Put away the champagne, for now.

From the WSJ (Hat Tip ChiFi):

Home Prices: There’s No Quick Recovery Ahead

So, is our long national nightmare over? Has the housing market finally hit bottom?

There has been some muted — albeit exhausted — cheering from homeowners in recent weeks. But before we break out the champagne, look out for further potential problems just down the road.

Prices may — may — be nearing the bottom in many markets. But beyond the headlines, there are plenty of reasons to stay cautious. There may even be fresh dangers just ahead.

And even if prices have stopped falling, it may be years before they start rising sharply again.

First, late spring is traditionally the strongest season in the real-estate market.

And it’s hardly a surprise the market saw some green shoots this time around. It’s enjoying not one, but two, gigantic taxpayer subsidies — an $8,000 refundable tax credit, or gift, for first-time buyers, as well as those cheap mortgage rates. The Federal Reserve has been spending billions of dollars to keep interest rates down.

Both are only short-term fixes. Any sustained economic upturn would be expected to send long-term mortgage rates rising again, dousing the real-estate market with fresh cold water.

The picture on inventories isn’t as good as it sounds, either. A lot of unsold homes have simply been put up for rent instead, especially in the most difficult markets like Miami. The result? A glut of empty rentals as well.

New waves of foreclosures and distressed sales may be coming, too. In states such as California, it can take many months for delinquencies to turn to foreclosures, which means last winter’s bad news may still be coming down the pike. Meanwhile, vast tranches of teaser-rate mortgages are due to reset later this year and in 2010.

As for the economy: Both unemployment and household debt levels remain at extremely high levels by the standards of postwar history. Either is bad news for housing. The combination is very bad.

Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, argued in a recent paper that the fundamentals still aren’t great. It still remains cheaper to rent than to own in many markets, he says.

The biggest bubbles usually produce the deepest busts. And the 2002-2006 bubble was a doozy. The bad news may have ended after three terrible years, but maybe not. Japanese housing prices still haven’t recovered from the late 1980s bubble. Western U.S. markets took six or seven years to recover after the last big bubble burst there in the early 1990s.

Yes, there are some hopeful signs, but don’t let them fool you into thinking it’s all clear. It might not be. As ever, anyone making a major financial decision needs to think more about his or her own situation than what “the market” is doing. A real-estate purchase needs to make sense on its own terms. And measure it on cash flow today, not the hope for capital gains tomorrow. When you factor in all the costs, is the purchase cheaper than renting?

If you get a cheap mortgage and you are aggressive on price, you may get a bargain. That’s especially true if the owner has to sell. Foreclosures and other distressed sales are selling for about 20% below the rest of the market. There are opportunities out there. But you can afford to take your time to shop around.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Bubble, National Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

236 Responses to Put away the champagne, for now.

  1. grim says:

    From USA Today:

    Poll: 57% don’t see stimulus working

    Six months after President Obama launched a $787 billion plan to right the nation’s economy, a majority of Americans think the avalanche of new federal aid has cost too much and done too little to end the recession.

    A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll found 57% of adults say the stimulus package is having no impact on the economy or making it worse. Even more —60% — doubt that the stimulus plan will help the economy in the years ahead, and only 18% say it has done anything to help improve their personal situation.

    That skepticism underscores the challenge Obama faces in trying to convince the public that the stimulus has helped turn the economy around. It also could complicate the administration’s plans to overhaul the nation’s health care system.

  2. grim says:

    From the NY Times:

    Where Cozy Is the New Cool

    FOR all of those homeowners who suffered serious bouts of big-house envy in the boom years, now is your opportunity to gloat.

    In today’s housing market, small and old has it all over big and new.

    Modest-size houses — say, 2,500 square feet or under — are about the only ones that are selling in many areas of Connecticut, even the most affluent. They are going far more quickly than larger, more expensive properties, and those in very good condition and priced competitively are even setting off the occasional bidding war.

    Over all, sales and prices of single-family homes continued to decline in markets throughout Connecticut during the first half of the year.

    Yet in general, “the economics support the idea that the smaller, older houses are doing better,” said John Clapp, a professor of finance and real estate at the University of Connecticut.

  3. grim says:

    From the Courier News:

    Embattled Plainfield apartment firm faces financial crisis

    More than half of the city properties managed by Plainfield’s largest apartment rental firm suddenly are either tied up in bankruptcy proceedings or up for sale, leaving company and municipal officials alike bracing for potential outcomes of a continuing housing saga.

    Chapter 11 bankruptcy documents were filed Aug. 7 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court, Newark, in connection with nine city apartment entities managed by Connolly Properties Inc. Three days later, six of the company’s 20 other such entities were put on the market. The company, founded in 1995 by president and CEO David Connolly and currently managing more than 60 properties in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, recently was the subject of separate Courier News and municipal investigations into tenant complaints of substandard living conditions.

    Several companies owning 13 different Connolly Properties-managed apartment entities in Plainfield and East Orange have filed for bankruptcy during the past three weeks. Prior to the respective filing dates, the two companies holding the loans on those 13 entities — Spencer Savings Bank in Plainfield and the Federal National Mortgage Association, or Fannie Mae, in East Orange — filed foreclosure motions against all of them, demanding about $34 million to settle the combined balances of the loans. The apartment buildings and complexes in question include a total of 552 units — 290 in Plainfield and 272 in East Orange.

    Documents included in the bankruptcy filings revealed a variety of other unpaid debts and financial woes. According to the filings, more than $450,000 is owed to Hess Co. for fuel service to the properties, with about $117,000 owed to PSE&G for utilities. Connolly Properties bank records indicated that a May 1 mortgage payment of $114,654 to Spencer Savings Bank overdrew the company’s checking account by $65,281, and no subsequent mortgage payments appeared in records running through July 21.

  4. grim says:

    From the Courier News:

    Recession hasn’t hurt education jobs in Central Jersey

    The number of school jobs is growing, and those jobs come with consistent increases in salary, according to new numbers released by the state.

    Total salaries for administrators, teachers and professional staff members rose 3.9 percent to $9.6 billion last year, according to new state data. Meanwhile, educators’ head count rose to 143,733, up 1,283.

    The increases come even as the number of private sector positions in New Jersey has been virtually frozen over 10 years and the state, along with the nation, remains mired in a recession.

    Taxpayers may not be enthusiastic about the continued growth in education, one expert warned.

    “You’re not seeing many raises in most jobs that people have, and that causes resentment,” said Michael Riccards, executive director of the Hall Institute, a think tank that specializes in state issues. “Then you couple that with tenure and pretty generous health benefits that they get.”

  5. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Brace for a Wave of Foreclosures, the Dam is About to Break

    A summary of Second Quarter 2009 Negative Equity Data from First American CoreLogic shows that Nearly One-Third Of All Mortgages Are Underwater.


  6. grim says:

    Another hit to the DIF this week, at least a few hundred million. Hat tip CR.

    From Reuters:

    Regulators want Guaranty bids by Monday: report

    U.S. banking regulators have asked prospective buyers of struggling Texas bank Guaranty Financial Group to submit bids by Monday, the Financial Times reported, citing people familiar with the matter.

    Regulators are hoping that three banks that had bid for Colonial Bank — Canada’s Toronto Dominion, JPMorgan and Spain’s BBVA — will step in to bid for Guaranty, the paper reported on its website on Sunday.

    The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp on Friday shuttered Alabama lender Colonial. About $22 billion of Colonial’s assets will be sold to BB&T Corp, a southeast regional bank.

    Guaranty is the second-largest publicly traded bank in Texas, with about $16 billion in assets, according to its website.

    Last month, the lender said there was “substantial doubt” that it can continue as a going concern after loan losses and write-downs left it short of capital.

  7. grim says:

    Is the FDIC saving Corus for next week?

  8. Shelly says:

    I was at an open house yesterday in Bay Head. The realtor and I had an interesting conversation. She said that her husband works on the street and feels interest rates will stay this low or close to it through the end of next year. She says that they need to or many at the jersey shore will be in deep trouble. Alot of 2nd homes are going to come on the market after the season and that Sept-Nov will see alot of action. I asked her what would hapeen if rates went up a point or even two by the end of next year. She said the shore would be in either total chaos or perhaps even a freefall. There are many who are just making do to get by and have put themselves in a very precarious financial position.

  9. SG says:

    Unintended casualty of govt intervention.

    Mom and Pop used-car dealers left without clunkers

  10. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Pension Funds Pare Stocks, Ignoring Economic Rebound (Update1)

    Aug. 17 (Bloomberg) — The world’s biggest pension funds lost confidence in stocks as the best long-term investment, cutting holdings or leaving them unchanged during the steepest rally since the 1930s.

    Funds overseeing money for California teachers and public workers, Dutch government retirees and South Korean private- sector employees reduced their target weightings for equities this year, data compiled by Bloomberg show. The rest of the 10 largest kept them the same. U.K. pensions have cut stock allocations to the lowest since 1974, according to Citigroup Inc. Managers handling Oxford and Cambridge University professors’ assets have been selling shares as the MSCI World Index posted a five-month, 53 percent rally.


    Insiders bailing, pension funds selling, sounds like nobody believes the rosey outlook.

  11. SG says:

    C4C compared to New Deal.

    Cash for Clunkers Could Be a Driving Force

    There’s lots that’s interesting about the Cash for Clunkers program. It could be the prototype for a new New Deal for America.

  12. grim (7)-

    Gotta pace yourself, you know…

  13. SG (11)-

    New Deal? More like New Reaming.

    The New Deal- agree with it or not- was a noble attempt to fix a huge problem. C4C is just a slick, cynical attempt to band-aid a giant stab wound and gain some short-term PR points.

  14. Stu says:

    C4C cost less than bank failure Friday. Hardly a new deal. More like trying to turn around a battleship using your arm as a rudder.

  15. NJGator says:

    Grim – You’ve got email from Stu.

  16. SG says:

    Japan’s economy leaves recession

    I have funny feeling that US will be considered as Japan of coming decade.

  17. grim says:


    Working on it.

  18. Frank says:

    “Home Prices: There’s No Quick Recovery Ahead”

    I don’t think so, went to the REDC auction yesterday and homes were selling like hot cakes. Bids were incredible. Studios in NYC were selling for $1K/sqf. Where’s the recession??

  19. Stu says:

    China to buy U.S. mortgages – report


    “In June, Reuters reported Asia-Pacific sovereign wealth funds including CIC and Singapore’s Temasek, which have been rocked by soured bets on western financial companies, are diversifying into the riskier arena of distressed asset investments.”

    I personally think they couldn’t resist the appeal of the ‘ninja’ loan.

  20. Frank says:

    So buy a house now before an Asian cash buyer outbids for your favorite house.

  21. Stu says:

    Grim…thanks a million. You know how I work, so there may be something in this for you.

  22. freedy says:


    you get my em

  23. NJGator says:

    I just spoke with my friend who is closing on a place in Montclair later this week. The sale on his co-op fell through a few days ago. Apparently the co-op board denied the sale. No explanation given, lest they open themselves up to a lawsuit. Their neighbors on the board, of course, gave them no heads up that they might want to hold off on buying a new place, so they are freaking out about the impending financial cliff they are about to be pushed off of.

    So, anyone know of someone in the market for an UWS co-op with very motivated sellers and a quick available? Or alternatively know of a good attorney to sue the cr*p out of a NYC co-op board?

  24. kettle1 says:

    HEHE 5

    and yet the average joe continues to stare at the dry sea bed wondering why the ocean pulled back.

    most people are still lapping up the propoganda, as i hear how its a good time to by and get an 8K credit from people all the time.

  25. gary says:

    For what it’s worth, I was at a barbecue this weekend; one guy just had has work week reduced to 4 days and will get adjusted pay accordingly and another had to take a pay cut.

  26. gary says:

    Dear Sellers,

    Tick… tick… tick… tick…

  27. Stu says:

    At the dog park on Saturday, a mom from Glen Ridge was just let go a couple of weeks ago. She then went on to complain about her taxes.

  28. Sastry says:

    Kettle1/Seneca [Re yesterday’s posts…]

    Do people shopping for 750k houses fall for the 8k tax credit? I’d think in this market it is probably easier to negotiate the price down by 10k or so more easily.

    Oh, the weather here is *so much* better than in south India — 100+ several days, without AC in quite a few places.


  29. Looks like the dump phase of the pump/dump cycle is upon us.

    So fcuking predictable.

  30. Did I just see an ad for Loggins & Messina?

    They must be broke.

    God, I hated them the first time around.

  31. kareninca says:

    #5: Mish’s post leads to a new Mr. Mortgage site!!! Mark Hanson, that is. he keeps changing location without leaving a trail! I’d kept checking Field Check Group and being disappointed; it turns out that on his new site there is a August 1 post and now an August 14 one re the coming foreclosure deluge.

    one advantage of C4C is that it gets off the road a lot of the miserable old monster SUVs whose bumpers wouldn’t align with the bumper of my 96 Honda Civic. and if they get scrapped they won’t be driven by adolescent males.

  32. Is the Chinese charade over?

  33. karen (31)-

    You best be looking for an armored vehicle or a tank. Probably want to check into a good rifle, shotgun and sidearm, too.

    It’s about to hit the fan.

  34. njescapee says:

    clot, here in the fl keys, we are 6 years into the of real estate price collapse. I think we may have finally bottomed out @ 70% off of the 2004 peak. I mean it can’t go to zero. right?

  35. chicagofinance says:

    21.Stu says:
    August 17, 2009 at 8:28 am
    Grim…thanks a million. You know how I work, so there may be something in this for you.

    Stu: you are the ultimate Jersey man….if you give to grim in an envelope, I would grant you high exalted Hudson County status…..

  36. make money says:


    One catastrophic storm and you’re looking at very close to zero.

  37. njescapee says:

    mm, that’s the price one pays to live in paradise.

  38. DL says:

    Ref: 30 CyClot: Same for Hall and Oates.

  39. make money says:

    Watch the dump period strengthen the USD and everyone flights to safety. Could be a good shiny buying opportunity this winter.


    Are you back into SRS or SKF?

    I’m still underwater on my SRS position but picked up some more last week trying to average down.

  40. grim says:

    Call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye.

  41. escape (34)-

    The market never goes to 0. However, can’t say that FL is bottomed-out, as the foreclosure moratoria and deliberate lender backlogging of REO is still grossly distorting the market everywhere.

  42. chi (35)-

    If Stu hands Grim an envelope, it’s probably stuffed with Quiznos’ coupons.

    “if you give to grim in an envelope, I would grant you high exalted Hudson County status…..”

  43. escape (37)-

    paradise = hell

  44. njescapee says:

    point well taken. I remember living in Somerset county 30 yrs ago. It was paradise compared to NYC and now it’s just sprawl. too bad.

  45. make money says:

    mm, that’s the price one pays to live in paradise.


    Safer to rent in paradise.I never been to FL keyes but paradise is a strong word.

    I rented a 6,000 sqr ft (5 bed 5 bath, pool, butler, maid and chef) $3M home in Hawaii for two weeks this summer for $13,500. Three couples and 7 kids. Best Maui vacation ever.

  46. make (39)-

    Been building SRS position all the way down. Out of SKF for a long time.

    Furiously trading in and out of TBT and have been shorting selected issues for a trade for months on end.

    Very tiresome. I’m ready to ride a good, hard trend into the toilet.

  47. John says:

    How does a mom lose her job? Did social services take away her kids?

    Stu says:
    August 17, 2009 at 8:52 am
    At the dog park on Saturday, a mom from Glen Ridge was just let go a couple of weeks ago. She then went on to complain about her taxes.

  48. njescapee says:

    mm, my total cost of ownership mtg, re tax ins, hoa is less than nj re tax on a 70s 2500 sf colonial in central NJ.

  49. John says:

    For what its worth my 80 year old uncle is still working 3 days a week cause everytime he tries to retire they keep raising his pay. Took 30 of us out to dinner. Recesssion is over baby, watch out for rising yields and inflation, the bull is running wild. Remember blue collar jobs and home prices are loosely connected to the earlier stages of a recovery. The lazy civil service worker in a no money down cape is not exactly piviotal to our economic recovery.

    gary says:
    August 17, 2009 at 8:48 am
    For what it’s worth, I was at a barbecue this weekend; one guy just had has work week reduced to 4 days and will get adjusted pay accordingly and another had to take a pay cut.

  50. John says:

    I love Madman, premier of third season was on AMC last night, it was great.

    OK, a 60’s jokes.

    Q. Why don’t women need to wear wristwatches?

    A. There is a clock on the oven.

  51. HEHEHE says:


    How was Belmar?

  52. Secondary Market says:

    there’s always a sucker, in this case two:
    a long time family friend was able to sell his ocean county home for full asking price in 4 days (i think it sold in the 280-300k range). sold for no particular reason outside of his wife wanting a bigger home. house he sold was 4 bed 2 1/2 with finished basement. here’s his trade up mncmansion in barnegat:

    he’s an officer for the ocean county sheriff’s dept. and his wife is a stay at home mom. 2 kids. he’s 31 and will probably be underwater nov 1 when he moves in to the new place. he also said the builder is throwing all kinds of incentives at him if they work with ryan home’s finance company.

  53. make money says:

    Nice peace from a future CT Senator…

    There is an inexplicable, but somehow widely held, belief that stock market movements are predictive of economic conditions. As such, the current rally in U.S. stock prices has caused many people to conclude that the recession is nearing an end. The widespread optimism is not confined to Wall Street, as even Barack Obama has pointed to the bubbly markets to vindicate his economic policies. However, reality is clearly at odds with these optimistic assumptions.

    In the first place, stock markets have been taken by surprise throughout history. In the current cycle, neither the market nor its cheerleaders saw this recession coming, so why should anyone believe that these fonts of wisdom have suddenly become clairvoyant?

    According to official government statistics, the current recession began in December of 2007. Two months earlier, in October of that year, the Dow Jones Industrial Average and S&P 500 both hit all-time record highs. Exactly what foresight did this run-up provide? Obviously markets were completely blind-sided by the biggest recession since the Great Depression. In fact, the main reason why the markets sold off so violently in 2008, after the severity of the recession became impossible to ignore, was that it had so completely misread the economy in the preceding years.

    Furthermore, throughout most of 2008, even as the economy was contracting, academic economists and stock market strategists were still confident that a recession would be avoided. If they could not even forecast a recession that had already started, how can they possibly predict when it will end? In contrast, on a Fox News appearance on December 31, 2007, I endured the gibes of optimistic co-panelists when I clearly proclaimed that a recession was underway.

    Rising U.S. stock prices – particularly following a 50% decline – mean nothing regarding the health of the U.S. economy or the prospects for a recovery. In fact, relative to the meteoric rise of foreign stock markets over the past six months, U.S. stocks are standing still. If anything, it is the strength in overseas markets that is dragging U.S. stocks along for the ride.

    In late 2008 and early 2009, the “experts” proclaimed that a strengthening U.S. dollar and the relative outperformance of U.S. stocks during the worldwide market sell-off meant that the U.S. would lead the global recovery. At the time, they argued that since we were the first economy to go into recession, we would be the first to come out. They claimed that as bad as things were domestically, they were even worse internationally, and that the bold and “stimulative” actions of our policymakers would lead to a far better outcome here than the much more “timid” responses pursued by other leading industrial economies.

    At the time, I dismissed these claims as nonsensical. The data are once again proving my case. The brief period of relative outperformance by U.S. stocks in late 2008 has come to an end, and, after rising for most of last year, the dollar has resumed its long-term descent. If the U.S. economy really were improving, the dollar would be strengthening – not weakening. The economic data would also show greater improvement at home than abroad. Instead, foreign stocks have resumed the meteoric rise that has characterized their past decade. The rebound in global stocks reflects the global economic train decoupling from the American caboose, which the “experts” said was impossible.

    Though the worst of the global financial crisis may have passed, the real impact of the much more fundamental U.S. economic crisis has yet to be fully felt. For America, genuine recovery will not begin until current government policies are mitigated. Most urgently, we need a Fed chairman willing to administer the tough love that our economy so badly needs. That fact that Ben Bernanke remains so popular both on Wall Street and Capital Hill is indicative of just how badly he has handled his job.

    Contrast Bernanke’s popularity to the contempt that many had for Fed Chairman Paul Volcker in the early days of Ronald Reagan’s first term. There were numerous bills and congressional resolutions demanding his impeachment, and even conservative congressman Jack Kemp called for Volcker to resign. Had it not been for the unconditional support of a very popular president, efforts to oust Volcker likely would have succeeded. Though he was widely vilified initially, he eventually won near unanimous praise for his courageous economic stewardship, which eventually broke the back of inflation, restored confidence in the dollar, and set the stage for a vibrant recovery. Conversely, Bernanke’s reputation will be shattered as history reveals the full extent of his incompetence and cowardice.

    As congress and the president consider the best policies to right our economic ship, it is my hope that they will pursue a strategy first developed by Seinfeld character George Costanza. After wisely recognizing that every instinct he had up unto that point had ended in failure, George decided that to be successful, he had to do the exact opposite of whatever his instincts told him. I suggest our policymakers give this approach a try.

  54. Stu says:

    If Stu hands Grim an envelope, it’s probably stuffed with Quiznos’ coupons.

    So true!

  55. NJGator says:

    Clot 42 – Man, I am still laughing from that one!

    “If Stu hands Grim an envelope, it’s probably stuffed with Quiznos’ coupons.”

  56. Seneca says:

    Sas, Kettle1, etc.

    >>Do people shopping for 750k houses
    >>fall for the 8k tax credit?

    For the record, I think it is absurd to be looking at a 750k home if you qualify for the 8k tax credit. That is why I asked the Realtor why she was mentioning a credit that requires your HH income to be less than 150k in a home that she expects to sell for 7xx.

  57. Stu says:

    In the continuing chronicles of how moronic our state is, the DMV (or whatever acronym they are going by this year) failed my 95 Civic for a power-steering failure. I was exhausted that morning and didn’t have time to fight with them as it was one of those up at 5:45am mornings where first I had to drop the dog at the boarder, then do the inspection, then get to work on time on like four hours of sleep. Well needless to say, I was pretty sure my car did not have power steering evidenced by how hard it is to turn the wheel when you are not moving. So I look in the drivers manual and sure enough, it says there is power steering. I stupidly bring my car to my mechanic and tell them my issue. They get the car into the garage, up on the lift and immediatelly discover that my car does not have power steering. Now this makes for an embarrassing phone call. I suppose power steering was an option on my car at the time.

    Moral of the story, trust your first instincts and if your memory is bad, open the hood and look to see if there is a power steering fluid reservoir.

    I feel like 10% less of a man just sharing this with all of you.

  58. RUWaiting says:


    “Salary figures: 627 Central Jersey school employees earn $100,000 or more”

    “Superintendents, district administrators, school principals, supervisors — and even 48 teachers — are among the 627 public school employees in the Home News Tribune coverage area earning six-figure salaries this year, according to records obtained through the state Open Public Records Act and available on MyCentralJersey.com.”

    “All of the superintendents in the 23 school districts that this newspaper reviewed are earning more than $100,000. Five of them earn more than $200,000.”


  59. HEHEHE says:

    I agree with Schiff that the gubmints policies are idiotic I do not agree with his comments re foreign stock markets. China’s up 100% because their gubmint is encouraging asset bubbles like we did not because of evidence of any sustainable growth that will outpace the rest of the world.

  60. Stu says:

    Want to turn the economy around? Reward those have the where with all to spend money wisely. Not the ones who will just default on the next loan.

    Give me $4,500 to trade in my civic and I’ll buy another one and won’t default on my payments.

    Give me $8k to purchase a second home and gosh darn-it, I’ll buy a second home and won’t default on the loan.

    Give some poor sap with 50K worth of credit card debt $4500 to trade in his tank and you will end up with a guy driving a slighlty smaller tank with 60K worth of credit card debt. And you will have helped this moron out through your tax dollars.

    Moral hazard has been completely ignored in all of these government bailout programs. When the shiznit hits the fan again in another couple years, the headlines will read how quickly we forgot the lessons of the last crisis. Income gap be damned.

  61. renter says:

    No Need to Wear a Watch

    “So despite the tumbling prices for trophy apartments, a striking triplex penthouse apartment in a clock tower overlooking the Brooklyn Bridge and New York Harbor has gone on the market for $25 million………….”


  62. Seneca says:

    …coming up on CNBC in 60 seconds, “Is Renting the New American Dream”

  63. njescapee says:

    wonder if that’s the old Watchtower building formerly owned by Jehovas Witnesses?

  64. John says:

    BTW how does NJ charge for motor vehicle registrations? In NY it is by weight? How is NJ? At work the people in NJ say it is just random and not based on anything.

  65. chicagofinance says:

    njescapee says:
    August 17, 2009 at 10:33 am

    wonder if that’s the old Watchtower building formerly owned by Jehovas Witnesses?

  66. Cindy says:

    65 – Watchtower?


    Geez – I gotta get off of this music thing – off to work…

  67. Cindy says:

    There must be some kinda way outta here.
    Said the joker to the thief.
    There’s too much confusion,
    I can’t get no relief.

  68. Seneca says:

    Answer to Is Renting the New American Dream: Depends where you live.

    This is riveting.

  69. Painhrtz says:

    business man they drink my wine
    come and take my Earth

  70. njescapee says:

    Cindy, I met and BS’d with Jimi for a few minutes @ a NYC music store back in 1969.

  71. Cindy says:

    70 Pain – actually, The way I learned it… Businessmen
    They drink my wine.

    *Plowmen dig my earth. (I’m pretty sure)

    None of them along the line
    Know what it is worth.

    71 – Escapee – Oh my friggin Gosh. Wow.

    I officially start on Wednesday but I need to put in a few hours today – talk soon.

  72. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [57] stu

    We’ve all been there, and car design changes haven’t helped. Hell, I used to be able to do my own tune-ups. Now I can’t even find the damn plugs.

    If it helps, my neighbor couldn’t get his mower started, so I suggested checking the plug for fouling and a spark. I lent him a plug socket and he said it wouldn’t work. I checked myself, found he was using the wrong size, which meant he was just spinning on nothing, and gave him a different size plug socket. I think he wound up tossing the mower anyway.

    And the reason it didn’t work? He was a WS type that had a lawn service, but he lost his job and decided to start cutting his own with a mower that he hadn’t used in years (and probably never drained).

  73. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [72] cindy

    I always thought it was “come and dig my herb”

  74. ruggles says:

    56 – Seneca, a smart agent would have responded to you with one of the following:

    1. not everyone who looks at a 750k house is looking to spend that much. and really, I don’t care if I sell you this home as long as I can sell you a home. Lets see where you come in and what we can do. Here’s our mortgage guy…

    2. True the 8k isn’t much when the house is over say $200k but its icing on the cake. and we can try to wiggle an extra 8k out of any offer you put in. lets get you preapproved and into a great deal now.

    3. Well if you like this neighborhood, I can show you one with even better architecture where your 8k will really go far. Its just over there in West Westfield Adjacent (aka Plainfield) and you better be looking now cuz in 8 years it’ll be a one seat ride into Manhattan.

  75. Stu says:

    Nom (73):

    “And the reason it didn’t work? He was a WS type that had a lawn service, but he lost his job and decided to start cutting his own with a mower that he hadn’t used in years (and probably never drained).”

    Sounds like a good applicant for another construction job made available from the Obama Porkulus plan. Give this man a jack hammer already.

    And you wonder why the big dig up in Boston killed drivers.

  76. Seneca says:

    rug [75]
    >> “smart agent”

    …what’s that, maybe 1 out of every 100?

  77. Painhrtz says:

    Cindy that would explain the weird looks I get singing along or could be how off key I sound.

  78. yo'me says:

    #52 sold for no particular reason outside of his wife wanting a bigger home. house he sold was 4 bed 2 1/2 with finished basement.

    Ryan homes are 4 bd 2 1/2 baths.The largest is the Courtland 3,923 sq ft with finished basement.Without the finished basement is probably about 3,000 sq ft.They have a long list of option make you think they are doing you a favor,when they throw it in there.
    the garage is an option.

  79. yo'me says:

    We’ve all been there, and car design changes haven’t helped. Hell, I used to be able to do my own tune-ups. Now I can’t even find the damn plugs.

    I cant even figure out how to take off the plastic,covering the engine to replace the exhaust filter.

  80. prtraders2000 says:

    Turned in the old Ford Explorer with 170k miles in a c4c deal. Got a Hyundai Elantra Touring. Nice litte car OTD 14k. Ridiculous that I had to pay sales tax on the $4,500 c4c rebate and the $1,500 mfg rebate. The dealership was mad busy and you could forget about getting the color/package you really wanted. I used the Costco car buying program and recommend it to anyone who’s a member.

  81. yo'me says:

    I used to have a 90 toyota celica,did most the tune up with it.It was still running,when i decided to give it to a college kid last year.Just got tired praying for it to die already,the damn thing just won’t die.It had over 200,000 miles on it.

  82. #81 – I used the Costco car buying program and recommend it to anyone who’s a member

    I used it on Sat and bought a Volvo C30. It seems to have been worth the $50 membership.

  83. maylook1day says:

    75 – i agree but that is if that particular agent was working in your self interest. I keep getting either ‘there are bidding wars on now’ or ‘that house is not going to last’ (not to mention the 8k) to create a sense of urgency.
    What you describe, and i think it’s a good approach right now, doesn’t create any urgency and probably why some realtors are still content trying to make you jump off fence or diss you and move on if they don’t think you have the money to do the deal.

  84. yo'me says:

    Tosh nice hefty horses and torque on the c30.28 mpg highway too.

  85. HEHEHE says:

    Show Me the Original Note and I Will Show You the Money
    posted by O. Max Gardner III
    As mortgage delinquencies rise each month, and as the number of foreclosures increase each quarter, the “new mantra” of many pro-se and represented consumers is to demand that the mortgage servicer “prove up the original note.” Is this just some new and creative gimmick that has been sold to the desperate homeowners and to a few lawyers who have attended “progressive” seminars or is there really something to it? I submit that there is really something to it.


  86. yo'me says:

    Nice Coverage too.No cost maintenace for 5 years.

    Volvo is excited to announce an unprecedented, best-in-class coverage plan that gives you five years of ownership at next to no cost on all 2009 models. It’s called the Safe + Sound Coverage Plan, and it offers tremendous value by saving you thousands of dollars on your vehicle repairs, and provides you peace of mind during your ownership experience.

    The Safe + Sound Coverage Plan offers you exceptional value and financial security that goes beyond crumple zones and airbags – it’s the security that only Volvo offers.

    It’s “Safe” because it’s from Volvo, and it’s “Sound” because you’ll be driving your Volvo virtually worry-free for five years. Here’s what you get with our new best-in-class coverage plan:

    5 Years 60,000 Mile Warranty
    5 Years Complimentary Factory Scheduled Maintenance
    5 Years Wear and Tear Coverage
    5 Years Volvo On Call Roadside Assistance

  87. Vegas says:

    Vegas heading the way of the planet of the apes

    will Las Vegas llok like a mad max movie in 50 years ?


  88. Seneca says:

    ptrade00 [81]
    >> Ridiculous that I had to pay sales tax
    >> on the $4,500 c4c rebate

    That’s funny cause I think its ridiculous that you got a $4,500 rebate to begin with.

  89. #85 – It sounded nice too, a very un-Volvo Volvo (I think it’s just a Volvofied Euro-Spec Focus RS).

  90. Shore Guy says:

    Does anyone have any history on this property in Bay Head? MLS ID #20902665

  91. Shore Guy says:

    “Moral hazard has been completely ignored in all of these government bailout programs. ”

    Bingo. And, it su-cks.

  92. Clotpoll says:

    Wake me up when there’s a rebate on ammo.

  93. Clotpoll says:

    shore (92)-

    Gubmint, industry, and most of the people who live in this country could give a whit about anything moral.

    That’s why we’re headed into a depression, and most either don’t know, don’t care or are covering it up.

  94. Clotpoll says:

    Tom deLay on Dancing with the Stars?

    He should be put against a wall and executed on TV.

  95. prtraders2000 says:


    Me too! But why wouldn’t I utilize a program like that if it were available. Now I’m holding out for the $100,000 1st time homebuyer rebate.

  96. NJCoast says:

    Shore Guy

    132 Main Ave., Bay Head

    Current List- $799,000
    Orig. List-5/16/08-$969,000
    Under Contract-6/16/09-$849,000
    Back on the Market-7/02/09-$849,000

    Last sale-7/21/99-$350,000

    Mortgage History-

    Still haven’t heard back from my friends- will let you know as soon as I do.

  97. yo'me says:

    China: The new Big Oil
    7:00am: The country is snapping up oil fields from Africa to South America to the Middle East. Soon it may be able to rival the Western giants.


    Why is GDP the basis of output of a country when profit is going to another country?Will it not make sense to use GNP when foreign accounts is deducted from it.

  98. Barbara says:

    Did a south jersey MLS tour last night in Cherry Hill (my old mean streets) and if you want too see what it means to chase a market, just click through about 16 pages or so. One “just reduced!” listing after another. Sad, however if anyone is interested, the area has great schools and the construction from the 70s isnt bad if you can overlook the dated finishes. Landscapes are usually kept up nicely and Philly, Center City is an easy PATCO 15 min ride.

  99. Barbara says:

    In fact, I compared comdo prices in the building I grew up in and they are about the same asking as they were in 86!

  100. NJGator says:

    This one’s for you, Cindy:

    AP investigation: Calif. lawmakers boost staff pay

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. – Against a backdrop of deep fiscal distress, several California lawmakers rewarded their employees with pay hikes during the first half of the year, an Associated Press review of legislative pay records showed.

    At least 87 California Assembly staff members received raises totaling more than $430,000 on an annualized basis, even as the state faced a growing budget deficit that led to furloughs and pay cuts for many other government workers and steep reductions in core services.

    The review of records obtained under the state Legislative Open Records Act found that salary bumps went to three employees in the office of Assembly Speaker Karen Bass, the Los Angeles Democrat who leads the 80-member chamber, and three to staff members of the Democratic caucus she oversees.

    In the 40-member Senate, nine staffers had a boost in pay, leading to an annualized increase of $152,000.

    Aides to several members of the Assembly and Senate said some of the increases were not raises in the traditional sense. Rather, they described the higher pay as extra compensation for employees who were working more hours.

    In the Assembly, 39 employees received pay increases of 10 percent or more. Of those, 15 saw increases of 20 percent or more.

    In the Senate, seven of the nine who received increases saw their pay rise by 10 percent or more as they began working more hours, according to staff.

    Five Assembly staffers and two Senate staffers who already made $100,000 a year or more saw their pay rise.


  101. NJGator says:

    maylook 84 – When Stu and I toured the FSBO, he asked the seller if they’ve had much activity with folks looking at the house. Seller claims the open house the previous weekend attracted “at least 8 potential buyers”. They’re just waiting to hear back on them for interest.

    We happen to have a whole slew of friends in the immediate area who called BS on that claim. They were home all weekend and would have noticed that level of activity.

  102. NJGator says:

    I thought this was a joke when I saw it on Gawker, but apparently it is legit:

    Tom DeLay Dances Back Into the Limelight

    Who knew that Tom DeLay was such a dancing machine? The former House Republican leader has been selected as a contestant on the upcoming season of “Dancing With the Stars,” joining cultural celebrities such as Grammy award winning singer Macy Gray and ’70s icon Donny Osmond.

    One thing is clear: the entire DeLay family is ecstatic about the Hammer’s transformation to Dancing Machine.

    “He’s been working hard all summer trying to get in shape, improve his flexibility, endurance, etc. He’s lost 12 lbs already!” daughter Dani DeLay Ferro, Dad’s former campaign manager, said in a message to the Sleuth via Facebook. “He’s taking this very very seriously and we are all sooooo excited! People probably don’t know that he’s a really good dancer!”

    Daughter Dani said she’s most excited “for America to get to know the funny, caring man that I’ve grown up with and worked for. They won’t know what hit ’em!”


  103. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [80] yome

    That should be accessible. Look for push-screws that hook into mounts on the engine blocks. Push and turn.

  104. SG says:

    I am so mad at C4C right now. It has basically pushed out all genuine buyers out. I am looking for new car, but it seems all dealers are just interested in trade-ins. Went to 3 dealers few week back, no one seem interested in buyers without C4C trade in.

    To add to insult, once C4C rules came out, my old car 1993 Nissan Altima did not qualify, but some 2000 car models make it.

  105. freedy says:

    i wonder what kind of increases the
    state of NJ employees received?

    plus car expenses,,

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [95] clot

    “Tom deLay on Dancing with the Stars?

    He should be put against a wall and executed on TV.”

    isn’t that the same thing???

  107. Ellen says:

    #56 re:$8000 rebate

    I’d love to know where that formula that states a mortgage can be 2.5 to 3 times an annual income came from. That’s way out of line with reality.

    Back in the days when health insurance and property taxes weren’t ridiculous and everybody had a company pension plan, maybe. But a family with $150,000 annual income is lucky if they clear $6000 per month after deductions for their income taxes, health insurance, and retirement plans are taken. Once you tack on property taxes and homeowners insurance, you’re looking at a close to $3000 payment (or 50% of take home) on a 300k mortgage.

    I honestly don’t think anybody who qualifies for the 8k should be in a home mortgaged for more than 200k or so – and even that figure is probably a rice and beans stretch. I know lots of folks do it, and I’m seeing lots of those realtor placed 8k signs on places priced in the high 3’s and low 4’s, I’m just not clear why.

  108. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [76] stu

    Naw, the driver was killed by a riduculous and awful design element—hanging 10-ton slabs of concrete over a highway with metal hangars that were supplied by the lowest bidder, all to make the ceiling of the tunnel look nicer. The old tunnels had tile. Worst case would be a cracked windshield.

    Years ago, I turned down a position as counsel to the DOT Inspector General. I am certain that, had I taken that job, they would have had me back in Mass., investigating the Big Dig.

  109. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    ridiculous, even

  110. Bystander says:

    Anyone catch “Flip this house” on Saturday? I normally can’t stomach Armando but man, what a distaster for that Finnegan family. They bought a nice Spanish style home in San Clemente, CA for $600K. They gutted it, took out two more loans for $500K and still could not get it done. They are broke and wife is delusional because it is her ‘artistic dream’ to finish the home her way. They think they can get $2 million but home sits for months at $1.1 million with no offers. Home is now in foreclosure and they are living with 2 kids in a trailer behind someone’s home. Yikes!

  111. NJGator says:

    Nom 112 – That sounds like one of the Hollywood Metro station entrances. I think it is the one at Vermont and Santa Monica (Stu – refresh my memory here). Overhanging the station entrance is canopy shaped like an enormous metal football. Thing looks like it will fall on someone or at least block the station exits whenever the next big earthquake hits.

    If anyone actually rode the LA Metro system, it might be a giant liability hazard.

  112. yo'me says:

    #107 nom figured it out after breaking one snap on mount

  113. Shore Guy says:


    Thanks. I am about to e-mail you two others.

  114. Painhrtz says:

    Gator I have had the priveledge of riding it twice. Both times it was for the adrenaline rush because every time I’m out in LaLa land the ground seems to shake.

  115. HEHEHE says:

    “The country is snapping up oil fields from Africa to South America to the Middle East. Soon it may be able to rival the Western giants.”

    The problem for China is the same for the Western Giants. Access to the oil fields they “purchased” are still at the whim of the government of the country in which they are located. As so many oil companies have found in Venezuela, Russia etc you don’t always get what you paid.

  116. NJGator says:

    Pain 118 – Was anyone actually riding with you?

  117. Sean says:

    re #119 HEHEHE – you do if you have a carrier fleet.

  118. #114 – Bystander – I now have to watch. It may be wrong to say so but I loathed those people. They seemed to embody everything that was wrong with the past 10-15 years; entitled, arrogant and willfully self delusional.
    I’m sorry for the kids, I don’t remember them being jerky.

  119. Clotpoll says:

    by (114)-

    This, BTW, is the new CA version of “rich”.

    “Home is now in foreclosure and they are living with 2 kids in a trailer behind someone’s home.”

  120. HEHEHE says:


    BP and Exxon have a carrier fleet, ask the Iraqis’

  121. Painhrtz says:

    1 transient, I asked him if he road it a lot, he replied in Spanish, no he was just looking for a quiet place to sleep

  122. yo'me says:

    Best line ever:

    America is really great. It’s the only place where you can borrow money for a down payment, get a 1st and 2nd
mortgage and call yourself a homeowner

  123. NJGator says:

    OT – Does anyone know of a reliable, reasonably priced place to rent a car in Downtown SF (Not SFO) that allows for after hours returns? All of the big places close by 6PM, and I am trying to rent a car for a day to go up to Napa and not have to pay to garage it at a hotel and waste part of the next day returning it.

  124. still_looking says:

    off to the Pit again and will check in later…

    Does anyone know the best landline deals (we already have optimum cable and internet) is it worthwhile to get their voice too?

    Sick of our almost $60 phone bill for local only via verizon.

    Opinions, options?



  125. Stu says:

    He should be put against a wall and executed on TV.”

    “isn’t that the same thing???”

    Unfortunately, both would garner the same high ratings.

  126. Stu says:


    Most likely it is. Or you can do Vonage for $25 per month. Land line is dead in the water. VOIP or bust.

  127. #128 – still – I believe some of the Fios plans aren’t too much more than that, unless you really want to dump Verizon.

  128. #131 – I should add the Fios plans I was referring to are “Triple Play” types w/ internet/TV/phone.

  129. SG says:

    When considering the entire carbon footprint of this program, you will find that continuing to drive your current used car for as long as possible is one of the most green-friendly things you can do.

    A country can’t prosper destroying perfectly good used cars. At the end of the day we still have increased taxpayer spending to pay for destroying a perfectly good car. Hazlitt describes the fallacy behind thinking that when a hoodlum breaks a baker’s window it will stimulate the economy. The glazier may make a simple argument in favor of broken windows, but he overlooks the secondary consequences.

    CBJ: Cash for Clunkers: A Bad Idea

  130. yo'me says:

    HONG KONG (Reuters) — China’s $200 billion sovereign wealth fund, which suffered big paper losses on stakes in Morgan Stanley (MS, Fortune 500) and Blackstone (BX), is set to invest up to $2 billion in U.S. mortgages as it eyes a property market recovery, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Monday.

    China Investment Corp. (CIC) plans to invest soon in U.S. taxpayer subsidized investment funds of toxic mortgage-backed securities, which it sees as a safer bet than buying into the Federal Reserve’s Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF).


    Oh happy days….

  131. Stu says:

    Still (131):

    Don’t do FIOS before looking here.


  132. NJGator says:

    Still – Keep in mind with Vonnage that you are likely committing to a year of service. They have early termination fees for anything less than that.

  133. PGC says:

    #127 NJGator.

    Some of the big downtown hotels do hire cars. I think I used the Hyatt Regency down by the Embarcadero years back.

  134. Shore Guy says:

    Mrs. Shore wants to know if there is cash for husband clunkers.

  135. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [127] gator

    Some of the majors had rental offices downtown in parking garages. We rented a car there to do the same thing, and it meant simply returning it to the parking garage where the office was. Was Alamo or National probably (wife prefers National for the Emerald status).

  136. SG says:

    Obama, Bush and the Limits of Power

    This is why no matter what Obama does to expand government, it will fail to fix the economy. The economy, insofar as it is healthy, is the product of voluntary choices of production, trade and consumption, emerging spontaneously through networks of exchange. No one economic actor has the information to run the economy, no matter how many “experts” he hires. The economy is in a sense more intelligent than the sum of its parts, as it coordinates through the information gathered from prices all the miraculous production and trade we see around us.

  137. Ben says:

    Economists don’t even try to micromanage the economy. They just try to artificially drive demand in every sector of the economy.

    They know 1 equation.

    Y = C + I + G

    Y = total output
    C = consumption
    I = investment
    G = government spending

    They assume I is fixed. They try to pump up C + G. In their warped little brains, the best possible outcome for the economy is when people spend 100% of their money or when the government does it for them.

  138. Ben says:


    GDP, as we traditionally define is, is a ridiculous statistic. Given the structure of the global economy, America’s GDP is meaningless. How can we have such a high “Gross Domestic Product” when we don’t make any products?

  139. BklynHawk says:

    139/Shore Guy-
    I think after my wife saw how bad my foot looked this morning she wants to trade me in for a new model.

  140. Shore Guy says:


    On any given day, the women of America would gladly trade in their men if they could get $8,000 for them.

  141. New Deal? More like New Reaming.

    The New Deal- agree with it or not- was a noble attempt to fix a huge problem. C4C is just a slick, cynical attempt to band-aid a giant stab wound and gain some short-term PR points.

  142. Stu says:

    Just doing some funky number crunching and was wondering where you all would put Glen Ridge prices in a timeline from the peak. For example, are we back to 2004 pricing, 2005 pricing, 2003 pricing, etc.

  143. ruggles says:

    139 – our recycling facilities aren’t set up to handle such massive levels of toxic waste.

  144. John says:

    Reader’s Digest plans to file for bankruptcy
    NEW YORK (Reuters) – Reader’s Digest Association Inc, publisher of the widely-read Reader’s Digest magazine, said on Monday it would likely file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy for its U.S. businesses to cut its debt load.

    The media company, known worldwide for its family-friendly namesake magazine, been trying to slash costs and boost growth since it was taken private in 2007 by an investor group led by Ripplewood Holdings LLC.

    The bankruptcy would take the form of a so-called pre-arranged filing, Reader’s Digest said in a statement. A pre-arranged filing comes after a company has already reached deals with its lenders to cut its debt.

  145. Stu says:

    Wow, it wasn’t more than a decade ago that TV Guide was one of the most expensive places to advertise.

    Think they didn’t adjust well to DVRs and on screen guides?

    Sort of reminds me of the KODAK story.

  146. BakingInBridgewater says:

    question for the board and landlords on the site:

    the air conditioning unit broke down at our rental condo in Bridgewater. we called landlord at noon yesterday to let him know of the problem. landlord is a younger guy in his 30’s that lives in Whippany. he calls us back 3 hours later and says he’s coming to look at the unit. nothing gets fixed yesterday.

    today, he’s having the unit looked at but it doesn’t seem like he’s getting anywhere with having the unit fixed.

    we have an 18-month old son and sleeping at the condo was horrible last night, temp 83+ the entire night.

    what is the landlords responsibility to ensure proper working air conditioning? if we have to stay at a local hotel tonight can we deduct this from our monthly rent???

  147. Secondary Market says:

    i’m tracking those drops daily. my realtor got all huffy at me a couple of weeks ago because i told her i’m not going to make any offers until after sept since i’m not rushing to get into the school system. i know she wanted to pull out her realtor cue card and say “but these homes won’t last” but she kept quiet. so far every home we toured has dropped on avg 10k over the last week.

  148. HEHEHE says:


    Where’s the bounce?

    Goldman Sachs’s Cohen Says Recession Is Ending ‘Now’ (Update1)


  149. John says:

    HEHEHE baked into the cake already, everyone knows the recession is over. Just look at how packed Stone Street is on Thursday nights.

  150. prtraders2000 says:

    153 BIB

    Went through the same thing with my landlord a couple of weeks ago. He did get someone over to fix it, but I had to stay on top of him. I considered calling the a/c guy myself and deducting the bill from the rent. Luckily didn’t need to go that route. How about picking up a window unit for the sake of the little guy. Might be worth it.

  151. HEHEHE says:

    Stone street? That in Belmar??

  152. Shore Guy says:


    Kodak, is a very sad story. They invented digital photography and then sat on it in order to roll out the Odisc” camera, then sat on it some more s 35mm point and shoot took off, and then more or less sat on it as others released consumer-oriented digital, while, at the same time, selling off its desktop printing technology (as HP, etc.) ramped up production.

  153. John says:

    I am more of a Hamptons person, I did go to DJs in Belmar many many years ago and spotted many a spray tanned guido, their mating rituals were very interesting. I am at work this week, but next week will be out east, maybe if you are at Hampton Classic I will run into you.

    HEHEHE says:
    August 17, 2009 at 3:58 pm
    Stone street? That in Belmar??

  154. HEHEHE says:

    Hampton Classic? That in Belmar?

  155. grim says:

    Hudson’s finest..

    Suspended tax collector faces drug charge

    The Hudson County Prosecutor’s Office charged suspended Tax Collector Alan Bartolozzi on Monday with cocaine possession after finding a small amount in his office desk.

    Prosecutor Edward DeFazio said investigators found the drug in Bartolozzi’s desk during a search of his office several months ago.

    Bartolozzi has already been charged with stealing more than $4,000 from the town’s public employee union and is being investigated in connection with an unspecified amount of money missing from town coffers.

  156. Barbara says:

    I’m a landlord and I can’t make repair people call me back or show up at an hours notice. In fact, just like for homeowners, normal turnaround for a repair is two days minimum, often 4.
    Whether you owned the condo or you rent, you would have to wait a few days for your repair. Most homeowners don’t resort to hotel stays for such a minor malfunction and would have backup or get backup like a window unit. Maybe you can ask your landlord if he has a spare window unit while you wait.

  157. x-underwriter says:

    Secondary Market (154)
    Sounds like you’re a realtor’s absolute nightmare. I’m saying this as a total compliment.

    If you want to see what a perfect homebuyer for a realtor is, watch House Hunters on HGTV…total labotomied zombies that only care about crown moulding and a place to do their scrapbooking. It always ends with a syrupy party that shows new owners having their friends and family over..total brainwashing for idiots.

    My wife watches it on occasion and I can only make it for about 6 minutes before having a violent urge LOL

  158. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [153] baking

    Generally, the rule is that any mechanical must be maintained, absent a lease provision to the contrary, even if it isn’t a necessary mechanical item (like, say, water). That is because you are presumed to be paying for it, so it must be kept up. I am not so versed in NJ landlord-tenant to know whether you can simply call for repairs and withhold from rent. To preserve relations, a call to the LL, advising that you plan to do this, would be politic.

    If the condition is so bad that you can’t stay in the unit, you have been “constructively evicted” and have the kind of recourse you seek. I can’t say with any conviction that lack of AC constitutes constructive eviction, but this is a pro-tenant state, and if you can get a doc to say that junior shouldn’t be in such a hot environment, then it makes the case for hotel bills.

    FWIW, I have been dealing with Bell A/C as they did the work I am seeking to have fixed under warranty, and they are proving to be rather nonresponsive. And the funny part was, they were pretty defensive about their work and their professed concern for their reputation. I think Stu gave me a recommendation but it likely wasn’t for the Bridgewater area.

    Note to contractors: Don’t pontificate about your reputation, then fail to deliver. Looks bad.

  159. Barbara says:

    House Hunters is a joke. They almost never suggest a lower off from the ask, and its always hurry! and of course, they just look at three houses before deciding.

    The buyers always get excited about the Pergo. Klassy.

  160. Barbara says:

    “lower off” = lower offer

  161. Barbara says:

    BTW, “hardwood flooring” is solid wood, right down to the sub (I’m looking at YOU HGTV) not a thin piece of real wood glued on top of some composite crap.

  162. Sean says:

    My response would be who fixes a window AC unit? Tell your cheapo landlord to go out and get a replacement either new or a reasonably new one from Craigslist TODAY, or you will buy one yourself and deduct it from the rent.

    Be sure to put it in writing, and use blood for the ink too.

  163. Barbara says:

    154 Seneca
    Its breathtaking, the drops. I told my husband we could live like fat rats back in the hometown! Its gonna take a toll though, just when a lot of the retail down there was getting better, higher end, shops I’m sure will start closing. Still, I think its a good deal.

  164. Barbara says:

    149 Stu
    I have not crunched numbers, just basing this on my many years of looking in GR and MC. The asking prices still look very 2005 to me. Don’t know about the actual sales, what have you observed? Approx % of ask to sale prices? I’d be curious.

  165. grim says:


    From back on Thursday:

    85 Park Unit 304 closed for $434,725!!!

    Holy Glen Ridge Comp Killer! And in “The Reserve” too!

    It was purchased for $780,000 on 05/08/07.

  166. grim says:

    Unit 304 included the first 3 years of property taxes being paid by the seller.

    At the current tax rate and assessment, we’re talking about a $50,000 concession.

    So that place sold at a net of about $380k, and I didn’t even subtract out commissions.

    We’re talking a good 50% off peak prices for this high-end Glen Ridge property.

  167. grim says:

    And we’re talking a block from midtown direct, not a block away from Orange.

  168. NJGator says:

    Grim – Re Reserve tax assessments, I wonder if Glen Ridge takes the same position for The Reserve that Montclair is taking with The Siena – namely that there are no other comparables outside the building. Was this sale short? Am wondering if it will be slugged as a non-useable sale. If not, I suspect that residents of The Reserve will be getting a mighty big tax reduction come next year.

  169. Secondary Market says:

    the best compliment i received from a realtor was: “i don’t think we’re a good fit for each other, perhaps you should work with another agent.” she simply could not understand my 3% appreciation rule.

  170. NJGator says:

    Nom 165 – The contractor recommended by our friends who did the c/a install was Bloomfield Cooling & Heating. They found them to be very knowledgeable and reliable.

  171. Painhrtz says:

    X house hunters is a guilty pleasure for the wife and I. We play how long till their under water, and oh, better only bid three thousand under the offer you wouldn’t want to insult the seller game. We go through a bottle of wine pretty quick watching it. New take on old drinking games, even better are their reno shows have to finish your drink everytime some says the word pop. I lead a boring life.

  172. skep-tic says:

    my expectations for realtors at this point are that they respond to email, provide available market data in a timely fashion and generally not try to sell me crap outside of the criteria I’ve given them. You cannot expect them to read calculated risk and the WSJ or to expect housing prices to drop, ever. I know that there are realtors out there who actually “get it,” but they are like needles in a haystack, so you sort of have to accept reality a bit if you are going to work with one and not constantly be firing people.

  173. Stu says:


    I’ve never heard of Bell so I doubt I recommended it. :P

  174. NJGator says:

    Ugh track level at NY Penn on a 90 degree day feels a bit like the seventh circle of hell.

    And Stu, just in case you are not checking your cell, this does indeed confirm that I made the 520.

  175. Barbara says:

    180 skep
    exactly, I see them as people who have the keys to get inside, and not much more. I’m also upfront about agressive offers and my time not being wasted on inane pricing.

  176. Barbara says:

    someone posted not only sale price but mortgages out on a house today. Where can I get that info ie: not just last sale price but how much money has been taken out on a property altogether?

  177. SG says:

    I have a house for John,

    5 Caruso Court, Bridgewater NJ 08807

    Home for Sale for $2,489,000 with 5 bedrooms and 6 full baths, 2 half baths. This 8,500 square foot home was built in 1991 on a lot size of 2.4 Acre(s).

  178. chicagofinance says:

    As an aside: can I say how much I hate insurance salesmen……FCUK..FCUK…FCUK them….wasting my time by poisoning my clients with pointless obfuscating nonsense…they can follow simple directions either…..

    The answer to the question “what happens when we stop sending you money” is not “here are two options to send me more money and allow me to book a sale.”

  179. chicagofinance says:

    grim…since when does fcuk put you into mod? unmod

  180. NJGator says:

    Barbara – not every county has public records online. Essex certainly does not. There may be others, but the only ones I know of for sure are Morris and Monmouth. You can google those conties and online public records search to find the links to the searchable databases.

  181. chicagofinance says:

    Roth IRA Change May Not Be ‘Game Changer’ for Savers (Update1)
    By Alexis Leondis and Laura Myers

    Aug. 17 (Bloomberg) — Changes to U.S. tax laws next year give high-income earners planning for retirement a decision to make: pay now or pay later.

    Taxpayers making more than $100,000 a year in adjusted income will be allowed to convert to Roth IRA accounts from traditional IRAs after that limit is lifted at the end of the year. That means 16 million Americans, according to tax returns filed with the Internal Revenue Service in 2007, can consider whether they want to make tax-deductible contributions if they have a traditional IRA or pay the taxes up front and have tax- free withdrawals during retirement with a Roth IRA.

    Which is better depends on future tax rates and how much the conversion will cost. It may not make sense to pay taxes today at a higher rate because many investors will be in a lower tax bracket during retirement, according to Tom Orecchio, a fee- only adviser at Modera Wealth Management in Old Tappan, New Jersey.

    “From a tax perspective, I think when people do the math, it’s not going to be as game changing as they expect it to be,” Orecchio said.

    Higher-income households that could benefit from the income limit changes are not rushing to switch, according to a survey released today by San Antonio-based United Services Automobile Association. The national survey of 1,259 adults between 45 and 64 years of age shows that for those with an IRA and a household income of $100,000 or more, 9 percent are planning to convert in 2010.

    Tax Assumptions

    Most IRA assets are held in traditional IRAs, based on a June report by the Investment Company Institute, a Washington- based trade group for mutual funds. Investors held $3.2 trillion, or 89 percent of IRA assets, in traditional IRAs at the end of 2008. Roth IRAs accounted for $165 billion, or 5 percent, of all IRA assets.

    Converting to a Roth IRA for future tax-free withdrawals is based on the assumption that Congress won’t change the tax code, according to Linda Duessel, equity market strategist for Federated Investors Inc. in Pittsburgh.

    “That’s a heroic assumption now more than ever,” because of increasing public debt and Social Security and Medicare payouts for baby boomers, Duessel said.

    Opening a Roth IRA still has an adjusted income limit of $120,000 for individuals and $176,000 in 2009 for couples who file joint tax returns. Traditional IRAs don’t have income limits. The maximum annual contribution to Roth IRAs and traditional IRAs combined is $5,000 for savers under the age of 50 and $6,000 for savers over 50. The tax change doesn’t cap the amount that can be converted to a Roth IRA from a traditional IRA.

    Holding Period

    The Roth accounts, including those converted from traditional IRAs, must be held for five years and accountholders must be at least 59 and a half before money can be withdrawn tax free. Savers who don’t follow the withdrawal rules or meet exemptions face a 10 percent penalty for distributions, said Leonard Wright, a certified public accountant in San Diego.

    Investors who decide to convert to Roth IRAs must declare the conversion amount on their tax forms. The tax owed depends on whether the assets being transferred are made up of pre or post-tax dollars, according to Ed Slott, an IRA consultant in Rockville Centre, New York. In 2010 only, converters will be able to pay the tax liability in 2011 and 2012.

    Tax Bill

    A taxpayer in the 28 percent federal tax bracket who shifts $100,000 of pretax dollars to a Roth IRA from a traditional IRA would pay $28,000 in taxes, in addition to whatever is owed in state taxes, said Tom Davison, a fee-only adviser at Columbus, Ohio-based Summit Financial Strategies.

    “There are many people who simply don’t have that kind of a side account to pay the income tax, so for them it isn’t very practical to consider a Roth,” said Christine Fahlund, a senior financial planner at T. Rowe Price Group Inc. in Baltimore.

    Wealthy investors who won’t need to take money from an IRA in retirement might want to consider a Roth because unlike traditional IRAs, Roth IRAs don’t require withdrawals once accountholders reach 70 and a half, said Mitch Drossman, head of national wealth strategies for New York-based U.S. Trust, which is owned by Bank of America Corp. That makes Roth accounts a worthwhile estate planning tool as heirs can enjoy continued asset growth without paying taxes when they withdraw, Drossman said.

    A partial conversion to a Roth IRA from a traditional IRA may be the most tax-efficient plan because of the diversification benefits, said Orecchio, who estimates about half of his clients may convert some money to a Roth IRA next year.

    “You never know how the tax code will work in the future. By owning different IRAs, you’re protected from whatever the government might decide to do,” Orecchio said.

    Partial Conversions

    Partial conversions may be desirable for those with larger portfolios that would require a large tax payment at conversion, said Fahlund of T. Rowe Price. And the flexibility of partial conversions can also be beneficial to those who are self- employed or whose income varies year to year. In a year with less income, an investor can convert less of a traditional IRA to avoid having a larger tax burden for the year, according to Fahlund.

    There’s a fallback for investors who decide to convert and regret the decision. A Roth can be switched back to a traditional IRA account, or recharacterized. Since investors who convert to a Roth IRA don’t have to pay taxes on the conversion until the following year, they have until April 2011, or October 2011, if they get an extension to file, to reverse the conversion, said Slott, the IRA consultant.

    “It’s like getting to bet on the horse after the race is over,” Slott said.

  182. House Whine says:

    185- there is no feeling of warmth to me in that house at all. But the view would be o.k.

  183. ruggles says:

    189 – But the view would be o.k.

    Of 287?

    seriously, 2.5 mill for a bridgewater mailing address?

  184. skep-tic says:

    I am skeptical about all long term tax planning at this point. gov’t has shown its willingness to apply laws retrospectively w/r/t bonuses, and I expect that one day many years from now when the USAs finances are in complete shambles that it will be a political winner to tax all wealth no matter what promises where made against taxation in the past.

  185. Maylook1day says:

    Gator 108 – thanks for your boots on the ground insight. My wife, bless her that she’s going along for the wait for some time – she hates if I even suggest that their are strawmen in with some of their suggestions of property activity. They should know not to include the realtor open house as potential buyers.

  186. Cindy says:

    Thanks for the post Gator @ 102. Yeah, spending money – that is what the folks here in Cali know how to do so well.

  187. yo'me says:

    Japan, though, is a laggard in the region, as gains in much of Asia have galloped ahead at nearly 10 percent in the second quarter. Yoshimasa Hayashi, Japan’s economic and fiscal policy minister, told reporters Monday that conditions here are likely to remain severe.

    Economists have attributed the rapid recovery in Asia to large economic stimulus packages (especially in China), a spurt in manufacturing, an easing of credit, and the health of Asian banks that were largely unscathed by the U.S. and European debt crisis.

    In Europe, too, there are signals of recovery, with Germany and France becoming the first two major industrialized nations to officially shake off the global recession. The growth in both countries, though, was an anemic 0.3 percent in the second quarter, and economists said it is far too early to declare an end of the recession in Europe, where Britain, Italy and Spain are still stuck in their worst decline in decades.

    The U.S. economy shrank by 1 percent in the second quarter, but the Federal Reserve signaled last week that it expects the downturn to ease and that it will begin pulling back this fall from its intervention in the economy.


    More Stimulus for the US?

  188. grim says:

    From Philly.com:

    Sovereign down 517 jobs in PA, even with no-layoff deal

    Sovereign Bancorp has cut its Pennsylvania staff to 2,710, from 3,227 at the beginning of the year, confirmed spokesman Andrew Gully, when I asked him.

    Cuts aren’t just at the Boston bank’s former Wyomissing and Philadelphia headquarters. It’s “across the business lines,” says Gully, spokesman for Sovereign, which is owned by Spain’s Banco Santander. Nationally, Sovereign has slipped from 12,000 to just under 10,000 workers in eight states.

    So 517 jobs gone in PA, some of them after the January 30 deal between the bank and dissident shareholder-employees. That deal says “Santander will not terminate and will not to permit Sovereign to terminate, except, in either case, for cause, the employment of any Sovereign employees employed by Sovereign in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania” until next year.

    “People can take voluntary departures,” Gully pointed out. “We’d like to reduce jobs. They get an enhanced severance package if they left.”

  189. yo'me says:

    Economists have attributed the rapid recovery in Asia to large economic stimulus packages (especially in China), a spurt in manufacturing, an easing of credit, and the health of Asian banks that were largely unscathed by the U.S. and European debt crisis.


  190. grim says:

    Double extra bonus points to the guy who left this comment on the Philly.com story:

    Seems to be the “new” 4th greatest lie ever told after “I love you”, “the check is in the mail”, and I won’t @#@%&$ in your mouth. Is it any wonder why people do NOT trust big business

  191. grim says:

    Although I need to correct, the 4th greatest lie is:

    “I’m from the government, and I’m here to help”

    So that would be the 5th greatest lie ever told.

  192. lostinny says:

    114 Bystander
    We watched that episode too. It was like watching a train wreck. I had to stop yelling at the tv after scaring the dog.

  193. lostinny says:

    128 SL
    We’re using Vonage. Very reasonable. We were going to go with Time Warner’s phone service but they wanted to charge extra for voicemail.

  194. Barbara says:

    it does not allow me to search by address. Any suggestions?

  195. lostinny says:

    DH has decided he wants to move back to Jersey so he can get his gun license. How do I argue with that?

  196. Sastry says:

    #205 and #128:

    Vonage is very good. They have a plan where you get unlimited service for about $20/mo if you pay one year’s worth at once.

    If you want even cheaper option and have a computer on all the time, you can use magicjack! It’s ideal for outgoing calls, and not as convenient for incoming calls.

    On another note, optimum offered me some very cheap deal for internet, phone, and TV (80 bucks/mo for two years or something like that) — didn’t take it because we like Vonage. Might we worth calling the Optimum guys though.


  197. Bystander says:

    Clot #123,

    I describe them as “nouveau poor”. I found a thread on Tivo where the owners (see Uber poster) are defending their decisions as tough luck caused by bad economic times. Watch that episode. It is a microcosm of the entire bubble – from humble home to monster beach mansion dreams, cast down to Airstream reality. To quote Graham Nash – “he’s Kind Midas in reverse”


  198. Bystander says:

    “King Midas in reverse”

  199. x-underwriter says:

    Secondary Market says:
    she simply could not understand my 3% appreciation rule.

    LOL…I’d pay money to watch that video.

    I do have to agree with skep-tic (180) though…there’s only so much you can expect out of them. They’re generally not people who have any desire to mentally challenge themselves on the job so bombarding them with statistical analysis and theories isn’t going to do anything except tune them out.

    The best you can hope for is they just are honest, give you straight answers, and don’t try to play you for a sucker. You’re on your own as far as making the right decision.

  200. x-underwriter says:

    Painhrtz says:
    X house hunters is a guilty pleasure for the wife and I.

    Is this the same guy that crashes down mountains on a bike? Since when did you get so domesticated? LOL

  201. Stu says:

    Barb (171):

    From my really raw analysis based simply on what people are paying per square foot of house near the FSBO that we were considering, it appears we are somewhere in early 2004 for pricing. The data sample is pretty small, but probably fairly representative of the actual trend.

    From 1/2003 to 1/2005, the average price paid per square foot of single family home was $220. This is based on a sample of 118 homes.

    From 8/2008 to 4/2009, the average price paid per square foot was $242 with a sample of 11 homes. 3 sales were unusable in this period. I didn’t see any unusable sales from the earlier period. Hmmmmmmm, I wonder why that is?

  202. kettle1 says:

    Seneca CHiFi

    in regards to my vcomment to seneca the other day:

    Home price: $750,000
    Downpayment: 20% ($150,000)
    Mortgage: 600,000
    Terms: 30yr @ 5.8%

    Monthly PI (Principle + Interest): $3,520
    Monthly PITI (Principle + Interest+Taxes+Insurance):$5,395
    Note: PITI assumes an approximite tax rate of about 2% or about 1,000/month

    Total monthly home ownership cost (assuming about 150/month in upkeep, maintenance): 5,400

    Assuming a gross family income of 200,000 the monthly cost of the purchase as described would cost the family about 32% of their gross income (45% of net income). If the family makes 250,000 then the purchase as described would cost the family about 25% of their gross income (37% of net income).

    Given that we are in the middle of he worst economic downturn seen since the great depression, and that it is a global down turn, the odds of a family seeing one of the earners unemployed for a period are much greater then during normal periods of economic growth. At the level of expense this purchase represents, one of the family earners ( assuming a 2 income family) losing their job and facing a high probability of ending up with a reduced income in any new job they find, would be a disaster wihtout a substanital cash resevre for the famy to fall back on.

    Now you can argue that tax savings on mortgage interest can be estimated at about 1200-1400. But this reduction would not be seen until the end of the year and with the current tax environment the continuity of the mortgage tax break and the size of said break are in question. The family still has to make the payments based on the pre mortgage deduction amount and will not see any mortgage break until the end of the year.

    You would also be paying 660,000 in interest over the life of the loan, and the probability of you refinancing to a lower rate are very slim.

    So as to my comment about you being crazy…… If you have the cash resevres and the down payment to afford a 750K home then my question is why not rent for a fraction of the price it would cost you to by and wait for the housing market to shake itself out one way or another. It will take years to do so, but ask anyone who bouhght during the last bubble, you will end up much better off.

    Note that if you made the purchase as described above, we are talking about you having about 250K in the bank as downpayment and cash reserves. In the current econoic environemt there are much better things to do with your money then sink a substantial amount of it into a depreciating asset that will take 10 – 15 years to break even if you are lucky and will become a substantial tax liability the day you sign the closing documents.

    (note) the numbers caluclated for the home purchase are rounded and will note add to the penny.

  203. stan says:


    staten island is beating Somerset Nj in the little league WS 3-0

    make it stop

  204. NJGator says:

    Apologies if this has already been posted:

    Squeaking by on $300,000

    HARRISON, N.Y. — The live-in nanny is the first downstairs. She packs the school lunches at a kitchen window, overlooking three acres of velvety grass and little streams that slope toward a gate with a sign that says “Birch Hill.”

    Upstairs, three children begin to stir.

    In the midst of cheese omelets and Honey Bunches of Oats and vitamins placed next to folded napkins, the lady of the house descends.

    “Morning,” says Laura Steins, 47, wearing a dark Armani suit and take-charge heels. Her blue eyes are lustrous and her skin is golden, and even with wet hair and no makeup, she radiates confidence.

    But she’s months overdue for a visit to her colorist, a telltale sign of economic distress for a woman such as Steins. The smell in the basement could mean a crack in the septic line; unlike a $200 hair appointment, a plumber will be in the thousands. And from the breakfast table comes one more urgent need from a 10-year-old.

    “At my birthday party, every single girl had a phone,” says Katie Steins, making the case that an enV2 phone with matching cover is just standard in her crowd.

    Steins kneels down to face her daughter. “If you continue to tell the world how undesirable your phone is — it’s not a flip, it’s not a swivel, it’s not an LG — you will not have a phone.”

    Steins takes a breath. Life in this $2.5 million house was built on the premise of two incomes, not the income of a divorced mother of three in a tanked economy. Her property taxes are $35,000 a year, the nanny is $40,000 and the gardener is $500 a month.


  205. njescapee says:

    Kettle, face it, many folks are not ready for the new normal to live below one’s means. I don’t know how much pain has to be felt before the message sinks in. not sure how anyone could sleep at night with such high debt burden and wouldn’t count on tax relief long term since that gubmint tax policies are unpredictable.

  206. chicagofinance says:

    215.kettle1 says:
    August 17, 2009 at 9:04 pm
    Seneca CHiFi
    Given that we are in the middle of he worst economic downturn seen since the great depression, and that it is a global down turn, the odds of a family seeing one of the earners unemployed for a period are much greater then during normal periods of economic growth. At the level of expense this purchase represents, one of the family earners ( assuming a 2 income family) losing their job and facing a high probability of ending up with a reduced income in any new job they find, would be a disaster wihtout a substanital cash resevre for the famy to fall back on.

    So as to my comment about you being crazy…… If you have the cash resevres and the down payment to afford a 750K home then my question is why not rent for a fraction of the price it would cost you to by and wait for the housing market to shake itself out one way or another. It will take years to do so, but ask anyone who bouhght during the last bubble, you will end up much better off.

    ket: Serious question…..have you ever had a hemorrhoidectomy?

  207. chi (218)-

    I don’t think you can survive without hemorrhoids. You’d be crapping yourself all the time.

  208. Something’s gotta hold it all in, right?

  209. Or is a hemorrhoid an inflammation of the sphincter?

    sl, please weigh in here, or I will have to find the answer at WebMD.

  210. Wow…WebMD is super-easy to use. Here’s the answer:

    “What are hemorrhoids?

    Hemorrhoids are swollen veins in the an@l canal. This common problem can be painful, but it’s usually not serious.”

    I will now teach myself how to perform a colostomy. G’night.

  211. Qwerty says:

    CAV @ 10:25pm,

    Squeamish? Click the “Images” link when running your “hemorrhoids” Google search.

  212. nw says:

    I think the story about the 8k credit on the 750k house was to point out the mindlessness of the realtor’s sales pitch.

    You have to be a first time buyer making less than 150k(married couple) to qualify for the entire credit.

    I don’t think it had anything to do with intent, so that one can be put to rest.

  213. Seneca says:

    nw – correct.

    What the hell is everyone drinking tonight anyway?

    Ket, dude, seriously, I think we are in agreement for the most part.

    Buying a 750k+ home when you don’t even earn 150k in HH income is crazy.

    Buying a 750k home when you have the money for the 20% down and cash reserves to pay your mortgage for a while might be stupid, though maybe not crazy.

    Trying to reason with a Realtor over and over again and expecting a different outcome each time, that’s Albert Einstein crazy.

  214. Barbara says:

    Stu, I’m glad you are treating last springs sales as yesterdays news. I had a realtor send me sales as far back as last sept, trying to convince me that prices were holding steady.

  215. Mantalooker says:

    Hi Chicago # 218
    I had a procedure done to correct similiar situation. A combination fissure ( micro tear ), and hemr. The doc also did a colonoscopy while under the anesthesia ( nice guy )… doc in Red Bank at Mon. Med. Center. Took a couple of weeks to regain feeling and full comfort/ confidence and have never looked back. Oh well.. a post from an infrequent poster. I respect the board and all I learn. TOPIC Watching for the houses I dumped in S. Mantalooking at the top to come back to the banks or distress but they are all hanging in so far. Most S. Mantoloking oceanfront taxes now $ 20 k a year and up… plus Brick Twp. taxes… looked in bay Head… fair taxes in town ( proper ) which inflate the values rightfully so… we’ll wait for a while… my 5 cents… Dave

  216. still_looking says:

    thanks everyone for the phone info! Time to make calls in the morning…I just got home and I’m whupped.

    Hemorrhoids…. yep dilated veins… when they thrombose (clot – no not you, actually the act of congealing sort of) they get godawful painful. Hie thee to the colorectal surgeon at that point.

    Yes, thank you guy again…. I know I can count on you for cool info! :)

    [cue warm schmoopy feeling…]


  217. still_looking says:



    gawd I need sleep….zZZZZZZZZ


  218. Ann Lawn says:

    I like it.
    Thought along those lines when I dropped the oil on a 20HP B&S twin recently

  219. Golfers When tour, after checking the?Or a private, you want ?.Marketing method You, to increase loan.March in a Get 150 cash back on Verizon FiOS, insurance thats separate potential and expressions.Medical treatment You, both a pain.,

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