except my grandfather….he died of kidney failure in 1949 a broken man….he couldn’t get a single family member out of Vilnius……as Make would tell you…the Serbs would slit my throat….sometimes I feel like the c-ckroach that survives the nuclear war….

  483. Cindy says:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/04/business/05fannie.php?page=1

    International Herald Tribune
    10-4-08
    Pressured to take on risk, Fannie hit a tipping point -Charles Duhigg

    “Everybody understood that we were buying loans that we would have previously rejected.”
    “But our mandate was to stay relevant and to serve low-income borrowers. So that’s what we did.”

    4 pages – comprehensive overview

  484. Cindy says:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/10/business/morgen11.php?page=1

    I am attempting to sort out why, during hard economic times, seemingly healthy companies are getting completely hammered – some going under -instead of being able to weather a downturn. It seems to be connected to the credit default swaps…What a mess.

    8-10-08 Herald Tribune Gretchen Morgenson

    New York “Reining in the runaway freight train otherwise known as the credit default swap market is a rising priority for regulators who oversee banks and insurers. It’s a good thing too, given the secretive nature of the swaps, the losses they are generating at some companies and the size of the market. 62T in default insurance is outstanding, with a fair value of $2T at the end of 2007.”

    “Initially, the market was intended to make hedging a corporate bond position easier. But speculators who do not hold bonds now dominate the market, using the swap instead to wager on a company’s health or the prospects of a securities portfolio. In Wall Street parlance, these investors would be characterized as trading the contracts “uncovered” or “naked.”

  485. Cindy says:

    (499) Randy – Thanks for the post. I read back through some earlier John Maudlin articles as well. 1-5-08 He said:
    “Write this down – counterparty risk in the credit default swap market will be a huge story in 2008.”

  486. Housing Purgatory says:

    Can someone tell me if the house @ 34 Tulane in lincoln Park closed?… What Price?…

    Thanks

  487. Clotpoll says:

    woody (424)-

    May I suggest Kannekt?

  488. Clotpoll says:

    Chi (453)-

    “There is investing and there is nihilism.”

    Believe me; if I were nihilistic, I’d hire someone to burn down my building.

    There is an emotional component to this for me, but it is not to win some pyrrhic victory, in which I burn with the losers.

    I want to see the criminal gubmint of the Fascist States of America and the bank and insurance racketeers get taken to friggin’ 0.

  489. Clotpoll says:

    How would you like it if a bunch of criminals was shoving your country down the toilet, while maintaining- at the same time- that the way a small segment of the public chooses to invest is really the culprit?

  490. Clotpoll says:

    tard is obviously setting up a newer, more sophisticated troll.

  491. Clotpoll says:

    bi (470)-

    All that means is that it’s time for a giant rate cut.

    Race to the bottom, pal.

  492. Cindy says:

    Clot – I know, as you stated here, I am not of much use at this time…but..that said..I would like to understand how we got here. Wasn’t there ever a chance to rein in the OTC derivatives market? (BTW I have ordered “Liar’s Poker.”)

    I’m hoping that recent moves “buy some time” perhaps to put some actual cures to our problems in place. We are always dealing with symptoms…

    Let’s imagine – just for a moment- that the cure isn’t necessarily for the entire system to topple.
    What steps do you deem absolutely necessary – today – to save the mess?

  493. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (511)-

    “Wasn’t there ever a chance to rein in the OTC derivatives market?”

    I’m certainly no expert in exotic derivatives, but from my understanding, it would’ve helped to have some sort of regs in place to prevent duplication of contracts and- as mentioned in a thread above- “naked” trading.

    As for the result of uncontrolled use of derivatives? Warren Buffett called it about 18 months ago, when he called them “financial weapons of mass destruction”. Sounds just about right.

    “What steps do you deem absolutely necessary – today – to save the mess?”

    None. It’s all over. Perhaps just time to start stockpiling water, food and ammo.

  494. Clotpoll says:

    While we’re here talking about exploding derivatives and Treasury MMs, here’s what 99 out of 100 sheeple are discussing:

    SUNRISE, Fla. — For the first time in his professional mixed martial arts career, heavyweight Kimbo Slice tasted defeat. The loss, however, did not come against the man he was originally scheduled to face.

    Ken Shamrock was unable to fight due to a cut over his left eye sustained during a workout earlier in the day. When Shamrock was deemed unfit to fight, Seth Petruzelli stepped in to replace him.

    The decision turned out to be the right one for Petruzelli, who needed just 14 seconds to put a blemish on Slice’s record. Petruzelli was scheduled to fight light heavyweight Aaron Rosa, but quickly accepted the shot at Slice.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=3626044

  495. Cindy says:

    Oh trivia: Fresno State lost to Hawaii in OT – field goal. USC trampled OSU 44 -10.

    My youngest (who moved to Portland from Eugene – divorce – starting over, 2 year old – tough several months here) just was promoted to asst. manager at a McMenamins. They are a small (55 outlets) pub/grill/theater/even some with hotels restaurant chain in OR/WA.
    Even heard of them?

    http://www.mcmenamins.com/

  496. Cindy says:

    They take over old theaters – schools and turn them into pubs. If you are ever in the Pacific NW – try them out…

  497. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (515)-

    Been to one. Very nice.

    They wouldn’t let me drink straight from the bottle, though.

  498. chicagofinance says:

    Cindy & clot: There will always be an over the counter derivatives market. It is necessary and required. In many instances, certain parties are looking to take a position and do not want that position disclosed. What should be required is that market makers (i.e. banks/security dealers) can provide evidence of hedge effectiveness. Honestly, there were certain times where I was on the other end of a trade and thinking to myself, how the #### is the bank going to hedge this? I can only guess. Maybe they offset the position on the desk with whom I was working, and re-established it with their proprietary trading guys. In the end, I assume this method is how so many of the banks ended up with such noxious crap. Technically, it should have all been syndicated and distributed.

    We were talking about this stuff as it was happening 2 and 3 years ago. For those of your that were here, I kept discussing turning off the water faucet, and the bankers knew that once it stops, it doesn’t turn back on……the final steps were when the banks all began to buy those mortgage originators in late 2006-2007. This period is when they destroyed themselves. We were here discussing it……

  499. Cindy says:

    (517) Chicago – So should there be a clearing house of sorts for the trades?

  500. Cindy says:

    “Technically, it should have all been syndicated and distributed.”
    Never mind – read your post again…

    One article I read re: Fannie/Freddie said that part of the problem was they never actually worked with borrowers.

    Interesting. Business being done with nondescript entities and we wonder how everyone lost touch with reality.

  501. Confused In NJ says:

    None. It’s all over. Perhaps just time to start stockpiling water, food and ammo.

    Sad, but probably true. C’est la vie!

  502. Cindy says:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=actl5BKglxP0&refer=home

    House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform -Lehman

  503. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (520)-

    That’s a cop out on a technicality by Phony/Fraudy. They certainly interfaced directly with borrowers, since their DesktopUnderwriter is the preapproval vehicle for virtually every conforming loan in the US.

    Phony/Fraudy was the gatekeeper and wrote the rules for conforming lending in this country. Just because they didn’t employ their own originators doesn’t mean they didn’t have customer interface.

    The problem with Phony/Fraudy was that they were deliberately set up as bankruptcy/bailout vehicles. The gubmint mandated that they keep buying pure crap until they imploded…by prior design, of course.

  504. Cindy says:

    (523) Clot – My post @502 paints a pretty ugly picture of Freddie/Fannie…the pressures and the Washington mandates.

  505. John says:

    Shore guy I guess realtors are just like the guys working the ovens in a concentration camp.

    Shore Guy Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 9:03 am
    “Why are realtors getting off blame free?? Palin was quick to blast the mortgage lenders but what about predatory realtors that KNEW their buyers could not and should not be able to afford these houses they were selling them.”

    Enough already. Really, enough. If I go into a furniture store and the couch is overpriced and the salesman pushes me to buy it anyway, if I purchase it, it is my own d@mned fault. If I go the the butcher and steak is out of my price range and the butcher agrees to allow me to pay it off over 5 weeks and I somehow think “humm great deal I can pay 1/5 the cost each week — without wondering how I will pay for food next week withthat existing food debt burden hanging over me” then it is my own d@mned fault.

    There are heroine dealers who are willing to supply anyone who wants to buy the stuff, and bar tenders willing to serve any alcoholic, and aids-infested prostitutes willing to serve anyone who wants to pay the price of admission. Anyone who takes advantage of such offers brings upon themselves whatever befalls them.

  506. John says:

    People like to say the problem is in peak years people only put down 3%. That problem was made even worse by the RE broker inflating the price by 6% compounded by the subprime mortgage brorker charging fees up to 3%. Then according to the NAR realtors though their sales skills they sell the house for more even with 6% tacking one.

    So lets say subprime sludge bought a house for 500K using a realtor, house was only worth 450K on day one due to reator getting inovolved and another 10K downpayment was lost due to slimy mortgage broker. So in a normal owner to new owner transaction with a conventional loan that 3% downpayment (15K) becomes 25K down on a 450K house which makes the mortgage 425K instead of 485K which gives the bank more breathing room and shrinks monthly mortgage and makes it easier to sell it without incurring a loss.

    Similar if you bought a used car off dealer lot or another owner. If on day two you can’t afford car you are forced to sell for big loss with dealer car but a slight loss without dealer. The resale does not get you back realtors or subprime mortgage brokers commission.

    Yea I know everything with a salesman works this way and normally people keep houses for a long time so it don’t matter, but when you pay a big commission on anything and you need to get out quick it is a financial nightmare.

  507. John says:

    PARIS (Dow Jones)–French bank Societe Generale SA (13080.FR) is “solid” and could consider acquisitions, its Chief Executive Frederic Oudea was quoted as saying by French daily Le Parisien in its Saturday edition.

    “Societe Generale is solid, is remains profitable and has a very comfortable cushion of capital,” Oudea was quoted as saying, noting that he expects the global economy to “progressively pick up from the second half of 2009.”

  508. PeaceNow says:

    A couple of months ago, “This American Life” on NPR presented an excellent explanation of CDOs and mortgages. Yesterday the topic was credit default swaps and the bailout. Both are available as podcasts.

    thislife.org

  509. Victorian says:

    Here is a plan which will save the taxpayer almost half the cost of the bail-out.

    20 of the top banks, including GS, MS and MER
    are paying out $40 Billion per year out in dividends. The lending rule of
    thumb is $1 of capital can service $10 of lending. That is $400 Billion in
    lending capacity that can get freed up. That is more than half of the
    Paulson bailout plan and it costs the taxpayer ZERO.

    But no, shareholders are the most vulnerable group in America and we cant give them the short end of the stick.

  510. Cindy says:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/98533-fannie-and-freddie-did-not-cause-this-financial-crisis?source=email

    Mark Thoma – UofO economist

    “It wasn’t the mis-prediction of the level of risk that was the biggest problem, the losses could have been absorbed, it was the (unintended) concentration of the risk through the failure of securitization that was the most problematic.”
    “Fundamentally, then, it was the agency problems and the failure of risk prediction and distribution models that allowed the bubble to inflate and then caused big problems after it popped.”

  511. newcomer says:

    Clot/ Chicago.

    I have been a silent lurker on this site for sometime now.

    I am seeing my stock and 401k plummet by 15% in last 8 months (This is when 50% of my portfolio was in money markets). I am 30 years old.

    My question is what do you suggest as possible investment in these recessionary conditions? SKF/SRS – I am not sure how they will behave as long as shorts are banned. Bonds – they did well in the last technology recession? What else?
    Your opinions are welcome.

  512. woody says:

    There are heroine dealers who are willing tosupply anyone who wants to buy the stuff, and bar tenders willing to serve any alcoholic, and aids-infested prostitutes willing to serve anyone who wants to pay the price of admission. Anyone who takes advantage of such offers brings upon themselves whatever befalls them.

  513. woody says:

    Shore Guy Says:

    There are heroine dealers who are willing to supply anyone who wants to buy the stuff, and bar tenders willing to serve any alcoholic, and aids-infested prostitutes willing to serve anyone who wants to pay the price of admission. Anyone who takes advantage of such offers brings upon themselves whatever befalls them.
    ———————————————
    Does this make it right??????????????????

    You have grouped realtors into the same class as Unethical Bartenders…common street drug-dealer criminals and AIDS infested prostitutes.

    Your argument was so disgusting to me that I lost my temper and resorted to namecalling which I do apologize for.

    I have lurked on this site for a long time and generally I get good info on here…but I can’t let this lay.

    This argument is everything that is wrong with America.

    As a health care professional I have a duty to help my patients who may be uninformed or confused with their medications. I don’t want to see my patients needlessly harmed by taking a wrong drug or just blindly following the directions of some doctor who doesn’t give a darn about them because of his 200 patient a day practice.

    As a realtor you have a duty to inform naive homebuyers (who don’t HAVE as much knowledge as you) the pitfalls of getting in too far over one’s head.

    You threw your ethics out the window to jump on the boom bandwagon and you got fat for a few years…well guess what? KARMA is a bitch

  514. woody says:

    now go back to listening to Rush Limbaugh shore guy…because I know he is your idol.

  515. lisoosh says:

    woody – Shore isn’t a realtor.

  516. Victorian says:

    BC Bob / Other Finance Gurus –

    Have you had a chance to look at #485. What is your opinion about this analysis?

  517. stan says:

    woody-

    realtors only have one duty to sell a house, nothing more nothing less. They are not advisors, they are transaction based. Assume this, realize this and understand that its a business transaction who the only person looking out for you, is you.

    Realtors do not have a hippocratic oath.

    The good ones, some of which frequent this board, are few and far between….

  518. woody says:

    lisoosh Says:
    October 5th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
    woody – Shore isn’t a realtor.
    —————————

    Well whatever… he responded to my post about realtors so excuse my assumption…I believe my point holds for any profession.

  519. woody says:

    Bottom line is Americans have turned their backs on one another to make a buck and that is sad to me.

  520. Clotpoll says:

    newcomer (531)-

    I am not an investment advisor. I just play one on TV.

    Inverse and double-inverse sector shorts are admittedly volatile and risky investments and may not be suited to your needs or investment style. Despite my enthusiastic pronouncements of love for these instruments, I’d never blindly recommend them for anyone. As Chi has noted here, I use these tools as a hedge against my primary business activity, which is RE brokerage and investment.

    Please consult your local soothsayer.

  521. Clotpoll says:

    newcomer (531)-

    Besides, you should be buying all the physical gold you can beg, steal or borrow. ;)

  522. Clotpoll says:

    Wow. A nice Sunday, and I get called an Auschwitz oven-tender and a smack dealer.

    I’ll be sure to pass this news along to my in-laws, who are both Auschwitz survivors.

  523. Clotpoll says:

    woody (539)-

    Please explain to me when this was not the case:

    “Bottom line is Americans have turned their backs on one another to make a buck and that is sad to me.”

  524. chicagofinance says:

    Cindy Says:
    October 5th, 2008 at 9:15 am
    (517) Chicago – So should there be a clearing house of sorts for the trades?

    Cindy: no…many trades are idiosyncratic and users do not want disclosure.

    Evidence of instruments and tools of key financial structures that underlie the execution of a company’s (non-financial) strategy would be dead giveaways, or draw attention and scrutiny to business critical initiatives.

    The end result would be a that the USA core competitive advantage (innovation) would be degraded over time by foreign copycats and knock-offs.

    ….dealers though should have more disclosure (i.e. FAS 157 and subsequent standards)

    DID I WRITE THIS? WHAT A BUNCH OF CORPORATE DILBERT-ESQUE GOBBLDY-GOOK!

  525. Clotpoll says:

    Woody- you have no clue what you’re talking about or who you’re talking to. Please back off and save yourself some embarrassment.

  526. Clotpoll says:

    Chi (544)-

    I think there is a point at which the need for corporate privacy- via the use of dark markets- and the need to regulate the indiscriminate and speculative use of derivatives clash.

    I don’t know how the workaround to this clash would go.

  527. woody says:

    clotpoll—

    I believe family values and ethics were a stronghold in American culture up to about the 1960’s

    I never said it wasn’t o.k. to make money, but it just seems like we live in a “throw him under the bus to get ahead” mentality

    MTV,Reality TV, the dumbing down of America…movies like Wall Street…people like Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, both Bush presidents all contribute to this: do anything to get ahead mentality and it is so poisonous and grotesque to me.

  528. woody says:

    embarrass me bud…go for it….

  529. woody says:

    Get your little script out that you always use and break it down for me

  530. Outofstater says:

    Everyone here has a different background and we are not always aware of them – we just DON’T KNOW so it would be nice to think twice before evoking images of the Holocaust or, as in earlier threads, discussing POW status. If you or a loved one wasn’t there, you can’t know so shut up already. While we all have different origins, it seems that the one thing we can agree upon is the concept of personal responsibility. So y’all play nice. Don’t make me turn this blog around!

  531. lisoosh says:

    Outofstater;

    “Are we there yet?”

  532. Outofstater says:

    Lisoosh: LOL!!

  533. still_looking says:

    Please stop feeding the TROLL…

    sl

  534. Cindy says:

    Well I’m getting the education of a lifetime – cheap!

    Chicago #544 “disclosure -FA157 and subsequent standards.”

    Clot #546 “I think there is a point at which the need for corporate privacy – via the use of dark markets – and the need to regulate the indiscriminate and speculative use of derivatives clash.”

    Is this SEC stuff? Can that be done going forward?

  535. stan says:

    You forgot to mention the new math……its killin the kids.

  536. John says:

    Boy realtors get made when you talk about ovens. Maybe it is they are worried about the afterlife.

    Funny how not a single article this weekend about where to put your money now and how to keep your money safe never mentions prepaying your mortgage. You would think if you had 100K in debt and 100K in bank and you were very worried you would lose the 100K you would just take the money and pay off debt. Guess that is unamerican.

    Since realtors are a drain in GDP and are no longer needed maybe we can put them into manufacturing jobs and increase GDP.

  537. Seneca says:

    Clot,
    >> Please explain to me when this
    >> was not the case
    >> “Bottom line is Americans have
    >> turned their backs on one another
    >> to make a buck and that is sad to me.”

    Just curious what your approach is with child-rearing as pertains to “treat thy neighbor as thyself” and the Golden rule and whatnot.

    I am sure in your lifetime, you have had the pleasure of meeting at least some people who were truly generous to their community and did good works. Are you past the point where you would encourage your kids to ‘do the right thing’ and instead tell them to get what they can while they can no matter who they have to roll over on their way?

    This is a serious question – i am not being a goof here.

  538. Cindy says:

    (556) John

    I did read one article somewhere suggesting the federal government should relax (temporarily) the rules reguarding taxing withdrawals on 401 or IRA money if it is used to pay off your home.

    It was meant to be one way to reduce the amount of outstanding debt and reward savers. The idea being you would then have the monthly funds to again begin saving for retirement..I guess.

  539. John says:

    well as long as they pay the bank back I guess retirement is there problem. but wont that just encourage folk to sell stock when stock is low causing it to go even lower.

  540. woody says:

    The best thing about people like clot and shore is when they try to “embarrass” posters they end up looking like the donkeys. Their true colors come shining right on through..and the predominant color is black. Similar to their souls and moral values

  541. Victorian says:

    BTW, is there any instance in history of inflation without a corresponding increase in wages?
    We just got notice of a salary cut at my firm last week. Well, at least that means that I wont be getting fired anytime soon. Fingers Crossed.

  542. Cindy says:

    Whoa folks…That’s about enough.
    Who do you suppose local organizations turn to when they want donations for good works? The local businessman…You are way out of line here.

    I, like many here, have children who have been taught “the golden rule.” I teach “Character Counts” in school each day. BUT – I have also taught my children that there are unscrupulous people in the world who will take advantage of them. We have all been taken down a path here and if you neglect explaining that to your children you are aren’t doing them any favors. I believe you have no call to bring anyone’s moral values into this forum. For you to pretend you know what is in a person’s heart is absurd.

  543. Sean says:

    Cindy – Whomever wrote that article is still espousing the false premise of the Housing ATM, and retiring on that ATM.

    I would suggest perhaps putting up a lighting rod on the roof with no ground before taking money out of retirement savings to pay for fictitious value based upon false premises.

  544. Shore Guy says:

    “As a realtor you have a duty to inform naive homebuyers (who don’t HAVE as much knowledge as you) the pitfalls of getting in too far over one’s head.

    You threw your ethics out the window to jump on the boom bandwagon and you got fat for a few years…well guess what? KARMA is a bitch”

    What makes you think I am a RE agent?

    It is clear that we have different opinions about the role of personal responsibility. I do not for a moment believe that any adult should rely upon salesmen of any kind to protect themselves from those salesmen. It is not up to a furniture salesman to urge a customer not to max out his or her credit card in order to purchase the dining room set the customer “MUST HAVE.”

    People who pull cash out of their homes, run up credit card debts, then lose their homes whrn the value drops and the mortgage rate restes bring upon their own ruin. As a couple who was responsible and used spare dollars to pay doen the mortgage to zero, instead of buying a big-screen TV, or pulling cash out of the home ATM, and someone who pays for vacations with cash on hand, instead of piling up debt on the credit cards, and who puts cash into the bank and investments before buying the latest greatest toys, and who has, as a result achieved a perfect credit score, we resent paying to pull the imprudent out of the abyss.

  545. Shore Guy says:

    “Bottom line is Americans have turned their backs on one another to make a buck and that is sad to me.”

    Woody, Woody, Woody. Most of the people who are in financial trouble right now are there because of their own actions. I will spare you (and everyone else here, who have already heard the story) but I grew up poor. I had nothing, including food or heat. What I have I have because I earned it and because I acted in a responsible manner.

    Sure, there are people who lost a home because of a job loss or a medical condition. That said, most of those people were living at or beyond their means, with no cushion, so when the event occurred, it simply pushed them iver the edge. There is a U.S. Bankruptcy judge up in NY named Nimfo who has spoken at length about this at length on several broadcast outlets and has formed a nationwide group to advise folks to act responsibility.

    Anyone who counts on all of their income in order to keep their head afloat in their current lifestyle is, simply, living beyond their limits. When we bought our home, we did so assuming we would only have 80% of one of our incomes. TO some we under bought. To us, we took actions to prevent ourselves from ever having to struggle to pay for the house. As a result, we paid off a 30 year mortgage in a dozen years, and could have paid it off sooner had we wanted. We are in the upper 1% of income in our town and we are in a median-priced-home for the town.

    Woody, if there are others who chose to do things differently, so be it; however, it is neither my responsibility nor my place to protect them from or bail them out of their own bad decisions.

    Besides, I suspect that those inclined to make imprudent spending decisions are not inclined to take unsolicited advice from the likes of me.

  546. Shore Guy says:

    “The best thing about people like clot and shore is when they try to “embarrass” posters they end up looking like the donkeys. Their true colors come shining right on through..and the predominant color is black. Similar to their souls and moral values”

    Woody,

    I suspect you are projecting things onto us. I for one have never taken a shot at anyone else here, nor have I ever tried to embarass anyone here. Some do a good enough job embarassing themselves without any help.

    Although my favorite sport coats are black cashmire, and I will freely own up to enjoying wearing them, my predominant color tend to be grey.

    Unless you happen to be Christ reborn, I suspect you lack any authority to judge my soul. As for my values, clearly we see the world through different lenses.

    One thing comes to mind Woody. As people come into your shop and purchase cigaretts, gum, batteries, makeup, condoms, and various products, I suspect you do not advise the customers to save their money and buy U.S. Savings Bonds, silver coins, etc. Whether someone really needs to buy the extra pair of hair pins, or that second hair drier likely never crosses your mind.

  547. Shore Guy says:

    “woody Says:
    October 5th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
    embarrass me bud…go for it….”

    I suspect neither Clot nor I could do a better job of it than you have already done.

    If you wish to have a constructive engagement with me, I am all for it. If not, I am not going to waste either your time or mine in further discourse. I wish you well.

  548. Shore Guy says:

    Lisoosh,

    BTW, thank you.

  549. woody says:

    Shore,

    Good luck in life. I hope one day you don’t need help in a tough time. But since it seems you never make mistakes it shouldn’t be a problem. I like my lenses better.

  550. Barbara says:

    Lotta love in here……..lotta love….

  551. alia says:

    these *are* tough times.

    i have found shore to be an engaging and passionate contributor to this forum. if he found himself in a position where he was in need of assistance and i could help, i would be glad to. and i’m a commie pinko bleeding heart liberal who lived on and off welfare and gov’t handouts during my formative years. (won’t even get started on dear husband, who is *gasp* a forreigner)

  552. Shore Guy says:

    Want’a whole lotta love. Want’a whole lotta love. Want’a whole lotta love.

    Way down, woman. You need… love.

  553. alia says:

    i’ve been moderated. i feel like i’m in the special sekrit club now. :)

  554. Shore Guy says:

    alia,

    Those were kind words. The thing of it is, I am not a cold-hearted guy. Mrs Shore and I donate hundreds of hours and 10s of thousands of dollars to charity each year, in addition to many thousandsof inkind contributions. We have helped resettle refuges, and provided food to the hungry.

    That said, I do, in fact, resent the thousands and thousands of people who acted profoundly irresponsibly this past decade and who now want to saddle the nation with huge amounts of extra debt (as if the current 9+ trillion is not already enough) to bail them out.

    I am all for compassion but, as a nation, we need to encourage prudent behavior and savings. Perhaps this means some imprudent actors must get burned. Whilst that may be sad, it may also be both necessary and good for the longterm betterment of society.

  555. Shore Guy says:

    alia,

    The initiation ritual is figuring out what put you in moderation.

  556. renter says:

    Shore–

    I think the key to your story is the hard times. I saw this in my father who wants “No one ever gave me a d^mn thing” written on his tomb stone. He worked so hard to have the security he never had as a child. I think that those of us who never experienced this and grew up secure missed a lesson. Our parents paid our college tuition etc. Perhaps they did us something of a disservice by handing us too much leading to a sense of entitlement.

    (I still believe that it makes no sense to lend money to people who can’t pay it back making the lenders just as guilty. )

  557. kloxqugogl says:

    But i said, but youre still maintained her ass and more of ann hathaway nude a verysensuous.

  558. renter says:

    575
    “Perhaps this means some imprudent actors must get burned.”

    There is nothing extreme about this position. I firmly agree with this and I am a liberal. It is a moral hazard to bail people out.

  559. enjoy says:

    #452

    You seems to be like most of American where your world surrounds your house. You know how much Indians suffered under Mogul and then British rule ? please go through unbiased history books, eyebrow raising, really.

  560. NJGator says:

    Checking in from the Pacific here. Who he heck is this Woody guy? We’ve had more pleasant political discussions.

    Count me as another lefty who would be glad to help Shore out.

  561. Pat says:

    What’s Woody’s point, anyway?

    Shore, didn’t you once stand up for this here tough chick, you softie, you?

    Woody, Shore’s a well-intentioned citizen.

    We’re all learning as we go, dude.

  562. still_looking says:

    please don’t feed the TROLL….please.

    The TROLL is eating enough crow.

    sl

  563. Pat says:

    SL, remember when make was a troll? I can still remember his conversion to the dark side. It’s like the day my only child walked.

  564. Orion says:

    Belmar condos auction report:

    I went to an auction yesterday and all
    11 condos sold in one hour.
    The place was packed with people.
    Lots of bidding.
    Price range $325K to $400K.

  565. Victorian says:

    Tonight’s 60 minutes is a gem. Much recommended.

  566. Essex says:

    580….Indians have a homeland India. Right?

  567. Essex says:

    Anyway once you can say that the systematic extermination of a people (6 million plus at last count) was carried out by a government….maybe I will believe your arguments. in the meantime…..piss off. Thanks!

  568. Laughing all the way says:

    anyone know what’s up with the dollar? will this keep up? or tank on black wednesday?

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avC.1.PvSqHg&refer=worldwide

  569. Shore Guy says:

    Gator/Stu

    Shouldn’t you be gazing at the ocean with a drink in your hands right now?

  570. bairen says:

    #533 Woody

    As a realtor you have a duty to inform naive homebuyers (who don’t HAVE as much knowledge as you) the pitfalls of getting in too far over one’s head.

    When I was doing inside sales for mortgage loans in Australia, I was not allowed to give advice or state an opinion. I could only tell the customers what the monthly payments and fees were and relay to them from the credit officers how much they could borrow. Many times I wanted to scream at them WTF are you thinking? Why are you borrowing 30k against your house for a vacation when you make 70k a year.

    In Australia if you were not licensed and you made any comment that could be interpreted as financial advice you and your firm were open for a lawsuit if/when your “advice” soured.

    We were allowed to say “perhaps you should speak with your financial advisor or accountant” so I said that early and often.

    Maybe the rules are the same over here, but I doubt it since virtually every re agent I’ve met brings up “appreciation” and tax advantages.

  571. Cindy says:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/financial-crisis-pulls-fasb-back/story.aspx?guid=%7bDBEB5F6B-D12C-4459-AFF9-4A1736FAB146%7d&dist=msr_2&print=true&dist=printMidSection

    Financial crisis pulls FASB back into the political maelstrom – Market Watch -Matt Andrejczak

    I’ve been learning a few new things.

    FASB is “a designated private sector organization in the U.S. that establishes financial accounting and reporting standards.”

    “Now, critics are arguing FASB is getting in the way of putting the global credit markets back on surer footing. They’d like to see changes to Statement 157 – and soon. So far, FASB and the SEC have issued interpretive guidelines to help banks better understand the rule as they close their books for the just-ended quarter.”

    But the SEC and FASB have stopped short of suspending fair-market accounting treatment.

    In a letter Thursday, Robert Denham, chairman of the Financial Accounting Board, urged House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass., to let any changes to fair-value accounting be handled through FASB’s public rulemaking process – not historic legislation driven by special interests.

    FASB acts to solicit a wide-range of opinions before it adopts a new standard. Its process includes public meetings, comment letters, roundtables, and field visits.

    “We believe that any legislative effort to overturn a FASB standard will greatly undermine investor confidence,” Denham wrote. “We believe that once Congress starts sending accounting standards through its political process, the integrity of U.S. accounting standard setting and the credibility of U.S. financial reporting will be dangerously compromised.”

  572. t c m says:

    #591 –

    ditto for me when i was working in branch banking. i was not allowed to discourage anyone from borrowing money – it was against the law. it had to do with discrimination. ( i don’t remember which act it would be violating) of course, i was allowed to encourage people to take out lines of credit on their homes for whatever reason.

  573. Cindy says:

    FASB = Financial Accounting Standards Board

  574. Victorian says:

    Seriously, if tonight’s 60 minutes does not piss JoeSixPack off, i don’t know what will.

    Segement 1 – Credit Default Swaps. They had Jim Grant on, who completely put the blame on Wall St. They had a Wall St fat cat who sat smiling when the interviewer was grilling him.

    Segment 2 – How Busch Co f%^cked up the capture of Osama Bin Laden in Tora Bora.

    Finally, Andy Rooney mystified by the bail-out.

  575. kettle1 says:

    Global Financial Chaos: Act 2

    The bailout has passed the IB masters of the universe have been soundly beaten by Mr market and are currently scurrying for cover. The next Act will now be performed in the european union.
    European banks are leveraged to higher level than most US banks. EU laws prevent american style bailouts of european banks. The EU has unfortunately never planed for a financial crisis of the scale that we are currently witnessing and as such have no rules or regulations in place that allows the Union to address national bank issues amongst its individual members.
    With global investors becoming ever more nervous and seeing the inability or the EU to attempt (no matter how ineffectual) an organized response to the inherent banking instabilities similar to the US treasuries, the dollar will continue to strengthen through the winter as the euro drops.
    Greece and Ireland’s 100% backing of all bank deposits is nothing more then disaster theater. Neither country can actually back even a significant portion of their respective deposits if there is any sort of bank run.
    Besides a delay of the inevitable, the actions by Greece and Ireland are forcing the financially stronger members of the Union ( France and Germany) to face the subsidization of other insolvent members.
    As these financial pressures increase, they are going to drive the next act that is just beginning to unfold in the great financial unraveling of the 21st century.

  576. chicagofinance says:

    newcomer Says:
    October 5th, 2008 at 11:31 am
    Clot/ Chicago.
    I am seeing my stock and 401k plummet by 15% in last 8 months (This is when 50% of my portfolio was in money markets). I am 30 years old.
    Your opinions are welcome.

    newcomer: I cannot answer this question in this forum. I apologize. Liability issue.

  577. kettle1 says:

    Dynamic Maps of Nonprime Mortgage Conditions in the United States

    http://www.newyorkfed.org/mortgagemaps/

  578. Laughing all the way says:

    I am seeing my stock and 401k plummet by 15% in last 8 months (This is when 50% of my portfolio was in money markets). I am 30 years old.

    not a financial advisor … all disclaimers … you’re 30. what’s the big deal? You have another 30 years to turn it around. and if you don’t already have one … hire a financial advisor. their job is to study this stuff round-the-clock.

    and didn’t you see that wu-tang skit on dave chappelle’s show? You gots to diversify your bonds!

  579. chicagofinance says:

    BC Bob Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
    Chi, What a bunch of crap. I expected much more professionalism from you. Nihilism is 5-1. Substance is short from 42.41. How’s that for objectivity. More objectivity? Just pull up a chart. Fundamental errors were not made on my part. What side of the trade were/are you on?????

    Bost: Not really sure what you are saying, other than you think I need colostomy, and the refuse should be shunted off into my frontal lobe.

  580. Pat says:

    http://www.hcdi.com/housing_summit/Agenda.pdf

    I wonder if anybody would notice me slink in.

  581. chicagofinance says:

    Cindy Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
    Hey Chicago – Maybe you could help me with this… So the speculators do these swaps – then the company goes down a bit in troubled times and a new cost to them kicks in causing them more financial problems…then they fail to meet their debt agreement..something like that –
    Where are the speculators making their money? On the increase once they fall that percentage behind?

    Think of it like a thermometer where BOILING = BANKRUPT. You buy when things are 50 degrees and you make money as things get hotter (if that is your position)….it doesn’t have to boil to make money and there is a measurable difference between 50, 80 and 110…make sense?

  582. woody says:

    At the heart of the matter is the way agents are paid — traditionally through a commission, paid by the seller, of 5% or 6% of the home’s sales price. Nudging buyers toward subprime loans, or keeping mum about the risks, means more sales go through. Also, the low teaser rate on a subprime loan allows the buyer to borrow more, helping to boost sales prices and commissions. “You can’t lie,” Phillips said of the agents. “You cannot intentionally mislead somebody. But you work for the seller.”

    “It is my experience that real estate agents have been pushing people to buy more expensive homes than they were initially qualified to buy under 30-year, fixed-rate [loan]s,” said Smith of the National Fair Housing Alliance.

    She recalled a young Washington, D.C., couple that had pre-qualified for a fixed-rate loan no larger than $310,000. “Their agent kept pressing them to look at $400,000-plus properties because he could get the same payment, or even lower payment, for them for a more expensive home,” she said. How? By encouraging them to get a “2/28” subprime, 30-year loan that started with a low rate which would reset two years later, and then again in each of the 28 subsequent years. The borrowers qualify for such a loan based on their ability to make the initial, low payments, even if they cannot afford the higher payments likely to come later. By selling the more expensive home, the agent earns a larger commission, she noted.

    “Of course, he used the standard line of agents and loan offices: ‘You can always refinance in two years,'” she said. “He never told them their payment would jump 30% in month 25, or how hard it may be to refinance…. And in two years, the borrower blames the lender for their fix, not the agent who steered them to a higher priced home and a 2/28 loan.”

    Just one of many examples…now are the borrowers to blame? yes.

    But I feel realtors did deceive and manipulate many naive buyers to gain a buck.

  583. Cindy says:

    (602) Chicago – Thanks – That totally makes sense to me.

    Checking on the FASB: Glad to read they are part of the private sector. The story reads like if they had held their ground in the 90’s re: expensing the stock options on their books, we might have averted an Enron/Worldcom. cover-up.

    Also happy to hear they actually have a process in place to consider “a wide range of options” before changing board policy.

  584. woody says:

    The realtors’ code of ethics, he said, does require a commitment to fair-housing laws and “transparency,” or openness about all aspects of the sale’s transaction. That leaves room for the realtor to raise a red flag over a hazardous loan, he said. “If a deal is not sustainable — meaning, if a consumer cannot afford the transaction — they should not be proceeding with it,” he noted.

    You guys may want to brush up on your code of ethics

  585. chicagofinance says:

    Cindy Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
    So are the swaps causing some equities to go down unnecessarily? I know you all say it isn’t the short-selling.

    C: not directly…..althought there a different investment return profiles for the swaps and stocks, and the markets for these securities are different, the fundamental information about the company is from the same source. While many factors may influence the swaps market, those related to the company would similarly influence how someone would evaluate the market value of the equity (i.e. stock).

  586. woody says:

    “Realtors care about only one thing — making the sale,” added Kenneth Thomas, a lecturer on finance at Wharton, adding that if the buyer needs a subprime loan for the deal to go through, the agent is likely to keep silent about the hazards.

  587. woody says:

    My original point was, if you go back and look at it, that realtors are also to blame in this mess…that is all.

    Somehow it got into HIV prostitutes and heroin dealers and namecalling.

    I apologize for the namecalling and my “bleeding heart”, but the bottom line is I feel the real estate industry in general could have steered us away from this fiasco with just a little more ethical, non-greedy behavior. Shame on the buyers…shame on the lenders and shame on the realtors.

  588. woody says:

    And why am I on here posting you may ask???

    Because I hope next time…in your next transaction…you can use the knowledge you have to HELP a naive buyer.

    It’s all about knowledge and let’s face it…say all you want most buyers don’t have the knowledge…But you do.

  589. chicagofinance says:

    lisoosh Says:
    October 4th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
    Chi – I didn’t realize you were waiting for something from me. I’ve been jumping in and out. I can say that I would have like a reasoned argument refuting the notion (put forward by many more than just Schiff) that the solution isn’t just more liquidity on top of the liquidity already pumped in, but raising rates etc. to balance the market.
    You seemed to be promoting the bailout pretty aggressively, and showing considerable anger at anyone who questioned its effectiveness. You were also pretty definitive about lawlessness and other ill-effects of entering a depression state.
    However, if the incessant pumping in of cash could, as many suggest lead to rampant inflation or even some form of hyperinflation, then an equal amount of unrest and lawlessness would ensue.

    l: thanks. I think I have not done an effective job of stating my position. The bailout is not a solution. I do not expect it to solve the fundamental driver of our financial sector problems (i.e. falling real estate prices). However, since Lehman was allowed to go bankrupt, the credit markets (note, not the stock markets) have been in disarray. I want to thank Stu for linking to the Roubinator, because he provides all the examples necessary. The imagery is cardiac arrest and we need defibrillator. Look the patient is still overweight, high cholesterol, smokes and has a family history, but that is not the point. You just don’t want death….

    Remember: credit markets DO NOT EQUAL stock market

    here is some of Stu’s Roubinator stuff….

    A run on the short term liabilities of the corporate sector is also underway as the commercial paper market has effectively shut down with little trading and no issuance or rollover of such debt while corporations have no access to long or short term credit markets and they are therefore facing massive rollover problems (over $500 billion of rollover of maturing debts in the next 12 months). Indeed, the market for commercial paper plummeted $94.9 billion to $1.6 trillion for the week ended Oct. 1 (and down over $200 billion in the last three weeks).

    but now even non-financial corporations are also experiencing a severe roll-off in the CP market. Discount rates for investment-grade non-financial commercial paper spiked to 599bp for 60 day maturities. More companies are borrowing against or tapping their revolving credit lines. This is largely due to the dislocation caused in the money markets by the failure of Lehman and the subsequent withdrawals from money market funds, which are some of the biggest providers of liquidity in the short term funding/commercial paper. Even the largest corporations are at severe stress: AT&T last week was forced to rely on overnight funding for its treasury operations, as lenders were unwilling to provide more long term financing due to fears in money market funds over investor redemption.

    Almost 100 U.S. corporate treasurers gathered for an emergency conference call yesterday to warn each other that banks are using any excuse to charge more to renew lines of credit. “Capital is fleeing to safety,” said Edward E. Liebert, treasurer of Rohm & Haas Co., who took part in the 90-minute call organized by the National Association of Corporate Treasurers. `

    Treasurers are struggling to keep credit lines open so they can pay employees, fund pension benefits and purchase raw materials. “The banks are really starting to play hardball,” said Jeff Wallace, managing partner at Greenwich Treasury Advisors, a financial consultant in Boulder, Colorado. “They don’t want to give out any more money to people because they don’t have enough capital”. Banks are demanding renegotiation of interest charges or lending terms when “routine” amendments are requested on lines of credit, said Thomas C. Deas Jr., treasurer of Philadelphia- based FMC Corp. and an association board member.

  590. chicagofinance says:

    Just realize that the money market issue is never there. While the above items may just seem like a some kind of Chinese Fire Drill, in reality the problem is three fold. Extra cost to do business the comes RIGHT OFF the profit line of the company. Focus of employees on day-to-day emergency operations instead of strategic planning. Disruption of implementing major strategic initiatives due to cash impingement and overhang.

  591. Clotpoll says:

    Seneca (557)-

    The modus operandi of American business has no influence on my own personal business practices or what I teach my children, which is, frankly, none of your business. I don’t see anyone else here being questioned about such things, and I do see many offer up- unsolicited- all the grand things they do for their nearest and dearest. Most of what I read makes me want to puke.

    Anyone who follows what I post here can make whatever conclusions and judgments they want about me. If I answer any questions to this end at all, it is the beginning of a game I cannot win. Any answer I give will only be construed as either self-serving self-righteousness or as a confirmation that I am evil incarnate.

  592. Clotpoll says:

    John (556)-

    “Boy realtors get made when you talk about ovens.”

    When I take my Realtor hat off, you might find I get kinda pissed at you, knowing you shilled for a criminal bailout of Wall St…for no better reason that it served your purposes well.

    Please temper your smack talk with at least the acknowledgment that where you sit dictates where you stand, in its entirety.

    For what it’s worth, I now consider anything you post here- other than the sophomoric stuff that makes me laugh- as utter noise.

  593. Victorian says:

    Clot –
    Are you on the Morgan call? Good stuff so far.
    BTW, looks like Asia is giving a thumbs down to Paulson.

  594. Clotpoll says:

    woody (561)-

    Your calling me a “black soul” is only confirmation that I’m onto something. I won’t engage you, because: a) I’m too tired; b) you don’t need me to embarrass you…you’re doing a good job on your own; and c) I’m on Mike Morgan’s conference call right now.

    I’ve had people say stuff like this to me- verbatim- three times in the past two years. Each time, a wonderful, and positive, event came to pass, so I’m just gonna say thank you.

  595. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (563)-

    “For you to pretend you know what is in a person’s heart is absurd.”

    Cindy, thanks. I’m utterly amazed at how many people- who don’t even know what I look like- seem to know what’s inside me from a bunch of blog posts.

  596. Clotpoll says:

    vic (614)-

    Good stuff. I think Morgan needs a good night’s sleep, though.

    Paulson’s gonna be seeing a lot of thumbs down now. Asia’s no surprise. Funny, Morgan said he thinks Asia’s behaving better right now than he expected.

    Maybe it’ll be different in the AM when we all wake up. I’ll be locked & loaded by at least 5:30.

  597. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy-

    Didn’t Dubya look into Putin’s eyes, and see the goodness in his soul? A stone cold, ghost-faced, KGB killa?

    Holy f&*^ing shit.

  598. Cindy says:

    Dubya – Humph..

    Where’s Winston Churchill when you need him?

  599. Essex says:

    618…What happens in Kennebunkport stays in ……

  600. Cindy says:

    (595) Vic – Agreed – Excellent 60 minutes segment on the swaps. Very concise. Thanks for the heads up.

  601. Cindy says:

    Vic – re: 60 min. -If I heard correctly, the guy with his mouth hanging open was CEO Rbt. Pickle from ISDA – International Swap and Derivatives Association. By calling these “swaps” they avoided falling under the scrutiny of insurance regulations.

  602. Cindy says:

    Well, it has been a very informative weekend. (Thanks again everyone.) Off to the real world tomorrow -have a great week –

  603. lisoosh says:

    # Pat Says:

    “SL, remember when make was a troll? I can still remember his conversion to the dark side. It’s like the day my only child walked.”

    Hey. I can remember when Clot was calling us all bitter renter wannabes.

    Those were the days. I miss Patient. And whatever happened to Metroplexual?

    I’ve been on this blog too long.

    Damn. Signed up for the Morgan thing and forgot about it.

  604. Pat says:

    lisoosh – I believe Clot’s term was LOD. We were dorks in cahoots.

    Anyway, here’s the 60 min link referenced above:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/05/60minutes/main4502454.shtml

  605. Pat says:

    Who’s the sniper commenter with the bullseye on Fannie and Freddie?

  606. stu says:

    greetings from the pacific. i see asian markets are all 5 percent off or more. not good at all. i guess we will have to see where libor opens.

    in other news hurricane norbert may make our cruise rockier than wall street. tomorrow should be fun in cabo as i watch my srs rocket. the gator and the rye guy are having a ball. good luck to all and i look forward to tomorrows dialogue.

    where is bi?

  607. still_looking says:

    Pat, I know that feeling well! I just can’t see feeding trolls that don’t learn.

    lis, OMIGOD… I forgot about LOD “league of dorks” — it seems like a century ago.

    sl

  608. still_looking says:

    lis,

    Damn, I missed the Morgan thing!

    Clot, will he have a transcript or link to the call?

    sl

  609. galgon says:

    Dollar way up against the Euro. Back to August 2007 levels. Maybe I can finally take that European trip I have been putting off.

    Germany Guarantees all banking deposits.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081005/bs_nm/us_hyporealestate_6

    Dow Futures off 240 points this morning.

    DJIA 9K Today?

  610. still_looking says:

    galg,

    thanks for the cheerful news…

    …I’m going back to bed… wake me up when the recession is over..

    sl

  611. BC Bob says:

    “The bailout has passed the IB masters of the universe have been soundly beaten by Mr market and are currently scurrying for cover”

    kettle,

    The dog and pony show has recived an old fashioned Bronx salute from world’s investors. No surprise though.

  612. BC Bob says:

    “But I feel realtors did deceive and manipulate many naive buyers to gain a buck.”

    Fantastic. Move on. The world is crumbling from sea to sea. Who else was deceived?

  613. Pat says:

    US bailout fails to keep markets free of chaos

    http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=4646813&fSectionId=552&fSetId=662

    “Markets were looking ahead to a meeting on Friday of finance chiefs from the Group of Seven rich nations, waiting for any announcements on coordinated action such as liquidity injections or interest rate cuts, dealers said.

    A speech Tuesday by US Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke would also be closely watched for any clues on the possibility of a US interest rate cut.

    The Bank of England was expected to cut British borrowing costs by at least a quarter of a percentage point when it meets on Thursday. “

  614. BC Bob says:

    Vic [485],

    Oh damn out of luck, Hammerin Hank let them break the buck. This is the major problem. Do you think Hank is playing Monday morning quarterback, regarding his decision to let LEH go. The were so focused on CDS, they dropped the ball.

    Money funds are the line in the sand for the ultra cautious. Pension plans are huge buyers of short term corp debt, mm’s. Well, when Hank let LEH go he precipitated the 2008 version of an old fashioned bank run.

    Oh fcuk, Hank should not have allowed them to break the buck.

    By the way, didn’t hear any of our leaders in DC make reference to this. I guess they were too busy adding 400 pages of pork to the original 3 page bailout document?

  615. BC Bob says:

    “It’s all about knowledge and let’s face it…say all you want most buyers don’t have the knowledge…But you do.”

    Woody Harrelson,

    Tell then to get off their arses, turn off Oprah/Access Hollywood and at least try to take control of their lives. At least try?

  616. BC Bob says:

    “Markets were looking ahead to a meeting on Friday of finance chiefs from the Group of Seven rich nations”

    Pat,

    Picture 7 Humpty Dumpties teetering on that great Wall on that Street. Did anybody ever wonder why Wall Street was placed between a river and a cemetery?

  617. Pat says:

    I see it more like watching the seven dwarfs whistling down into the mine as the audience hears the rumble.

  618. JF says:

    Lisoosh,

    No open debate? Really? I just offered you some and like Palin you refused to respond directly. Instead you made up an answer to the question in your head.

    No terrorism pre-1948? Really? So Pearl Harbour in your opinion wasn’t in many ways a terroristic attack? Cross border attacks from Mexico early in the States history? Many acts of violence against civilians and homes during the Civil War? Kamikaze pilots were suicide bombers, or didn’t you know that?
    Terrorism – or controlling a population with fear has been a tactic used since time immemorial.

    Israel doing the US’s dirty work in the region and putting itself on the front lines isn’t in Americans interest? Really?
    How about Israel dumps the US and America has to send out tens of thousands of troops to deal with assorted issues it has across the region? Are you going to volunteer for it.

    You want to debate? I am a left wing Israeli. I would be more than happy for Israel to NOT be an issue at all in this election. I would prefer it even more for it not to be the pet project of a bunch of Right Wing American nuts using it for their own ends. I don’t really want my familiy members dying for someone elses war.

    When you blame Israel, a foreign sovereign nation 6,000 miles away for domestic issues you are doing nothing more than looking for a scapegoat due to your own paranioa, fear and lack of education. See the previous post where it was discussed who would be the scapegoated ethnicity during bad economic time. BC Bob suggested the Arabs or Mexicans. I said it would be the Jews because it always is – anti-Semitism is a lazy disease. You talk Israel and AIPAC but you are just an anti-Semite who doesn’t have the guts to be honest about it.

    (Open Debate) In the mainstream media, there is definitely no open debate. As you just so nicely illustrated in your response, people who merely disagree on the issues are labeled “anti-semites”, even though the issue is solely one of US foreign policy and it’s possible effects on US national security. For the record, I am not a Palin supporter.

    (Pre 1948 Terrorism). You are the one who has skirted the issue. Terrorism by middle eastern groups such as Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hamas were never an American problem prior to the creation of Israel in 1948.

    (Israel doing US dirty work), Are you kidding? The US government is a puppet of the Israel lobby and Mr. David Steiner (former head of the AIPAC) was nice enough to boast about it back in 1992 and soon resigned:

    David Steiner (AIPAC)
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    David Steiner was President of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), and later was a New Jersey real-estate developer.

    [edit] Controversy and resignation from AIPAC
    He resigned his AIPAC Presidency in November 1992 after Haim Katz, a New York real estate developer, secretly recorded a telephone conversation with him and released it to the Washington Times.[1] Steiner told Katz he had significant influence over American foreign policy and the selection of US political leaders.

    Among the things Steiner told Katz:

    “I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they’re looking for the Jewish votes, and I’ll tell him whatever he wants to hear. . . Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don’t even know about. . . I have friends on the Clinton campaign, close associates. . . . I’ve known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors Association. I know him on a personal basis. . . One of my friends is Hillary Clinton’s scheduler, one of my officer’s daughters works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absence to work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in the campaign, in the headquarters, in Little Rock, and they’re all going to get big jobs. . . I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy advisers. . . Steve Spiegel. . . We have Bill Clinton’s ear. I talked to Bill Clinton. He’s going to be very good for us. . . A girl who worked for me at AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I mean we have those relationships. . . Susan Thomases, who’s in there, worked with me on the Bradley campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She’s in there with the family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them. I mean, I have people like that all over the country. . . He’s said he’s going to help us. He’s got something in his heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends. . . Clinton is the best guy for us. . . We’re just negotiating. We’re more interested right now in the secretary of state and the secretary of National Security Agency. . . I’ve got a list. But I really can’t go through it. I’m not allowed to talk about it. . . We’ll have access.[2]

    After the transcript of the recording was made public, Steiner and AIPAC claimed he had exaggerated. “In an effort to encourage and impress what I thought was a potential political activist calling on the telephone,” Steiner said, “I made statements which went beyond over-zealousness and exaggeration and were simply and totally untrue. I apologize to Governor Clinton, Chief of Staff Baker, and AIPAC for these actions.”

    Steiner was replaced as President of AIPAC by Steve Grossman.

    In closing, Israel is NOT an issue in this election. All four candidates for Pres./VP are 100% in favor of our current foreign policy, no questions asked. My fear is my children and grandchildren living in fear because of a blind foreign policy that has brought agression to American soil.

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