Army backstops home price declines in Ft. Monmouth closure

From the NY Post:

Army covers its bases on supporting house prices

HERE’S a government deal I know you’d love to get in on.

More than four years ago the US Army announced that it was closing its Fort Monmouth base in New Jersey and moving all the jobs to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

There was the usual eruption, with the Asbury Park Press — the local newspaper — doing a series of stories showing how the move would actually cost the government more money, rather than result in the projected savings.

The closure hasn’t yet taken place. And New Jersey’s elected officials are still fighting it.

But employees recently got some unbelievably good news. Our government in Washington, with your taxpayer money and mine, will make sure that people who must sell their houses in the Fort Monmouth area because of the base closing get 95 percent of the 2005 fair market value.

Just in case you’ve forgotten, house prices have come down tremendously since 2005. In fact, the market peak was in mid-2006, according to the Case Shiller index, which tracks real estate trends.

So the folks involved in the Monmouth closing have — essentially — been exempted from the housing-market cycle and will be able to sell high (in New Jersey) and buy low (in Maryland).

I’m told that those affected by the decision, which incidentally also includes people who retired because of the impending closing, were ecstatic at what was called a Relocation Fair last week. Nobody could recall the government ever making quite such a good offer.

What if you simply can’t sell in this market? Well, it seems that the government will buy the house although the price may not be as good as the 2005 value.

But this much is certain: A lot of folks I know would love to collect 95 percent of what their homes were once worth. And I also know that the squawking among the Fort Monmouth employees in New Jersey who’ll have to move or lose their jobs will probably die down.

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206 Responses to Army backstops home price declines in Ft. Monmouth closure

  1. freedy says:

    what a screw job for the rest of us.

    only in America, what’s next. Food allowance difference?

  2. grim says:

    From the Times of Trenton:

    RWJ Hamilton to cut costs, 19 positions

    Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital will eliminate 19 positions, including some nurses, as it consolidates space and cuts costs in a challenging economic climate for hospitals statewide.

    RWJ Hamilton also cut 22 positions late last year, citing a reduction in patients seeking elective procedures and an increase in uninsured people because of rising unemployment. Those positions were cut through layoffs and attrition.

  3. grim says:

    what a screw job for the rest of us.

    What? Like this one ain’t?

    From Barrons:

    Homebuyers’ Handout — Worse Than Cash for Clunkers

    THE FEDS SEEM INTENT UPON REFLATING the housing bubble. Not the Federal Reserve, as you may have read elsewhere, but the federal government.

    Following the cash-for-clunkers idiocy, the federal government may extend its subsidy for homebuyers. The $8,000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers is due to expire Nov. 30, but our solons in the Senate are looking to push back that deadline and possibly expand the credit to $15,000 to most homebuyers, not just newbies.

    As with the clunker cash, Uncle Sam is giving money to folks to do what they would have done anyway. Cash for clunkers temporarily juiced auto sales in August, but they fell back to their previous, depressed pace in September. And some 85% of the subsidy was pocketed by the dealers, not car buyers, according to one estimate (“Clunker Cash: No Boost for Consumers,” Sept. 29.)

    How’s that possible? Gayer figures that of the 1.9 million homebuyers that will get the $8,000 tax credit, 85% would have bought a house anyway. The price tag of $15 billion — about twice what Congress had intended — he reckons will result in approximately 350,000 additional home sales, at a price tag of $43,000 for each additional sale.

    That’s nothing compared to the tab for a possible one-year, $15,000 tax credit for all home buyers (except those with high incomes.) Gayer figured that would cost the Treasury $73.9 billion, which he estimated would increase house sales by a total of 253,000. Each of those extra home sales would cost the Treasury $292,000 ($73.9 billion divided by 253,000.)

  4. james says:

    Another day closer to UN Agenda 21. How are those granite counter tops?

  5. freedy says:

    how much control of our lives does the
    gov want? this is crazy. what’s next?

  6. Schumpeter says:


    Thanks for the Corrosion of Conformity video yesterday. Tuneful.

    This is also quite fitting:

  7. Schumpeter says:

    grim (3)-

    If you and me- who are Realtors- understand that this is basically a shotgun mouthwash for the economy at large, you have to believe that the cynics who dreamed up this madness understand what the eventual consequences will be.

    I guess they just hope they’ve got their own and have beat it out of DC when it hits the fan.

  8. Schumpeter says:

    Becky sure looks cute in them jackboots.

  9. 3b says:

    #3 Como on, we want our 15k.

  10. safeashouses says:

    Housing affordability gets worse in Australia.

    I told one of my aussie buddies if the NYC area with a population almost the size of australia’s could drop over 20% in 3 years, what makes Australians think there prices can keep going up. Sydney is up 170% over the last 9 years. frigging insane.

  11. Essex says:

    Nice tune James. Always had a soft spot for that type of music.

  12. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Andy Xie on Chinese Property Bubble's%20Economy&clipSRC=mms://

    Pertinent points: Lower lending standards (“similar to subprime”), resulting higher prices, subsequent decrease in demand, and it now comprises 20% of their annualized GDP.

    Tick, tick, tick…POP GOES THE BUBBLE.

  13. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Grim unmod 13

  14. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    I’ll pick D) all of the above:

    Declining Empire, Banana Republic, or Failed State?
    Not long ago, it would have been seen as something of a joke or the product of a warped mind to ponder whether the United States is a declining empire, a banana republic, a failed state — or all three.

    But these days, there are plenty of serious and intelligent commentators, including historians, ex-public servants, and journalists, who are not raving lunatics, but who are nonetheless disturbed by what they see taking place in this country.

    Of course, the fact that the U.S. is on the road to ruin won’t be news to those who have been regular visitors to Financial Armageddon and When Giants Fall or who have read my books, but for those who believe today’s America is the same as it always was, the following excerpts will be a real eye opener

  15. A.West says:

    I won’t get my $15k regardless – I heard rumors of a $300k/yr household income cap. But it could help when I’m selling my house.

    The general principle is terrible – micromanagement of citizen behavior through financial sticks and carrots.

    Do the leftists on board really think this kind of system, where the government is favoring and disfavoring, regulating and manipulating people and actions is the way to go? Why is it only artists, writers and journalists that deserve to have their freedom protected from government interference?

    I think it’s much more liberal to stick with laissez faire, get government out of banking, the bedroom, housing, health, education, art, and stick with protecting individual rights, funded by a non-intrusive flat tax or sales tax.

  16. gary says:

    Jobless claims up 11,000 to 531,000. Good times ahead, buy now or be priced out forever.

  17. gary says:

    I like Rick Santelli. Whether you agree with him or not, he’s adamant and has a common sense approach.

  18. Escape from NJ says:

    A quick tale of my experience placing two bids on two seprate properties in the last two weeks. Both sellers had their homes listed at the price they paid in 2004 and 2005. My offers were far from low balls, 10% and 8% off list. Both sellers were offended by my offers. Their agents stated their client’s refused to make counter offers because I was not a serious potential buyer. And I should come back when I am ready to make a real offer. I asked one of the agents what a real offer would be and she said $5,000.00 off the asking. Anything lower would not be considered. I wished her good luck and ended the conversation.

    Clearly these properties are not truly for sale. They are what my wife and I now call “Sucker Traps.” The properties are only sale to a select individual who wishes to assume the debt obligations of the seller.

    Back to renting.

  19. Stu says:

    “Do the leftists on board really think this kind of system, where the government is favoring and disfavoring, regulating and manipulating people and actions is the way to go?”

    I don’t even think the leftists agree with our government’s course of action. We are essentially doing what Japan did and look where the Japanese are now.

    I really think that the only chance our sorry country has to recover in some shape or form would be through a major war. Perhaps with China? I’m pretty lefty, but a much more independent thinker so I rarely follow the party line in lock-step. Hence, I do think it was our manufacturing base that ramped up during and post WWII that got us out of the financial doldrums of the depression and not FDR’s social programs. It certainly helped that much of Europe’s manufacturing base was blasted into smithereens thanks to the Nazis and then the Allies bombing. Although, we did get a lot of much needed infrastructure improvement out of it, which is much better than continuing to extend unemployment insurance, with nothing to show for it but improved ratings of ‘The View’.

    I don’t wish for war, nor do I think it is going to occur, rather we will slowly take our place in the new world order only somewhere in the second tier. Hopefully our seats will at least be in the loge providing us some protection from the element related to the incoming emerging market supremacy.

  20. Stu says:

    “I like Rick Santelli.”

    Rick is the Dick Schumer of CNBC.

  21. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Rhetorical Question:

    Were the prior week claims revised upward?

  22. Dissident HEHEHE says:


    In a nuclear age how are you going to have a war with another nuclear power?

  23. Stu says:

    Escape (20):

    “Clearly these properties are not truly for sale. They are what my wife and I now call “Sucker Traps.” The properties are only sale to a select individual who wishes to assume the debt obligations of the seller.”

    The problem is, there are still some suckers out there willing to skew the sell price curve upwards from where it should be. We met with our appraiser last night as we finally have our tax appeal court date on Monday and he thinks the shite will hit the fan when the severance checks start running out. Don’t forget, you are fighting a stream of intelligent individuals who are downsizing out of monstrosities that they really had no place to be in in the first place.

    Combine the severance effect with the option arm resets and the mortgage holders unwillingness to take distressed sales to market as it leaves potholes on their balance sheets and it is unlikely that this can go on forever in a jobless recovery.

    I only wish I worked on Wall Street. Not really!

  24. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Rhetorical Question #2:

    Are all the headlines and pundit pontificating from last week about an improving employment situation going to be revised?

  25. Stu says:


    My optimistic side says that even with all of the fanatics in the world and bad Hollywood films starring Jeff Goldblum, I doubt anyone is really willing to use nukes. Well besides our use of them in Japan sixty or so years ago of course.

    First person to use nukes in an offensive manner would face consequences so dire in a world court that their country or cause would lose all followers. In World War II, we held the keys. At best today, we can call an immigrant locksmith.

  26. Stu says:

    Rhetorical Question:

    “Were the prior week claims revised upward?”

    Rhetorical Answer:

    Not this time. Perhaps the job picture is improving?

    The chart is truly showing a jobless recovery. Typically clams ramp up an down in a parabolic curve. This time, the downward slope is much less steep than the climb upwards. Considering the pain of small businesses due to the credit crunch and quite actually the diminished demand for loans, it is likely that this recession for the worker will last a lot longer than the recession according to the traditional GDP-based definition.

    Perhaps this recession will one day be labeled, “The Great Wait and See?”

  27. Stu says:

    Clams…Delicious new clams!

  28. pricesstillskyhigh says:

    Interesting Article

    20 Year Old Buys Home With $183,000 FHA Loan And Just 3.5% Down

  29. yo'me says:

    Rescue efforts shift to small business
    As bailouts of big companies end, the administration redirects its focus

  30. james says:

    There will be war but it will be with Iran probably requiring a draft. Unlikely to stay confined to Iran. Do you really think Netanyahu trusts the Russians to handle Iran’s uranium enrighment? If I were in Israel I wouldnt have a nompound. I would have a titatnium basement 60 feet down.

  31. Kettle1 says:

    A west 16

    get government out of banking, the bedroom, housing, health, education, art, and stick with protecting individual rights, funded by a non-intrusive flat tax or sales tax.


  32. safeashouses says:

    OT (But I think Clot mentioned learning Spanish the other day) If you are interested in learning a second language, this guy taught himself Japanese in 18 months and now lives and works in Tokyo.

    He writes about how he did it.

  33. Stu says:

    Wow…79 weeks and counting!

    “Currently, a laid-off worker in a high unemployment state is entitled to up to 79 weeks of state and federal assistance. The average payment is about $300 a week. Supporters of the extension say it is necessary in an economy where 15 million unemployed are competing for 3 million jobs.”

  34. Kettle1 says:

    HEHE 24

    Proxy wars…..

    Vietnam 2.0 all the fun of a direct conflict but only half the half the Grays

  35. Kettle1 says:

    Stu, Hehe

    The only way nukes come out if it some one decides to hand them to a rouge group such as one of the potential scenarios that is worried about in pakistan (i.e one of the rouge taliban like groups getting control of a nuke and setting it off in southeast asia.

    The hard part is you can really retaliate with nukes. In such a case you could see a conventional invasion of the source nation, but since there was no state actor directly behind the detonation you wont see an “eye for an eye” that held the US and Russia in check.

    ALso consider that Russia considered Nukes as their best option against a US carrier group during the cold war. But now there are at least 2 different and highly effect “over the horizon” antimissle systems that we have little to no defense against and have the potential to rapidly devistate a carrier group.

    The game has changed as it always does, and one of the coldwar plays on nukes is now replaced by conventional weapons. In the same fashion, many of the coldwar type strategies for nukes have been replaced with non-nuclear conventional alternatives.

    There is now much less reason ( not to say there is none) for 2 large state militaries to use nukes against one another.

    War with china will be through asian proxies

  36. safeashouses says:

    #1 A. West,

    I agree with most of your post, but I think the gov does need to regulate banking with basic common sense rules like you can’t lever yourself 30 to 1 to buy MBS that average a 3% downpayment (effectively leveraging yourself 900 to 1). Or give loans to people you know can’t cover the payments, but you securitize the loan and dump it onto “sophisticated investors”, collecting a nice fee in the process and who cares what happens when the borrowers default in mass 1 to 3 years later.

    The regulaitions should be so common sense, like the rules in pre-k so everyone can understand them.

  37. Painhrtz says:

    Kettle my bet is on the Korean pennisula. China is just not willing to absorb the number NPK refugees they get each year. It just comes down to how close they want it to their border war that is.

    On the other hand wish I was a government employee at Ft monmouth. Get a sweet relo and no losses on house sale. For the people by the people, blehhh

  38. PGC says:

    My sign at the airport would read in English “If you can’t read this sign get the Hell out of the Country”

    I thought it would say “If you can’t read this, your probably own me and I’m your debt b1tch”

  39. Shore Guy says:


    You beat me to the punch, but here is a related article:

    Guess What: The Next Housing Bubble Is Already Underway

  40. Shore Guy says:


    Sound familiar?


    Tejada appears to be using imaginary numbers about the value of her house. She says that when she bought it, the house was just a “box” with no kitchen or bathroom. Now it is “gorgeous”. She claims the renovation has increased the value of her home from $155,000 to $255,000.

    “I bought my house for $155,000. And now, after all the fixing, after all the remodeling, my house is worth $255,000. So just within a month period, I made a $100,000,” she tells Market Place’s Scott Jagow.

    As far as we can tell, this is just mark-to-imagination valuation. She doesn’t give any indication about how she arrived at the conclusion that she has made a $100,000 gain in just a month. Even if her improvements had dramatically increased the value of the house beyond the cost of the improvements themselves, she would have to contend a declining housing market. From last year to this year, the median price of homes sale in Oakland, California has declined 28%.

    Tejada sees her house as an investment rather than a home. And she is planning on buying more homes, despite the fact that her income is already strained by her debt. This three bedroom house is just her “first house” and is “a little too big for me.” This is the opposite direction house buying traditionally moved in, with young people buying a small fixer-upper or renting and moving into larger homes as their incomes and family size increased. Tejada has started big.

    Tejada, a first generation immigrant from Guatemala, isn’t going to college. If that was ever the American dream, it isn’t hers. She’s going into home buying. Her older brother also bought a house. Indeed part of the reason she bought her house so young was that she wanted to beat her brother, who bought his house at the age of 21. She is very happy about the fact that her friends seem impressed that she owns a home.

    “This is the kind of mentality that our dad pretty much embedded in us since we were 12 years old,” she says.

    Her father bought a house shortly after moving to the United States. Shortly after buying the home, the family started acquiring nicer things. New cars, new televisions, that kind of thing. When Tejada’s brother asked about where they were getting the money for these things, the father said it was all because of the house.


  41. safeashouses says:

    #42 Shore Guy,

    With her mark to market ability, she should get a job on Wall St or working for the Fed.

  42. Escape from NJ says:

    Shore, (41)

    I agree. For what I experienced in the last two weeks the sellers agents are on the carrier deck claiming mission accomplished, all is clear. The only warning is to their sellers to hold tight and do not drop prices. Wait until Nov. 30 at midnight when the $8,000.00 tax credit pumpkin becames a $12,000.00 – $15,000.00 princess coach for all to ride on.

  43. Zack says:


    Why ever bother with retail sales.

    Why don’t you go to the court house. Is it because good houses rarely go to the court house?

  44. Shore Guy says:

    Well, I for one will not spend a single dollar above what I believe anything, house, car, dinner, is worth.

    We own our RE outright, and have no debts whatsoever — even every credit card bll gets overpaid each month so there is nothing overhanging us there either. When the right properties come up at the right price, we will buy. If it happens next month, great. If it happens next year, fine. If it does not happen for 10 years, it makes no difference to us — we will continue to take the vacations we want, and get the same usage out of someone else’s house that we would have wanted out of our own. Life goes on, and happily so.

    Remember when teachers, parents, etc. used to say something like, “Well if Billy went and jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you follow him and do it too?” Just because there are suckers jumping into purchases at prices that make no sense there is no reason for any prudent person to acquiesce to the absurd pricing of sellers and the absurd positions advocated by RE agents, the used-car salespeople of the RE industry.

  45. Kettle1 says:

    Shore, Safe 42

    Maybe John just found his “mexican” quant in Ms Tejada!!!!

  46. Kettle1 says:

    Ms tejada has one heck of a black box. I wonder if she borrowed Bi’s blaclbox?

  47. safeashouses says:

    Looks like China has a new excuse to ramp up its Navy. Somalian pirates hijacked a Chinese cargo ship.

  48. Painhrtz says:

    Bet a dollar Ms. Tejada’s dad is one of the folks driving around in a Mercedes, with a notice of lis pendens affixed to his front door in Cali.

  49. safeashouses says:

    #47 kettle1

    Maybe Frank should offer her a job. He says he’s always looking for talent.

  50. Zack says:


    very true..but reality most people are suckers and hence the triangular shape of society.
    A lot of poor, miserable people at the bottom.

    Agree, you can’t decide where you are born and what condition you are born in, but you do have freedom of choice and that separates the intelligent ones from the morons..

  51. safeashouses says:

    Shore Guy,

    “Think as I think,” said a man, “Or you are abominably wicked; You are a toad.” And after I had thought of it, I said, “I will, then, be a toad.” Stephen Crane

    I am hoppily a toad.

  52. Shore Guy says:

    “A lot of poor, miserable people at the bottom.

    Agree, you can’t decide where you are born and what condition you are born in, but you do have freedom of choice and that separates the intelligent ones from the morons”

    Hard work and perseverance are more important to success than anything else. There are plenty of folks who are born to successful parents who just lack the drive and abition to succeed. Granted, there are some folks who lack the intellectual firepower to get ahead, and this is no falut of their own, but I have known pleanty of middle-of-the-pack minds who out succeed “superior” minds through hard work. Grnted, there is also the luck fctor, but this is something that tends to aid a rise and not hinder one.

  53. A.West says:

    Without a government backer in the Fed, and federal deposit insurance, depositors wouldn’t let banks get crazy and levered like that. Back before the Fed, banks typically ran with 20% or higher capital reserves. There were some bank runs occasionally, but that was the market working – banks always had to be prepared for runs. And when a bank failed, the typical depositor recovery rate was over 90%, not a disaster to depositors or taxpayers. Often banks facing solvency issues got bought by competitors cheaply, rewarding them for maintaining sound capital and a strong reputation.

    Pretty much the opposite result of today’s micromanaged and regulated financial system that nevertheless managed to blow up – exactly because everyone assumed that with the fed, treasury, state banking regulators all backing these banks, how could they fail?

  54. Shore Guy says:


    Is that from his book “The Yellow Badge of Cowardice”?

  55. safeashouses says:

    #56 Shore Guy,

    I think it was from his complete book of poems.

  56. Shore Guy says:

    Just tried to buy a single ticlet to the Springsteen show on 11-8 at MSG, but none are available. If anyone has an extra or knows someone looking to sell (I woud even buy a pair), let me know.

    The Giants Stsdium shows I saw were a bit of a letdown and I hope this one will be better.

  57. Stu says:

    “Looks like China has a new excuse to ramp up its Navy. Somalian pirates hijacked a Chinese cargo ship.”

    What would General Tso do?

  58. John says:

    How much below face are you willing to pay?

    Shore Guy says:
    October 22, 2009 at 10:41 am
    Just tried to buy a single ticlet to the Springsteen show on 11-8 at MSG, but none are available. If anyone has an extra or knows someone looking to sell (I woud even buy a pair), let me know.

  59. Shore Guy says:

    Clot, etc,

    Do you know anything about the Ag Department’s loan program? We are considering acreage in a rural area, maybe even with vinyards, and it just struck me that there might be some good terms available from Uncle Sam.

    Also, what can you tell us about low downpayment FHA loans on multifamilies? We were wondering about buying a 3 or 4 family place. Renting 2 units on a yearly basis, and using the other one for seasonal rentals and using that one ourselves at some times during the year. If we can get something cash positive with little down, it may be worth the headaches. Thoughts?

  60. safeashouses says:

    #55 A. West,

    i thought lots of depositors were wiped out when banks failed during the Great Depression?

  61. 3b says:

    #44 You cannot fight it, so you have to try and make it work for yourself.

    Avail yourself of the 15k credit if applicable. Go FHA and put the elast amount down.

    Buyers now will simply be renting form the bank/govr for 15 or 20 years etc. with the (shrinking) tax write off. The days of “making” money on a house are over.

    It will simply be a place to rent from the bank, with the added benefit of not having to move subject to a landlord.

    Plus if you get in trouble you get your loan modified But again the days of “making money” on a house are over.

  62. Shore Guy says:

    “How much below face are you willing to pay?”


    I would go all the way down to zero, if that is what it took.

  63. Shore Guy says:

    I would even let you throw in some Jets tickets.

  64. Qwerty says:

    One-quarter of New Providence middle schoolers have the flu

    By Erin Eileen O’Neill/For The Star-Ledger

    October 21, 2009, 2:44PM

    NEW PROVIDENCE — More than 80 students were absent from New Providence Middle School today reporting influenza-like symptoms, according to schools Superintendent David Miceli.

    With a student population of more than 300 students, the absentees make up about 25 percent of the total student body.

  65. HEHEHE says:

    W is for wowHoboken still hopes for sky-high prices

    The W Hoboken sold the last of its 40 residential units in April 2007. By the time the building began closings in April 2009, however, the real estate market was much softer. And, in what’s become a familiar story, some of the original condo buyers were no longer able or willing to go through with their deals.

    Six contracts at the building have fallen through (with 31 units having closed and three more scheduled to close), according to Michael Barry, a principal with the project’s developer, Ironstate Development. And those apartments are up for sale again.

  66. John says:

    Anyone still holding Jets tickets for sale better pray for a win this weekend. The season is quickly headed for toliet. If they lose this weekend and against Dolhpins, your have four worthless regular season games and no play-off tickets, good luck with PSL sales Woody!!!

    I think they should come up with a Personal Springsteen License. For a fee you get guranteed face value tickets within 30 miles of your home town for life.

    Shore Guy says:
    October 22, 2009 at 10:56 am
    I would even let you throw in some Jets tickets.

  67. Stu says:


    Our little guy received the H1N1 inhalant version of the vaccine yesterday. Surprisingly, he was alive in the morning and did not immediatelly become an idiot savant.

  68. 3b says:

    gary: Brand new for you!! Mc Mansion in Blue Ribbon train town River Edge.

    Listing says some water penetration in the basement (stop yourself John).

    And the appliances are missing??? But there are expensive cars in the driveway, are the people living there now living without appliances? Anyhow either way, the agent says you should act quickly.

  69. Happy Daze says:

    68 HEHEHE

    Don’t forget to mention they hosted a condo marketing party there, with pro sports athletes attending!

  70. A.West says:

    Federal reserve began in 1913. Depression was in the 30s.
    Not the only cause, but the banking system was already a long way from market-driven capital adequacy by then, and was highly regulated, particularly in regard to geographical diversification.

    Look up the analysis of central/free banking by Lawrence H White, who is the best I’ve seen of current academics in this field.

  71. Victorian says:

    A. West –

    What about the depression in 1873?

  72. Kettle1 says:


    the 1873 event was triggered by banks and businesses being massively leveraged in railroads when the european railroad/housing bubble burst, wiped out credit and was in many ways a miniture 2008

    The common thread in all of these events is banks playing huge amounts of leverage into bubble events and then getting wiped out taking joe sixpack and the economy with them.

    Here is an easy solution. ban compound interest. bubble proplem, solved

  73. Kettle1 says:

    I said it before and now here it comes. The advent of the 4 day work week to cut costs.

    Utah’s 4-day workweek brings some dividends

    SALT LAKE CITY – Closing Utah state offices on Fridays has delivered an unexpected bonus: a big saving on overtime pay.

    New calculations show Utah saved $4.1 million in the first year of a government experiment with a four-day workweek.

    State employees were eager to leave after the longer workday, and weren’t inclined to work an extra hour or two.

  74. Shore Guy says:


    How was the gig with the three blind guys?

    On a related note, I just got this in an e-mail. I suspect Geo. Wash Univ has more posted on its Website:

    Washington, DC, October 22, 2009 – On behalf of a coalition of U.S. and international musicians, including R.E.M., Pearl Jam, Tom Morello and Jackson Brown, the National Security Archive today filed a series of FOIA petitions requesting the full declassification of secret U.S. documentation on the strategy of using music as an interrogation device at Guantanamo and other detention centers

  75. John says:

    The men in Utah need three day weekends, I only have one wife and she kills me with stuff on the weekend. Those Mormans have like 3-6 wives nagging them. That is one HoneyDo list.

  76. Shore Guy says:


    Next thing, they will be at half staffing at 13-hour days using two groups each working 3 days, thus keeping government open 6 days a week.

  77. maylook1day says:

    stu (25) I’ve also been surprised that certain houses have moved at the prices listed also. I’m getting this feeling and losing hope that the gov will prop up this housing market by any means possible (FOR YEARS). Until then, everything my Realtor says (don’t wait, act now, houses selling at list) is kinda true. i know otherwise but fear I may be gray haired by the time prices are back in line and reasonable. if there is not another catalyst it’s going to be a long, slow, slog.

  78. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    This is a must read commentary from Arthur Leavitt on the woeful state of the muni bond market.

    I’d comment on this, but I can’t. I’ll leave it at that.

  79. John says:

    what is a good stainless frenchdoor fridge with icemaker/water thru door? Every single one I look at the ratings suck.

  80. Stu says:

    GE is best for top/bottom, but I can’t say who makes a reliable french door. Captain cheapo had a water dispenser on the inside and an ice maker in the freezer. Saves a lot of interior space.

  81. John says:

    With three kids I can’t have them open door every time they want water. But it would save on Air Conditioning in Summer. Seems all French water/ice dispensing fridges have lots of complaints, can’t find a single one with good reviews.

  82. Shore Guy says:


    We gave up on French door with Ice in the door. We have a GE, French door, double freezer door, and ice in the freezer. With chilled water in the door, one’s need for ice goes way down anyway. We had ice in the door of our last one but do not miss not having it now.

  83. Shore Guy says:

    Nom, Clot, etc,

    Can a partnership receive a FHA loan?

  84. make money says:

    Bet a dollar Ms. Tejada’s dad is one of the folks driving around in a Mercedes, with a notice of lis pendens affixed to his front door in Cali.


    Also bet he qualified for a re-structure with an 2% rate. Madness never stops until you stop subsidizing.

  85. make money says:

    The men in Utah need three day weekends, I only have one wife and she kills me with stuff on the weekend. Those Mormans have like 3-6 wives nagging them. That is one HoneyDo list.


    In mormon land It’s the MAN who hands out the Honey-Do-List. Albanian man enjoy the same lifestyle.

  86. Hard Place says:

    Shadow inventory…

    News pundits talk about shadow inventory. So is this the shadow’s shadow inventory? Projects in limbo eventually move to alternative uses. Putting further downward pressure on rents. Putting further downward pressure on valuations to meet appropriate cap rates for the market. Putting further downward pressure on surrounding real estate values. If anyone thinks were in the late innings of the real estate downdraft, this is not a regulation game. We’re going into extra innings. Poor me, I’m just a lowly renter.

  87. make money says:

    Remember when teachers, parents, etc. used to say something like, “Well if Billy went and jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you follow him and do it too?”


    There is a safety net under the brooklyn bridge. You can’t get hurt. As a matter of fact there is a prize given out to the brave who jump. These people are called brave and patriots while you and your children are paying for it.

  88. make money says:

    On the Tejada article,

    Why would a 20 yr old go to college when they can make 100K a year just by owning a home and going to the beach.

    So much for 20yr old being stupid.(sarcasm off)

  89. Seneca says:

    Stu [70] – Was the inhalant being offered at school or via your local health dept?

  90. james says:

    Airport guard faces Obama threat charges
    Text size
    The Star-Ledger
    October 22, 2009

    A d v e r t i s e m e n t

    A casual chat at a coffee cart in Newark Liberty International Airport sparked a national security threat and a full-blown U.S. Secret Service investigation yesterday on the eve of President Obama’s visit to the state.

    John Brek, 55, of Linden was charged yesterday with a third-degree count of making terroristic threats after two airport employees alerted police to comments Brek made about Obama on Tuesday afternoon, authorities said. As part of the investigation, armed police officers swarmed Brek’s Hampden Street home in a predawn raid yesterday, neighbors said.

    The police found 43 guns, said Paul Kelly, a spokesman for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

    While authorities have not finished processing the weapons, so far none of them appear to have been illegally acquired, Kelly said.

  91. Seneca says:

    safeas [38]

    Rather than pre-K style common sense rules, how about a rule that the gubmint will let the chips fall where they may? You gamble, you lose, your business closes. End of story. No bailouts.

    Lot less workarounds that way.

  92. james says:

    This is what Tyranny looks like.

  93. Shore Guy says:

    Now I am no fan of B.O. but, when does a senator get off doing this to a president?

  94. Shore Guy says:

    Janitor? Guns? Hummmm. Ket? :)

  95. Escape from NJ says:


    I agree with you. FHA is the way to go. And if Glorious Mother Amerika wants to give an extra $15,000.00 come Dec. 1, point me to the closest re-education center.

  96. james says:


    Looks like a fraternity of Communists to me. Im just waiting for the pre dawn raid.

  97. Schumpeter says:

    shore (61)-

    Your income will DQ you for USDA mortgages. However, you should check out USDA’s FSA programs. This could be the ticket, if you’re going to have a marketable agricultural product:

  98. Schumpeter says:

    qwerty (67)-

    25% of the kids in my elementary school district are out with swine flu. Lots of teachers out, too. My wife is going from school to school covering absent teachers.

  99. 3b says:

    #99 point me to the closest re-education center.

    I will bring beer and snacks.

  100. 3b says:

    #80 No it wont. It will collapse sooner rather than later under its own weight.

  101. james says:

    One thousand grown men submitting to 6 oppressors. Dont let this be you.

  102. Schumpeter says:

    You know these polygamist Mormon guys are stupid. The first law they should lay down once wife #2 is in the fold is that all nighttime fun-and-games will be of the tag-team variety.

    More efficient, saves time, more fun for everyone. But these guys aren’t into fun; they much more resemble Taliban in that sense.

  103. Schumpeter says:

    John (108)-

    Combine that feature with the proven appeal of microwaved onions, and you’ll be able to buy all the grody LI McMansions your little heart desires.

  104. Kettle1 says:


    I dont work at the airports, i have too many hallways to mop and too much chewing gum to pick off the underside of lunch tables. Damn kids!

  105. Kettle1 says:


    besides i dont own any weapons. Guns are dangerous and evil and should be banned. there is no need for then in the world anymore and the constitution is an antiquated piece of paper that has prevented the US from being the true world power it could be!!!!

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [94] james

    Not so sound all conspiracy theoryish, but knowing how law enforcement works in tandem with policy, esp. in NJ, I’d say that Brek was known to own a lot of guns, which makes him suspect in the eyes of Milgram and her minions, and that his conversation was not as random as he supposed.

    I can tell you that Trenton does not like, as a matter of policy, for people to own guns, let alone a lot of them. I can further tell you that there is a policy to actively reduce ownership in creative ways.

    I can also tell you, from experience, that law enforcement personnel are informed of the policy, and trained in methods to capitalize on, or create, a fact situtation that justifies an arrest and seizure.

    So, how do you get the guns away from someone who procured them lawfully?

    Well, let’s just say, I have my doubts that the person who heard the supposed threats (a) was randomly there and genuinely surprised, and (b) is absolutely certain to give a verbatim account. Let’s further say that I would not bet against the possibility that Brek was set up and steered into making statements that provided just enough probable cause to arrest him, oh, and coincidentally, seize his guns.

    Because there is a high threshold for prosecuting threats, I have my doubts that Brek ever sees the inside of a courtroom for his “threats,” but I will bet hard money that he never sees those guns again either.

  107. Veto That says:

    Quick, question: Is the SP500 PE really over 140 right now?
    That is off the charts nasdaq 2000 levels right?

  108. Kettle1 says:

    Intractability of Financial Derivatives

    In principle, an alert buyer can detect tampering even if he doesn’t know which asset classes are the lemons: he simply examines all 1000 CDOs and looks for a suspicious overrepresentation of some of the asset classes in some of the CDOs. What Arora et al. show is that is an NP-complete problem (“densest subgraph”). This problem is believed to be computationally intractable; thus, even the most alert buyer can’t have enough computational power to do the analysis.

    Arora et al. show it’s even worse than that: even after the buyer has lost a lot of money (because enough mortgages defaulted to devalue his “senior tranche”), he can’t prove that that tampering occurred: he can’t prove that the distribution of lemons wasn’t random. This makes it hard to get recourse in court; it also makes it hard to regulate CDOs. Intractability Theory forms the basis for several of the technologies discussed on Freedom-to-Tinker: cryptography, digital-rights management, watermarking, and others. Perhaps now financial policy is now another one……

    If this paper is correct, no one should buy any but the most transparently simple CDOs/CDOs. The rest are value-less – they can’t be sold at any price – and the government won’t need to do anything to stop them from being traded. No buyer will touch them.

    The problem isn’t how to stop the trading of complex CDOs/CDSs; if this paper is right, that will stop. The problem is the capital already invested in complex CDOs/CDSs totals several times the world’s annual GDP, according to this paper, and all of that capital will be inextricably frozen for the lifetime of these instruments. That is a giant, indissoluble clot in the world’s financial arteries.

  109. Kettle1 says:


    Yes, and that is about 3X as over inflated then the Dot Com bubble was

  110. Painhrtz says:

    Nom you are correct sir. Once a gun becomes public property in this state the lawful owner will never see it again, even if they are cleared of any wrongdoing.

    Hell it has taken me 120 days and counting just to get a replacement firearms ID card. I misplaced mine but the Stasi are taking their sweet time in furnishing a new one.

  111. John says:

    Kettle, remember, you can’t see the underlying mortgages. I once did an audit of one of large IB’s that went down in flames in 2000. They bought 100 million loans and applied for CUSIP to securitized then sliced and diced and sold it. Audit step was to trace back to loan documenation that was sitting in boxes unopened from sleezy mortgage brokers, one look at trailor homes, scribbles and no stated income and half filled out applications with shady appraisals told me whole $100 million was trash. You can do all the Albert Einstein quant stuff you want but you can’t see the underlying mortgage applications.

  112. Painhrtz says:

    FYI most of my firearms are stored somewhere not in NJ. Only keep the actives iin the gun safe.

  113. Kettle1 says:


    i keep my MIG’s at a quite little airstrip in siberia that i lease for a song….

  114. Kettle1 says:

    a video of Franks new Guatemalan quant, Ms Tejada

    ( an actual interview with her)

  115. Veto That says:

    Kettle, Can someone double check me on that S&P 500 PE number…
    I see about 42 versions of S&P 500 PE out there in cyberspace. I think fwds are around 20 because analysts are obviously being rediculous but it definately looks like we’re over 120 on actuals. Right? or No?,3,2,2,0,0,0,0,0,1,7,0,0,0,0,0.html

  116. Painhrtz says:

    Ket I would have taken you as a SU-25 or Hind kind of guy. apperently you can get both for a song on the blackmarket. AN SU-25 was going for about the price of a pre-owned 3 series a few years ago

  117. HEHEHE says:

    Veto and Kettle,

    Isn’t it great knowing the economy is going to be so great in the near future…stock market being forward looking and everything.

  118. Stu says:

    Seneca (93):

    “Stu [70] – Was the inhalant being offered at school or via your local health dept?”

    He got it at his local pediatrician. We had them call us the moment doses came in. Me thinks there will be a major run on the stuff in the near future when nearly half the population is poopin’ and pukin’. If you all saw how it spread during the summer, I can only imagine how this sucker will explode when everyone starts coughing and hacking.

  119. james says:

    Com, Pain, thanks. If you see SAS on here ask him about UN Agenda 21 and the Copenhagen Treaty. I would appreciate his insight.

    Pain, I have a buddy in Bucks County PA. Ill take your advice.

  120. John says:

    I don’t need a gun, I just go all Steven Segal on you and grab it from you and karate chop you with it. Just need my guinna-T and some gell and I be beaten you Jersey boys like a rented mule.

  121. Veto That says:

    kettle, sweet, thanks.
    I guess a pe 145 is really a value if you consider that nasdaq hit 250 before crashing 90%.

  122. Kettle1 says:


    would love to pick up a hind next time i am wondering about in eastern europe. Couldnt pass up the MIG’s at the time. the price was right. even got the maintenance crew thrown in for free.

  123. HEHEHE says:

    That’s Belmar Johnny for you!!!

  124. HEHEHE says:

    The town may be getting a little to classy for you Belmar Johnny:

    Caroline Kennedy stumps for Corzine in Belmar

  125. Painhrtz says:

    Can never pass up aircraft ground crew that will work for Vodka.

    James family only with guns. Trusting friends with guns is like trusting a friend with money. Eventually you will never see both together again.

  126. Stu says:

    13-week 50-week Last market top Last market bottom
    Valuations and Yields 10/14 10/7 range range (7-13-2007) (3-9-2009)
    P/E (using 12-mo. est’d EPS) of DJ Industrials 16.1 15.6 14.5 – 16.1 11.7 – 26.8 16.1 17.3

  127. make money says:


    Can you talk all this smack staring at the barrel of a gun? I’ve seen a lot of people become religious during these moments.

  128. Veto That says:

    ok i think the 140 pe is ‘as reported’ with all the big bath one-time charges from banks. that makes me feel a little more at ease.

  129. Kettle1 says:


    now you know where my handle comes from!!! ;)

  130. Veto That says:

    basically, remove all the subprime losses from the S&P 500 as if they never happened and commence the rally.
    Next stop – S&P 2,000

  131. Painhrtz says:

    And here I just thought you liked to cook ; )

  132. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [128] james

    “If you see SAS on here ask him about UN Agenda 21 and the Copenhagen Treaty.”

    Treaties are easy things for presidents to sign, because they don’t bind the country to do anything.

    Here’s what will happen:

    1. Obama signs the treaty; base goes ga-ga, oppo goes nuts.
    2. Congress never gets around to ratifying the treaty.
    3. Furor dies down domestically
    4. Foreigners make polite inquiries; President gives them polite brush-off
    5 Rinse and repeat.

  133. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [129] john

    “I don’t need a gun, I just go all Steven Segal on you and grab it from you and karate chop you with it. Just need my guinna-T and some gell and I be beaten you Jersey boys like a rented mule.”

    That might work with me because I’ll be laughing too hard to fight back. So your best bet is to be funny.

    And don’t call me a Jersey boy! Ugh! Feh!

  134. John says:

    I am trying to buy a cool Jersey for my next Jets game. I can’t find an XFL HeHateMe Jersey anywhere.

  135. Painhrtz says:

    From threatening the bug O story

    Brek, his right eye twitching and dressed in an orange jail uniform, pleaded not guilty to charges of making terroristic threats, possessing a rifle stolen from Alabama and having hollow-point bullets.

    He is F’d

  136. Kettle1 says:

    IOU’s are all the rage!

    New York State Could Issue IOUs Before Year’s End

    If lawmakers fail to make major cuts, according to the state budget office, New York could essentially issue IOUs to local school districts, municipal governments, and non-for-profits that rely on state aid and reimbursements. The state is running a deficit of three billion dollars in 2009. Governor David Paterson’s office said that, if state lawmakers fail to cut the budget by that amount before the end of the year, the state will have to decide which bills it will not pay. “In all my years of government I have never seen anything this bad,” State Senator George Maziarz (R-Wheatfield) said. “And it’s only going to get worse.”

  137. Kettle1 says:


    …and having hollow-point bullets.

    ? hollow points are not illegal in NJ.

  138. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [134] pain

    James, listen to pain. Family only.

    And here is some more advice: Lock and key and plausible deniability.

    Why? If rellies are holding your guns, and some fed asks, do you want them to expose themselves to a false statement rap? No. Rather, you simply asked them to hold a locked chest for you, and they have no idea what is in it. So, if fed asks, are you holding for James, they can say “not to my knowledge.” And if the Fed senses evasion and pushes, your rellie gets exasperated and says “look, I am not aware of any guns, okay?” And if pushed further, rellie says “I don’t think I want to talk to you anymore.”

  139. Kettle1 says:

    fromm thr NJ state police

    Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

    N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

    (2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

    Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition “persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . .”
    N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

    Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

    1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
    2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
    3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
    4.A person going directly to an authorized place for “practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.”

  140. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [144] pain

    Yep. Hollows are illegal here, and he may be able to produce a bill of sale for the rifle, but his bargaining power went downhill by a lot. Unless the materials were planted, of course.

  141. Kettle1 says:


    the stupid thing is the hype of the deadly hollow point…. As i am sure you know hollow points are less effective against body armor then FMJ would be. They also represent less of a threat to bystanders as they are less likely to overpenetrate and more likely to break up on impact instead of richoceting.

  142. Kettle1 says:


    see my post at 148

  143. Kettle1 says:


    dont forget about the EFMJ round.

  144. maylook1day says:

    Stu #81 – thanks for the pep talk. i will continue to keep family, in-laws at bay and buy extra gifts for wife in mean-time.

  145. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [151] ket,

    I stand corrected, but that don’t mean you won’t get the smack laid down on you by some cop who writes it up and says tell it to the judge.

    By the time you beat it back, the bullets are already gone. Sue me, the state will say.

  146. Danzud says:

    #143 John, how about Cole Ford’s jersey?

  147. wallies says:

    Hi All-

    I tried to attend this auction today:
    (Morrisville, PA house – Featured on front page.)

    I explained to the auctioneer that I was there to be an audience and would not be bidding. This would be my first real-estate auction and I thought it would be an interesting experience. The auctioneer refused to let me in because I had not pre-registered and wasn’t going to bid. I don’t see that it is a private auction – it says the property must sell. I asked him if I called tomorrow would I be able to find out the starting bid and what the property sold for and he didn’t really give me an answer. I’m mad that I left work early for nothing. Is he allowed to kick me out? And is the results of the auction public record? If so, where can I find them?

    Any info is greatly appreciated!

  148. relo says:

    Here’s a place to park all your leftover LCTM and Solomon proceeds:

  149. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Methinks Ms. Romer is gonna get taken to the woodshed

    “Obama Adviser Sees Limited Future Impact of Stimulus

    WASHINGTON — One of President Obama’s top economic advisers warned on Thursday that the nation’s unemployment is likely to climb above 10 percent by the middle of next year and that job growth will remain anemic through the end of 2010.

    “Unemployment is likely to remain at its severely elevated level” through the end of next year, predicted Christina Romer, chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisors, at a hearing of the Joint Economic Committee of Congress.

    Ms. Romer said she agreed with private sector forecasters who expect that the economy will expand at a moderate pace through the end of next year as it slowly recovers from its deep recession.

    But she cautioned that unemployment usually recovers much more slowly than economic growth, and that the job creation has to make up for a great deal of lost ground from the last two years.

    And she warned that the rebound in jobs could actually be even slower than what White House officials and private forecasters are predicting. That was a sharp contrast to the Obama administration’s forecast at the start of the year, which predicted that unemployment would not climb much above 8 percent and was widely criticized as unrealistic and too optimistic.

    Ms. Romer noted that the Blue Chip survey of economic forecasters calls for unemployment to peak at 10.1 percent in the second quarter of 2010, up from 9.8 percent last month, and to be at 9.6 percent at the end of next year.

    Though Ms. Romer said economic conditions have improved dramatically in the last six months, and that the $787 billion stimulus program had contributed to that improvement, she said the rebound in jobs could actually be even slower than what White House officials currently expect.

    “There is a substantial range of uncertainty around any forecast,” she cautioned.

    Although the stimulus program will help the economy grow faster than it otherwise would have done, the effect of the stimulus will not be as pronounced as this year.

    In addition, she warned, American companies have registered big productivity gains during the recession, just as they did during the downturn in 2001, and employers may be even more restrained than usual about rebuilding their workforces.

    The economy has lost 7.2 million jobs since the recession began almost two years ago, and economists say it needs to produce about 100,000 jobs per month just to keep up with increases in the population. All told, Ms. Romer said, the United States is about 9 million jobs short of where it should be.”

  150. Barbara says:

    you understand that as this thing unravels, we will be portrayed as the carpet baggers, not the “smart money.”

  151. Kettle1 says:


    I do not disagree that the state/cops will do as they see fit and haul you into court on BS charges and that you end up screwed or just slightly screwed.

    Was just offering some info. I had a discussion with my local police about some “misconception” recently. It actually went very well and the detective was not defensive. of course i approached it as delicately as possible.

    have to work on getting the wife to hop into PA

  152. Kettle1 says:


    Re carpet baggers:

    Hence why you keep you assets as liquid as possible and in as safe a form as possible given our new “managed” economy while levering up with FHA and any other bailout the politicos want to throw at you. Then when it all blows up walk away and still have cash in your pocket.

  153. Barbara says:

    kettle – agreed

  154. lostinny says:

    7,000 unemployed Americans lose their lifeline every day

    Another day, another 7,000 people run out of unemployment benefits.

    One month after the House passed a bill extending unemployment benefits, the issue is still being debated in the Senate.

  155. Essex says:

    Look around you. This is a dream. The whole world’s inside it.

  156. Kettle1 says:


    The death of the second amendment is as simple as the encouraged abdication of personal responsibility.
    Ownership of forearms/weapons requires personal responsibility. Once the averge joe shuns personal responsibility and embraces the victim mentality of ” i was a victim of circumstances” you shift the 2nd amendment to a fringe aspect. This has already been done.

    Little Johny used to get a .22 for his 12th birthday. now you would go to jail for child endangerment. Now anyone who shows interest in firearms is immediately questioned for why they have such “fringe” interests.

    We lost, they won.

  157. james says:

    “Little Johny used to get a .22 for his 12th birthday. now you would go to jail for child endangerment.”

    Thats all part of demoralization. Theres an expert for everything. Make the people feel like they cant do anything for themselves. I agree. Accomplished long ago. You see once you understand the enemies tactics you know how best to beat them.

    For those who are wondering. Normalization refers to when the tanks roll in establishing “normalcy.” Think Eastern Europe in the 50’s.

  158. Sean says:

    Didn’t get a .22 but I did get a bb gun a a Red Ryder. The neighborhood was never the same after that.

  159. Bronx Bomber says:


    Barbara says:
    October 20, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    there’s another option. Put the 3.5% down for now and if things recover (big IF) and you want to loose the insurance, dip into your big savings and pay down the principal. You then apply to have the insurance lifted, I did this successfully three times in the 90s.

    two days late … good point.

    my only issue with the 3.5% down is that your mortgage payment is going to be large each month. and if you lose your job in 6 months … well, that large mortgage will be difficult to pay, unless you dip into that large DP you have.

    and if you’re unemployed for awhile, might it not feel like a slow death in a house that you think you could walk away from?

  160. Kettle1 says:


    If you want to play that strategy you have to go all the way.

    That means that the day you lose your job you stop making mortgage payments and bank every penny of that mortgage paymnet. Once the bank contacts you request a loan mod. If they refuse then fight the foreclosure and you have a good chance and being able to stay in the house for 1 – 2 years without making a payment before the sheriff shows up and forces you out.

    Thats 25 – 50K saved in the 1-2 year foreclosure process on top of what ever DP you kept as cash buy using the 3.5% FHA loan. you now have potentially 100K or more in cash and walk away from the house.

    Your credit gets hit, but for some people thst worth free rent fr 1 – 2 years and an extra 25 – 50K in the bank

  161. PGC says:

    Is 46 a fringe iterest or a normal collection.

    There was an interesting case in Hackensack recently where the guy was getting his gun shop license revoked for an outstanding Rhode Island moving violation.

    I don’t have a problem with guns, I just have an issue with some of the people that carry them and what they possess.

    In support of the second ammendment anyone can have a gun manufactured in a style that was available when the 2nd was written!

  162. Shore Guy says:

    Rut ro:

    from Reuters

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A Northwest Airlines flight carrying 144 passengers from San Diego to Minneapolis lost contact with air controllers for more than an hour and overflew its destination by 150 miles, officials said on Thursday.

    The National Transportation Safety Board said the two pilots of Flight 188, an Airbus A320, told authorities after landing safely on Wednesday night that they had become distracted during a “heated discussion about airline policy.”

    The NTSB said on Thursday it would review the plane’s flight data and voice recorders and interview the pilots. Among other issues, investigators will explore crew fatigue to see if the pilots were tired, the NTSB said.

    Northwest is owned by Delta Air Lines, which said the pilots had been relieved from active flying pending completion of the NTSB investigation and an internal probe by Delta.

    Safety board investigations can take several months to complete.

    The plane was flying at 37,000 feet when it lost radio contact between 8 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. EDT.

    Flight 188 was 150 miles off course by the time the crew re-established communications and requested permission to turn around, officials said.

    Airport police boarded the plane in Minneapolis to ensure there had not been a hijacking or other criminal activity, a spokesman for the Minneapolis-St Paul Airport said.

    Military authorities were alerted during the incident and put fighter jets on stand-by status temporarily, the North American Aerospace Defense Command said.

    It was the second unusual incident involving a U.S. airliner this week.

    On Monday, a Delta Boeing 767 with 182 passengers landed on a taxiway instead of its assigned runway at Atlanta’s Hartsfield airport.


  163. Outofstater says:

    Whoa. There are some zip codes in the Detroit area where one in every five houses is in foreclosure.

  164. Shore Guy says:

    From Lower Manhattan:

    NEW YORK (Reuters) – New York State’s highest court on Thursday ruled that the landlords of Manhattan’s largest apartment complex improperly raised thousands of rents, further pushing the owners of the $5.4 billion deal struck at the height of a commercial real estate boom toward default.

    The ruling is another blow to a property that already has seen much of its value evaporate during the downturn in the U.S. commercial real estate market.

    “I think everyone’s wiped out,” Dan Fasulo, managing director of real estate research firm Real Capital Analytics, said of the non-senior investors in the 2006 sale.

    The New York State Court of Appeals, in a ruling on a lawsuit filed by tenants, found that Tishman Speyer and BlackRock Realty Advisors, which bought the sprawling Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village complex in 2006, and original owner MetLife illegally converted rent-stabilized apartments into substantially more expensive market-rent units.

    Even before the court’s ruling Rob Speyer, president of Tishman Speyer, said the joint venture that bought the property would have to restructure the debt.

    “My guess is the borrowers take this thing into bankruptcy or threaten to if they don’t get a workout, which would mean most of the capital stack will convert to equity,” said an attorney who did not wish to be identified because his firm represents an investor in the deal.

  165. Shore Guy says:


  166. Shore Guy says:

    “There are some zip codes in the Detroit area where one in every five houses is in foreclosure. ”

    And those sre the stable neighborhoods.

  167. Kettle1 says:


    somone beat you to your idea

    Four-Year Old Buys House With Federal Money

  168. grim says:

    In support of the second ammendment anyone can have a gun manufactured in a style that was available when the 2nd was written!

    Aren’t some forms of musket ball illegal since they are over the .50 caliber limit put in place as part of the assault weapons ban?

  169. Shore Guy says:


    Are you going to the last tour show up in Buffalo?

  170. Shore Guy says:


    If the thing is in the kid’s name, what is the problem? What, the kid lacks the money to buy it outright? So do most adults. What is the difference if the money comes from an employer or a parent?

    For such reasons the feds had no business sticking their noses into propping up asset values.

  171. Sean says:

    re: #174 – shore

    This blog does an excellent job of covering StyTown. I go here for laughs after reading all the guns n ammo dicussions here.

    “loathe you space”

  172. Bronx Bomber says:

    way to show up tonight, Burnett …

  173. Shore Guy says:

    “then fight the foreclosure and you have a good chance and being able to stay in the house for 1 – 2 years without making a payment before the sheriff shows up and forces you out.”

    That is IF they can show they own the mortgage, given what we have seen some judges saying.

  174. Shore Guy says:


    You are a baseball fan, no?

  175. Shore Guy says:

    What the heck is happening with the Yankees? Yeesh!

  176. Kettle1 says:

    Question of the day……

    How on earth do we manage the fact that the the entitlements and pensions are completely unsustainable? They’ve been hollowed out so comprehensively, nothing but an egg-shell-thick patina remains.

    How is the population going to react when it’s told there’s no money for pensions, social securit, medicare, and medicaid?

    Yes we will devalue the $ until these liabilities are worth peanuts, but at some point ma and pa sixpack will catch on

  177. safeashouses says:

    I wonder when this will show up in other countries. Tax records and liquid assets of all Norwegians are released to the media by the government. It doesn’t show money and assets in tax shelters, but everything else is revealed.

  178. safeashouses says:

    #186 kettle1

    You give ma and pa sixpack too much credit. Plus them catching on would interfere with my future business to make people dumber and more pretentious.

  179. Morpheus says:


    “welcome to the desert of the real”

  180. Kettle1 says:

    2 observations based on recent business interactions I have had

    take it for what it is anecdata:

    1. Many small to mid-size business are either paying using IOUs or are extending payment terms from 30 to 45 days to 90 to 180 days. Some vendors to very large companies (GE, P&G, AMEX, Sears, BAC,etc ) have been waiting to be paid since early 2009! One worker for a large US corporation told me that they are refering vendors to use a “debt purchaser” for quicker payment of outstanding invoices. The debt purchaser charges about 15% of the invoice amount but pays the vendor almost immediately.

    2. Many Small businesses are on the brink of not making Payroll. This is largely because of buyers not paying on time, using IOUs or not paying the full amount due. Many Small business have been holding on to employees on the hope that business would pick up during the fall. Now that this is failing to happen they are laying off. Weekly Unemployment will likely rise sharply in November.

  181. sas says:

    “What the heck is happening with the Yankees?”

    ask those son a bit*hes how they paid for that stadium?

    u wanna talk about corruption?

    but who cares about that, go spankess.

  182. kettle1 says:

    Question # 2 of the day

    the derivatives market is worth 400 – 600 trillion ( global GDP is about 50 trillion)

    Given that a good majority of those derivatives are impossible to accuratly value and that they most likely DO NOT net out to 0, who eats it when they fall apart?

  183. NJGator says:

    Shore – this should give you some extra comfort about flying commercial:

    Jet overshoots Minn. airport by 150 miles
    Crew says they got distracted; officials investigating possible pilot fatigue

    MINNEAPOLIS – Two Northwest Airlines pilots failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.

    The plane landed safely Wednesday evening, apparently without passengers realizing that anything had been amiss. No one was hurt.

    The Federal Aviation Administration said the crew told authorities they became distracted during a heated discussion over airline policy and lost track of their location, but federal officials are investigating whether pilot fatigue might also have played a role.
    Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

    The National Transportation Safety Board does not yet know if the crew fell asleep, spokesman Keith Holloway said, calling that idea “speculative.”

  184. sas says:

    “Given that a good majority of those derivatives are impossible to accuratly value and that they most likely DO NOT net out to 0, who eats it when they fall apart?”

    i can answer that.
    not in great detail. Maybe when I’m more awake I’ll give out details.

    but, you can boil it down in the same sense as when that knucklehead Cheny said “deficits don’t matter”.

    remember my post that other night?

    u go around extract money, consolidate, buy off, blackmail, or intmidate everyone off, and have a strong military to dictate might & trade policy.

    nothing new.

  185. sas says:

    “everyone off”

    politicans & competition.


  186. kettle1 says:


    We dont have that much in the way of militray might if china got a few friends together.

    Our blue water navy is highly vulnerbale to modern supersonic antiship weaponry.

    our “steel” capital is rapidly running out

  187. sas says:

    “militray might”

    think outside the box. not in traditional terms.

    the grid has been in place for sometime.
    not to say bad things can’t happen, and we won’t be challenged.

    Everything happens underground, not in the literal sense.

    ex. remember my telecommunications story? the higher I climbed when I worked in tele, the more I learned that you didn’t know where the company ended the the govt goons ops began.
    They tap, have links, & code to everything.

    another example, pipelines & trade routes: govt owned, operated, and protected. Some Columbian wants access, you better play ball, and pay your cut.

    Thats why we got a tango down in Mexico, the rogues are getting brave, and giving the one finger soda bottle.

    well, military out a stop to that real quick.

    THe list goes on and on…

    but the question I’ve always wanted to know, not who pays the bill… but where do the profits all go??


  188. sas says:

    the military as you know it, no longer exists. Operations are being done behind curtains, covertly.

    another question to ask? to whome then does the military own alligance to & protect? the american people, or the ones who own & operate the “supply matrix”


  189. Qwerty says:

    RE: “frenchdoor fridge with icemaker/water thru door”

  190. Shore Guy says:


    It has happened before, in Hawaii two or three years ago — the crew fell asleep.

  191. Shore Guy says:


    It has happened before, in Hawaii two or three years ago — the crew fell asleep.

  192. Shore Guy says:

    It is a real downside to locked and reinforced c0ckpit doors.

  193. Morpheus says:

    so true.

  194. Extitly says:

    What’s the difference? The iPhone is so pricy, and now the 3g is so much cheaper.

    [url=]unlock iphone 3g[/url]

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