Property tax rebate fraud? I’m shocked!

From the AP:

Audit exposes NJ property tax program flaws

Lax oversight, confusing rules and potential fraud have combined to cost New Jersey millions each year in rebates and tax deductions given to homeowners who may not qualify for them, according to a recently released state audit.

For years the state has offered rebate programs and tax breaks to seniors and disabled homeowners in the form of checks that are usually mailed out in the fall — just in time for November elections.

But a new report by the State Auditor found that the Division of Taxation, which oversees the programs, and municipalities failed to cross-check records or demand proof from homeowners to make sure they qualify for the programs.

In 2007, the year examined by the auditor, the two programs paid out more than a quarter billion dollars.

“We’re kind of taking people at their word,” said Acting State Auditor Stephen Eells, “and there are improper payments going out.”

In 2007, the average “freeze” rebate checks averaged $958, according to the Treasury Department. That year, 154,600 senior and disabled homeowners received “senior freeze” rebates totaling $165 million.

A random sample found that 6,000 homeowners who received the rebates were younger than 65, according to federal records. Of those, 405 receiving $318,000 in rebates weren’t receiving social security benefits, indicating that they weren’t as old as they claimed.

The audit also found sloppy accounting; some homeowners who claimed disabilities were listed instead as over 65. And it found that many — nearly 1,250 homeowners who received a total of $1.3 million in rebates — claimed they made less than $60,000 a year while a cross-check against federal tax forms showed they made too much to qualify.

A look at everyone — 362,000 homeowners — who received the $250 credit in 2007 found 9,162 cases where, according to tax records, homeowners made more than the threshold. That cost the state $2.3 million in lost revenue.

Former Bogota mayor Steve Lonegan, who ran against Christie in the GOP gubernatorial primary, has long been opposed to the rebate program, calling it a form of “income redistribution.”

He wasn’t surprised to hear that unqualified homeowners were cashing in on it.

“What they really need to do is eliminate the program and cut everyone’s taxes across the board,” he said. “It’s too complex, too costly to administer, too subject to political manipulation. It’s a failed program.”

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735 Responses to Property tax rebate fraud? I’m shocked!

  1. Cindy says:

    I’m shocked!

    Shocked I’m Frist!

  2. Cindy says:

    Darn Kettle, I thought I was first for once. How have you been? We haven’t have a full-on conversation in a million years.

  3. Jim says:

    No need to be shocked Cindy. You appear to be second.

  4. Jim says:

    BoA sucks! I’ve also had problems with them. They never did that to me though.

  5. Cindy says:

    4. Yeah – Thanks Jim. Got that. How did I mess up by four minutes? Ask anyone here, time calculations are not my forte.

  6. Mr Hyde says:


    Doing just peachy. I have been a little preoccupied with other tasks as of late. Sorry i stole your thunder.

    Hows the wonderful world of California treating you? Enjoying the descent so far ;)

  7. Mr Hyde says:

    You know a system is broken when you see comments like this from the article

    Citi-Residential started the foreclosure process on a home in Kissimmee in 2008 — changing the locks and emptying the pool — even though the owner, who lives in London, didn’t have a mortgage with the company, according to a report by Orlando TV station WFTV. Company officials said the high number of foreclosures they were dealing with in Central Florida contributed to the error.

  8. Essex says:

    1. Blood boiling now. See? My outrage is fed for the day.

  9. Mr Hyde says:

    We need some chlorine in the american gene pool….

    School mistakes huge burrito for a weapon

  10. freedy says:

    you know the system is broken when you
    call the bank’s 800 # and your speaking with
    an India citizen, who’s trained on how to
    handle the poor, stupid, uninformed american.

  11. Essex says:

    10. Dude I don’t even wanna read the story….one word: COLUMBINE.

    When you are charged with the welfare of the young I think you can be a little over-careful.

    Besides, once a 7-11 burrito hits my lower intestine it is like a bomb.

  12. grim says:

    Dude I don’t even wanna read the story…

    Read it.

    The kid’s burrito idea is actually pretty good. I hope it gets him some exposure and maybe even a shot at starting a business. More original idea than anything that’s come out of John Schnatter.

    In this fat, gluttonous society, that is EXACTLY the kind of product that would fly.

    I’d invest in it.

    Even got the storyline for their first commercial, kid with huge burrito scares the hell out of a small town. Sets it down on the lunch table, unwraps, the crowd pauses…gasps, kid gets the cheerleaders *AND* the girls gymnastic team. Works on so many levels.

  13. Cindy says:

    #7 Kettle – “How’s the wonderful world of California treating you?”

    I’m waiting around to hear about the furlough days and possible pay cuts…

    Meanwhile,…CA furloughs Franchise Tax Board employees and it cost them $7 for every $1 saved.

  14. Pat says:

    They’re talking about MY burrito.

  15. Cindy says:

    “Obama signs bill Friday reinstating budget rules known as “paygo”…

    Oh wait…

    “But the bill signed Friday also lifted the cap on the money the U.S. can borrow by $1.9 trillion – to a total of $14.3 trillion. The ceiling was lifted from $12.4 trillion to keep the U.S. from going into default.”

  16. Mr Hyde says:

    Re 1

    It seems to me that BOA have to have lied on legal documents in order to foreclose on that home that they did not hold title to.

    I am wondering if they told the court they lost the title and filed the appropriate documentation with the court.

    Shouldn’t there be criminal action against BOA or it representatives for making false legal claims?

    If we held the banks to any legal standard there is no way they could foreclose on a large % of they properties that are delinquent simply because they were too sloppy during the housing frenzy and because these mortgages are so sliced and diced by securitization.

  17. Cindy says:

    “Where’s Housing Headed? Follow Rents”

    “From 1999 to 2007 apartment rents increased only 32%. But home prices jumped more than three times as fast, around 105%.”

    I bought in 1999 and the prices were just starting to heat up here.

  18. gary says:

    “I think prices in New Jersey will stabilize and trend upward slightly over the rest of the year, primarily because the economic environment looks to be improving,” O’Keefe said.

    Now you know why this guy is a realtor and not a surgeon at a pediatric facility.

  19. Cindy says:

    “Wackiest Tax Deductions for 2010”

    Steer? What’s a steer?

  20. gary says:

    Basically, these guys like this f*cking yahoo in my last post fail to understand that there aren’t any jobs… or careers… or long term strategies. You take what’s there, which isn’t much. It’s all a series of mish mosh temp jobs at reduced costs with no benefits and truly sh1tty treatment by the few that still have benefits because they couldn’t give a f*ck if you drop dead.

    I’ll say it again: within 5 to 10 years, no one in the private sector will have any benefits whatsoever. It will all be a bunch of “contract” jobs and zillions of people will shuffle from one job to the other without a plan. It’s the equivalent of a squatter looking for a comfortable place to sleep night after noght.

  21. Cindy says:

    Wait! I think I found a group with job security…

    “Congressional Lobbyist Spending Rose to $$3.47 Billion in 2009″

    Expenses grew by 5%…”Lobbying appears recession proof….”

  22. Essex says:

    13. Geezus Grim. You need to be on Madison Avenue.

  23. Schumpeter says:

    Somebody just tell me when to lock & load.

    I’m ready to march.

  24. Schumpeter says:

    The Nat’l Guard won’t turn on us and won’t obey orders to fire.

  25. Outofstater says:

    Can New Jersey Reverse Course?
    Interesting 76 page study of NJ’s financial situation and how it went so wrong over so many years. It’s from July 2009 but I just found it yesterday.

  26. gary says:

    Business bad? F–k you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? F–k you, pay me. The place got hit by lightning, huh? F–k you, pay me. Also, Paulie could do anything. Especially run up bills on the joint’s credit. And why not? Nobody’s gonna pay for it anyway. And as soon as the deliveries are made in the front door, you move the stuff out the back and sell it at a discount. You take a two hundred dollar case of booze and you sell it for a hundred. It doesn’t matter. It’s all profit. And then finally, when there’s nothing left, when you can’t borrow another buck from the bank or buy another case of booze, you bust the joint out. You light a match.

  27. gary says:


    Obtain gold in tenth ounce increments; somebody has got to make change, correct?

  28. Outofstater says:

    #9 Me too!

  29. Mr Hyde says:


    Actually, the NG probably will fire on you at first. They will only hesitate if the have to keep shooting assuming people dont disperse immediatly

  30. Essex says:

    5.B. The Pension System
    New Jersey has also relied on accounting tactics to mask increasing state
    obligations and provide local governments with property tax relief. The most
    dramatic example of this is found in how the state has managed its public
    pension system in the last two decades.
    New Jersey’s pension fund faces potential $34 billion unfunded liability (up from
    $18 billion in 2006), which rises to $130 billion when post‐retirement medical and prescription drug benefits and stock market losses are factored in. Until recently New Jersey’s pension system was considered sound. In 2000 the plan was funded at 111.4 percent (the ratio of valuation assets to accrued liabilities) with a market value of $85.8 billion. Today it is funded at 50 percent.
    Like many states, New Jersey expanded its pension system during the 1990s
    when the stock market was booming. In addition to benefit expansions, New
    Jersey’s pension system was weakened by changes in the methodology used to
    value the fund, and the granting of “pension holidays” to state and local
    governments.48 Pension holidays allowed state and local government employers
    to defer contributions to the pension system between 1997 and 2003.

  31. Essex says:

    35. Why do the greats always die young?

  32. leftwing says:

    From yesterday:

    “China’s Project to Build Fast Trains Is Spurring Growth – NYT”

    All I see in that article is that the growth being spurred is growth in building high speed train lines.

    One could say the same thing about anything being funded, i.e. the bridge to nowhere spurred growth (growth in building bridges in outer parts of Alaska).

    Moreover, actually reading the article rather than just headline, China had a unique set of circumstances (severe shortage of available track to move material) that required massive train line construction for commuters, so they went high speed.

    Similar conditions do not exist here in the US.

    Poorly written article with a specious argument and little relevance to the US.

  33. House Whine says:

    21- Gary. Well that is not a rosy picture but I don’t disagree. It is really hard to live like that, day to day, unable to plan for the future. Such job insecurity will not give Americans the confidence that it necessary to make long term investments. We are battening down the hatches in our household to prepare. But there is only so much you can do and only so much you can cut back on.

  34. plg says:


    I agree with your analysis. Things do not look good for the US worker. It is all the more reason why healthcare reform is necessary. If workers will have no benefits, we need to figure out a way to maintain some basic level of healthcare coverage for the population.

    It also more reason to promote unionization. It is the only protection US workers will have against multi-national corporations grinding down wages and benefits while increasing profits. A certain share of those profits need to go to workers.

  35. 3b says:

    I post this in memory of my Father in Law. Goodbye Dad.

  36. plg says:


    Your post at 37 is odd. What is the “specious argument” in that article?

    It is a news article discussing the Chinese rail projects. I didn’t pick up an “argument” in the article. It discusses the differences between China and the US.

    What do you see that “specious argument” and where is that in the article?

  37. leftwing says:


    Sorry, I was unclear.

    The article was poorly written.

    YOUR argument was specious.

  38. House Whine says:

    40- Beautiful. God Bless.

  39. Cindy says:

    40 3b – What a wonderful farewell. That you call him Dad says so much. He was loved.

  40. Justin says:

    Nice to see Mancini letting the hard working players on the pitch instead pure skill players. Let’s go Ireland and Wright-Phillips, Go City!

  41. Schumpeter says:

    Justin (45)-

    Mancini will get that team right. The pretty boys will be shown the door, and they will keep adding pace and power.

    Andy Johnson is the truth.

  42. Mr Hyde says:

    I think we all need to acknowledge plg.

    Since this poster showed up he his arguments have been refuted by a group of poster who usually have disparate points of view and readily debate each other. This one individual has managed to create a relatively untied front in shooting down their posts.

    I have been on this blog for 4+ years and have not seen that in my time here before plg showed up.

  43. Outofstater says:

    #40 It brought me to tears. Thank you for posting that and God bless Dad.

  44. chicagofinance says:

    ket: to that point….

    WSJ Editorial
    FEBRUARY 13, 2010

    Escape from Taxation

    A new study shows that wealth flees after taxes rise.

    New Jersey’s Governor Chris Christie must be following the economic news from Greece. Its tattered reputation for fiscal control has turned Greece into an international financial nightmare and laughingstock. Perhaps tiring of New Jersey jokes, Governor Christie this week handed down a stiff freeze on spending.

    Announcing the freeze on $1.6 billion of unspent money, Mr. Christie was blunt: “Today, we come to terms with the fact that we cannot spend money on everything we want. Today, the days of Alice in Wonderland budgeting in Trenton end.”

    Not a day too soon, judging from the striking data that a just-released study reveals about the number of residents of the Garden State fleeing to greener pastures.

    The study by Boston College’s Center on Wealth and Philanthropy—”Migration of Wealth in New Jersey and the Impact on Wealth and Philanthropy”—looked at 1999 to 2008. It found that in the decade’s first half New Jersey experienced a “substantial increase in both household wealth and charitable capacity,” otherwise known as “expected giving.” During those five years the Garden State had a $98 billion net influx of capital due to wealthy households moving into the state, and it enjoyed a corresponding $881 million increase in “charitable capacity.”

    The Garden State was blooming. Then the trend reversed. From 2004-2008, author John Havens found “a large decline in the number of wealthy households entering New Jersey” as well as “a moderate increase in the outflow of wealthy households leaving.” The result: a net decline of $70 billion in household wealth while the “expected giving” became a net outflow of $1.132 billion.

    So what happened in 2004? The study doesn’t purport to explain what caused the wealth movements. But the state’s most notable economic policy event that year was an increase in its top income tax rate to 8.97% from 6.37%, on incomes starting at $500,000. That’s a 40% increase.

    The state Chamber of Commerce commissioned the study with the Community Foundation, and Chamber Chairman Dennis Bone says it is “crystal clear that the state’s tax policies are resulting in a significant decline in the state’s wealth.” New Jersey’s estate tax, which kicks in at 2.5% on assets of as little as $675,000, goes up to 16% on assets over $10 million.

    The study found that the state’s out-migration from 2004-2008 went primarily to New York and Pennsylvania, both of which have lower top tax rates. But the third most popular destination was Florida, which has no income tax and no estate tax. The Sunshine State received 17% of the households, 20% of the capital flight and 37% of the charitable capacity that left New Jersey.

    As to the less-robust “in-migration,” the study finds that people who are moving to New Jersey aren’t as wealthy as those leaving. This has a large effect on charitable giving. “Statistically the relationship between the value of assets and the amount of charitable giving is roughly seven times stronger than the relationship between the level of income and the amount of charitable contributions,” Mr. Havens writes.

    The number of wealthy households coming from New York, for example, “declined by half, their average wealth declined by half, their aggregate wealth declined by 75% and their expected giving declined by 70%.” In other words, by soaking “the rich” with high taxes, liberals end up harming the charities that benefit from rich donors.

    The nearby table shows the upward march in taxation in New Jersey, which was once a fast-growing state but has now joined California and New York as high-tax, high-debt states with budget crises. As Jim Hughes, dean of the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers, told recently, until the tax picture is improved, “we’ll probably see a continuation of the trend, until there are no more high-wealth individuals left.”

    Last year, Democrats raised the top rate for one year to 10.75%. This year New Jersyans elected Chris Christie.

    Without economic growth, New Jersey will wither. Mr. Christie knows that. He is smart to enact this freeze using his executive authority while he has the public’s support to act. And before the pols in Trenton push the state back in the direction of Greece.

    Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page A12

  45. chicagofinance says:

    plg…reread and then let us reiterate our charge of “naivete”….or some of the less diplomatic may say otherwise…

    In other words, by soaking “the rich” with high taxes, liberals end up harming the charities that benefit from rich donors.

  46. chicagofinance says:

    ket: hence my suspicion we are being trolled…further, we already have a party out there who participates under multiple identities…this one could be the latest iteration…

    47.Mr Hyde says:
    February 13, 2010 at 1:26 pm
    I think we all need to acknowledge plg.

    Since this poster showed up he his arguments have been refuted by a group of poster who usually have disparate points of view and readily debate each other. This one individual has managed to create a relatively untied front in shooting down their posts.

    I have been on this blog for 4+ years and have not seen that in my time here before plg showed up.

  47. chicagofinance says:

    Example of “fascism”: Some grumble about Big Brother: “It’s like, ‘We’re going to find a way to make sure you do this the way we want you to,’ ” says Robert Greenlee, a former mayor.

    Example of “unintended consequences”: By the end of 2008, emissions here were 27% higher than 1990 levels. That’s a worse showing than the U.S. as a whole, where emissions rose 15% during that period, according to the Department of Energy.

    Example of “hypocrisy”:One problem: People don’t want to give up gadgets. Recently, Prof. Pielke taught a seminar on energy demand. The university had installed motion-detector lights that shut off when the room is vacant to save energy. But when he asked his 17 students to lay all their iPods, cellphones and laptops on their desks, they had 42 electronic devices among them. Powering those up, he said, negated any conservation value from the fancy lights.

    U.S. NEWS
    FEBRUARY 13, 2010
    Even Boulder Finds It Isn’t Easy Going Green


    BOULDER, Colo.—This spring, city contractors will fan out across this well-to-do college town to unscrew light bulbs in thousands of homes and replace them with more energy-efficient models, at taxpayer expense.

    City officials never dreamed they’d have to play nanny when they set out in 2006 to make Boulder a role model in the fight against global warming. The cause seemed like a natural fit in a place where residents tend to be politically liberal and passionate about the great outdoors.

    Instead, as Congress considers how to encourage Americans to conserve more energy, Boulder stands as a cautionary tale about the limits of good intentions.

    “What we’ve found is that for the vast majority of people, it’s exceedingly difficult to get them to do much of anything,” says Kevin Doran, a senior research fellow at the University of Colorado at Boulder.

    President Barack Obama has set ambitious goals for cutting greenhouse-gas emissions, in part by improving energy efficiency. Last year’s stimulus bill set aside billions to weatherize buildings. The president has also called for a “cash for caulkers” rebate for Americans who weatherize their homes.

    But Boulder has found that financial incentives and an intense publicity campaign aren’t enough to spur most homeowners to action, even in a city so environmentally conscious that the college football stadium won’t sell potato chips because the packaging isn’t recyclable.

    Take George Karakehian. He considers himself quite green: He drives a hybrid, recycles, uses energy-efficient compact fluorescent bulbs. But he refuses to practice the most basic of conservation measures: Shutting the doors to his downtown art gallery when his heating or air conditioning is running.

    Mr. Karakehian knows he’s wasting energy. He doesn’t care.

    “I’m old-school,” Mr. Karakehian says. “I’ve always been taught that an open door is the way to invite people in.”

    He’s not alone in ignoring the call to arms.

    Since 2006, Boulder has subsidized about 750 home energy audits. Even after the subsidy, the audits cost each homeowner up to $200, so only the most committed signed up. Still, follow-up surveys found half didn’t implement even the simplest recommendations, despite incentives such as discounts on energy-efficient bulbs and rebates for attic insulation.

    About 75 businesses got free audits; they made so few changes that they collectively saved just one-fifth of the energy auditors estimated they were wasting.

    “We still have a long way to go,” says Paul Sheldon, a consultant who advises the city on conservation.

    Residents “should be driving high-efficiency vehicles, and they’re not. They should be carpooling, and they’re not.” And yes, he adds, they should be changing their own light bulbs—and they’re not.

    The science behind climate change has taken hits of late. Authors of a landmark 2007 report on global warming have admitted to some errors in their work, though they stand by their conclusion that climate change is “unequivocal” and is “very likely” due to human activity, such as burning fossil fuels for energy. British climate scientists have also come under fire after their hacked email correspondence seemed to indicate they tried to squelch dissenting views.

    Here in Boulder, some climate-change skeptics have become more vocal about their doubts in public and in online forums. But for the most part, those working on the energy-efficiency plan say the public still backs it. The hitch is in getting residents to move from philosophical support to concrete action. As Mr. Sheldon put it, until his neighbors all decide, ” ‘We’re doing this!’… the city will be pushing a rope uphill.”

    A city of 100,000, tucked up against the Rocky Mountains, Boulder has a proud history of environmentalism. It was one of the first to levy a tax to protect open space. Residents bike to work at 20 times the national average.

    In 2006, Boulder voters approved the nation’s first “carbon tax,” now $21 a year per household, to fund energy-conservation programs. The city took out print ads, bought radio time, sent email alerts and promoted the campaign in city newsletters.

    But Boulder’s carbon emissions edged down less than 1% from 2006 through 2008, the most recent data available.

    By the end of 2008, emissions here were 27% higher than 1990 levels. That’s a worse showing than the U.S. as a whole, where emissions rose 15% during that period, according to the Department of Energy.

    “If a place like Boulder that regards itself as being in the environmental forefront has such a tough time, these types of efforts are not going to work as a core policy” for the nation, says Roger Pielke Jr., who studies the political response to climate change at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

    One problem: People don’t want to give up gadgets. Recently, Prof. Pielke taught a seminar on energy demand. The university had installed motion-detector lights that shut off when the room is vacant to save energy. But when he asked his 17 students to lay all their iPods, cellphones and laptops on their desks, they had 42 electronic devices among them. Powering those up, he said, negated any conservation value from the fancy lights.

    A local home-theater installer says most customers purchase a power strip, so they can turn off the outlet when they’re not watching. But during the Christmas holidays, 65-inch flat-screen TVs flew off the shelves of Boulder’s ListenUp Audio/Video. “People are definitely going for bigger screens,” manager Bob Murphy says.

    City officials are frustrated—and contemplating more forceful steps.

    The City Council will soon consider mandating energy-efficiency upgrades to many apartments and businesses. The proposals under review would be among the most aggressive in the nation, requiring up to $4,000 a rental unit in new appliances, windows and other improvements. Owners of commercial property could face far larger tabs.

    The goal: to spur $650 million in private investment in efficiencies over the next three years.

    “Everyone needs to do something,” says Councilman Matthew Appelbaum.

    Boulder depends almost entirely for energy on a coal-powered plant. The city is encouraging homeowners to make efficiency upgrades.

    Unless the city does it for them.

    Recognizing that, as Mr. Appelbaum puts it, “it’s a real pain to do all that work,” Boulder plans to spend about $1.5 million in city funds and $370,000 in federal stimulus money to hire contractors to do basic upgrades for residents.

    In the program, dubbed “Two Techs in a Truck,” as many as 15 energy-efficiency teams will go door-to-door. They’ll ask home and business owners for permission to caulk windows, change bulbs and install low-flow showerheads and programmable thermostats—all at taxpayer expense. The techs will set up clothes racks in laundry rooms as a reminder to use the dryer less often. They’ll even pop into the garage and inflate tires to the optimum pressure for fuel efficiency.

    If they spot the need for bigger projects, such as insulation or a new furnace, the techs will help homeowners make appointments and apply for rebates.

    Some grumble about Big Brother: “It’s like, ‘We’re going to find a way to make sure you do this the way we want you to,’ ” says Robert Greenlee, a former mayor.

    City officials say most residents want to make these changes; they just never seem to get around to it. In a test run in a lower-income Boulder neighborhood, nearly 70% of homeowners accepted the free upgrades. “We want to take away the financial barrier and the hassle barrier,” said Kara Mertz, the city’s local environmental action manager. That may not be enough.

    Kathie Joyner, an environmental planner, was one of the first to get a city-subsidized home-energy audit, back in 2006. She eagerly trailed the auditor through her modest bungalow, watching as he pointed out leaks and inefficiencies. He promised she could slash her utility bills by a third.

    Ms. Joyner vowed to get to work. But tackling the whole list would have cost $4,000. She ended up spending less than $1,000, mostly on insulation and weather-stripping. The rest of the advice, she set aside. “It just kind of went out of my brain,” she says.

    Three years later, Ms. Joyner says she hasn’t noticed lower energy bills, in part because of rising rates and fluctuations in her electricity use depending on the weather. Frustrated, she says she isn’t sure her investment paid off, either for her pocketbook or the planet. That discouraged her from spending more on the project. “That’s the big disconnect for most of us,” she says. “It’s all very squishy. We’re not really sure if it matters.”

    Among the most successful of Boulder’s green initiatives, as measured by participation, is a program under which residents pay the local utility a premium—up to about $25 a month—to support wind power. That requires no effort beyond opening a checkbook. About 5,500 households participate.

    By comparison, just 45 businesses committed to cut their energy use by 10% within a year, a pledge requiring more active steps. The city estimates those businesses will cut greenhouse-gas emissions by a total of 17,000 metric tons of carbon-dioxide equivalent. That’s approximately the amount of carbon dioxide that 3,100 average U.S. cars emit in a year. Sending two techs in a truck to do the work for other, less-motivated businesses will reduce emissions far more—an estimated 88,000 tons—but at far greater taxpayer expense.

    Relying on voluntary action is “slow to show significant results,” the city concluded in a report last fall that called for stepped-up regulation.

    James W.C. White, an environmental studies professor at the University of Colorado, says the city deserves credit for trying to push energy efficiencies. “It’s always hard being out in front,” he says, “but somebody’s got to lead.”

    The city aims to overcome public inertia with a fresh advertising approach. Instead of talking about environmental benefits, new promotions will focus on financial benefits: Save energy, save money.

    But there are signs Boulder’s efforts are starting to lose favor. Voters county-wide last fall rejected a measure that would have doubled a public fund set up to give homeowners low-interest loans for efficiency upgrades, such as a new furnace.

    In the same November election, city voters elected to the council several newcomers eager to moderate Boulder’s aggressive environmentalism.

    Among the newly elected: Mr. Karakehian, the gallery owner who insists on keeping his front door open. He is concerned about the city mandating conservation and says his constituents agree.

    “My phone has been ringing off the hook,” he says. “I’ve had a lot of people talk to me. Not happy people. Maybe we’ve bit off more than we can chew.”

    There are, of course, true believers in Boulder. Councilman Macon Cowles, who won re-election last fall, almost never drives, has stopped heating his pool and just re-insulated his home. The Shanahan neighborhood in Boulder offers “solar tours” of local photovoltaic panels. Two years ago, just a dozen homes there had solar. Now, nearly 50 do.

    Jeff Hohensee, a sustainability consultant, invested $125,000 in home-energy upgrades—though with rebates, his cost was $35,000—so his home uses only as much energy as solar panels on his roof produce. To spur neighbors to follow suit, he suggests the city measure every home’s carbon footprint and publicize the results.

    City officials aren’t willing to go that far. But they are hoping to leverage peer pressure. They plan to post congratulatory signs outside homes that have let the “two techs in a truck” change the light bulbs. They’ll offer prizes to churches and schools that get commitments from, say, 100 families to insulate their attics. They’ll host energy-efficiency block parties and plan to hire a consultant to create a conservation buzz on Facebook and Twitter.

    Even if residents implement every possible efficiency, it will take Boulder only part of the way toward its goal of slashing emissions of the pollutants linked to global warming.

    More than 1,000 U.S. cities have pledged to make such cuts, yet analysts say most are stymied—in part because it’s extremely difficult to reduce emissions without a wholesale switch to renewable energy sources. Boulder depends almost entirely for energy on a coal-powered plant.

    Jonathan Koehn, the city’s regional sustainability coordinator, feels the pressure keenly.

    “People say, ‘It’s Boulder! Kooky Boulder! Of course you can do it,'” he says, and sighs. “Not necessarily.”

    Write to Stephanie Simon at

  48. chicagofinance says:

    The general theme is very similar to NJ, but the details are different. NJ is a disfunctional economy as well….

    FEBRUARY 13, 2010
    The Greek Tragedy That Changed Europe
    Greece’s dysfunctional economy is now at the heart of a rescue effort that could be disastrous for the entire continent—and the rest of the world.


    Plutus, the Greek god of wealth, did not have an easy life. As the myth goes, Plutus wanted to grant riches only to the “the just, the wise, the men of ordered life.” Zeus blinded him out of jealousy of mankind (and envy of the good), leaving Plutus to indiscriminately distribute his favors.

    Modern-day Greece may be just and wise, but it certainly has not had an ordered life. As a result, the great opportunity and wealth bestowed by European integration has been largely squandered. And lower interest rates over the past decade—brought down to German levels through Greece being allowed, rather generously, into the euro zone—led to little more than further deficits and a dangerous buildup of government debt.

    Now Plutus wants his money back. Europe is entering unprepared into a serious economic crisis—and the nascent global recovery could easily collapse due to the unsustainable and Ponzi-like buildup of government debt in weaker countries.

    At the end of the G7 meeting in Canada last weekend, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner told reporters, “I just want to underscore they made it clear to us—they, the European authorities—that they will manage this [Greek debt crisis] with great care.”

    But the Europeans have not been careful so far. The issues for troubled euro zone countries are straightforward: Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain (known to the financial markets, and not in a polite way, as the PIIGS) had varying degrees of foreign- and bank credit-financed rapid expansions over the past decade. In fall 2008, these bubbles collapsed.

    As custodian of their shared currency, the European Central Bank responded by quietly opening lifelines to all these countries, effectively buying government bonds through special credit windows. Europe’s periphery was fragile but surviving on this intravenous line of credit from the ECB until a few weeks ago, when it suddenly became apparent that Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the ECB, and his German backers were finally lining up to cut Greece off from that implicit subsidy. The Germans have become tired of supporting countries that do not, to their minds, try hard enough. Investors naturally flew from Greek debt—Greece’s debt yields rose, and its banking system verged near collapse as investors and savers ran from the country.

    But it’s not just about Greece any more. Thursday’s European Union summit ended with vague assurances of mutual support but did not fundamentally change the financial markets’ assessment. Other countries can also be cut off from easy ECB funding, so worries have spread through the euro zone to Spain and Portugal. Ireland and Italy are also up for hostile reconsideration by the markets, and Austria and Belgium may not be far behind. If these problems are not addressed quickly and effectively, Europe’s economy will be derailed—with serious, if hard to quantify, implications for the rest of the world.

    Germany and France are cooking up a belated support package for Greece, but they have made it abundantly clear that Greece must slash public sector wages and other spending; the Greek trade unions get this and are in the streets. If Greece (and the other troubled countries) still had their own currencies, it would all be a lot easier. Just as in the U.K. since 2008, their exchange rates would depreciate sharply. This would lower the cost of labor, making them competitive again (remember Asia after 1997-’98) while also inflating asset prices and helping to refloat borrowers who are underwater on their mortgages and other debts. It would undoubtedly hurt the Germans and the French, who would suffer from less competitiveness—but when you are in deep trouble, who cares?

    Since these struggling countries share the euro, run by the European Central Bank in Frankfurt, their currencies cannot fall in this fashion. So they are left with the need to massively curtail demand, lower wages and reduce the public sector workforce. The last time we saw this kind of precipitate fiscal austerity—when nations were tied to the gold standard—it contributed directly to the onset of the Great Depression in the 1930s.

    The International Monetary Fund is supposed to lend to countries in trouble, to cushion the blow of crisis and to offer a form of international circuit breaker when everything looks fragile. The idea is not to prevent necessary adjustments—for example, in the form of budget deficit reduction—but to spread those out over time, to restore confidence, and to serve as an external seal of approval on a government’s credibility.

    Despite the fact that the IMF was created after World War II essentially as a U.S.-Western European partnership, and despite the fact that Europe has strong representation at the fund and has always chosen its top leader, in this instance the fund has been reduced to not-entirely-helpful kibitzing from the sidelines.

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the fund’s managing director, said recently on French radio that the fund stands ready to help Greece. But he knows this is wishful thinking.

    “Going to the IMF” brings with it a great deal of stigma; just ask the Asian countries that had to borrow from the fund during their crises of the 1990s. And many in Europe view the fund as an American-influenced institution—located three blocks from the White House for a reason—that would be invading Europe’s territory.

    In addition, French President Nicolas Sarkozy has serious personal reasons to push the IMF away. Mr. Strauss-Kahn is a serious potential challenger in France’s upcoming elections; Mr. Sarkozy would hate to see the IMF play a statesman-like role on his home turf.

    Chancellor Angela Merkel, currently maneuvering to ensure a German is the next head at the ECB, is also concerned. The IMF might take the position that ECB policies have been overly contractionary—resulting in a strong euro and very low inflation—and not appropriate for member countries in the midst of a financial collapse. If the IMF were to support Europe’s weaker economies, this would challenge the prevailing ideology among Frankfurt-dominated policy makers.

    Nations outside Europe, such as the U.S., are naturally reluctant to get involved. Sending Greece to the IMF would result in some international “burden sharing,” as it would be IMF resources, from its member countries around the world, on the line, rather than just European Union funds. Is the U.S. really willing to share the burden through the IMF?

    And how would the Chinese, for example, react if such a proposition came to the IMF? No industrialized democracy is in a particular hurry to find out.

    What is the solution? One possibility is to recognize that the current euro zone might not make sense. This is not a decision that anyone will take this week, but it may well be the fast-approaching reality.

    If Europe really does want to save this version of the euro zone from collapse, what would constitute substantive steps?

    First, the EU leadership should recognize that, despite all its warts, the IMF has unique expertise in designing programs that pull countries back from the brink of financial collapse. The latest indications are that the IMF could be brought in as “technical assistance plus” to comb through the books of troubled countries, work with the governments to determine what macroeconomic programs are needed, and then monitor the conditionality of such programs while reporting back to the EU (and, more informally, to the IMF executive board).

    These programs would involve some upfront fiscal austerity to bring nations on a solvent path, but perhaps not as much as in the Franco-German bilateral-bailout scenario.

    Second, Europe must soon create a multilateral funding system that ensured adequate finance was available to each nation that adhered to these conditional programs. This could be pooled resources of EU nations, and could be supplemented with IMF financing.

    Relying on money directly from France or Germany is unwise. Finding a robust deal directly between hard-pressed French and German taxpayers and Greek public sector trade unions will be difficult. German voters, in particular, are fed up with subsidizing other Europeans—who they feel, with some justification, have not made the adjustments they promised when the euro was founded. Greek civil servants, on the other hand, are already pushing back hard against what they are framing as unwarranted German intervention and harshness.

    The Europeans will experience firsthand what the IMF has long known. When you ride to the rescue of a financially embattled nation, your arrival is appreciated for about 20 minutes. Then people become embarrassed, resentful and even angry.

    Third, the European Central Bank needs to adjust its policies, lowering interest rates further and allowing higher inflation throughout the currency union. If such looser money policies are not palatable to the Germanic core, then Berlin/Frankfurt should get on with the task of admitting that the euro zone itself is a failure.

    Finally, if the troubled countries cannot adhere to the conditionality attached to their lifelines, the European Union needs a graceful way out. They need “living wills”—plans for countries to exit from the euro zone. The mere existence of such living wills could lead to serious complications—perhaps inviting further speculative attacks—but failing to prepare would be completely irresponsible.

    Frankly, it would be a disaster for weaker euro zone countries to leave the bloc. Exiting countries would need to rewrite all their contracts in terms of new currencies, converting as many liabilities and assets as possible into those, and then manage a new monetary policy. There would be legal challenges in international courts to rewritten contracts—some of which would certainly constitute default. Building trust in any new currency is always difficult. But a German exit from the euro zone, in a huff, cannot be ruled out—although its consequences could be equally chaotic.

    Even following Thursday’s EU summit, an orderly resolution of these problems seems unlikely. The Germans will push for draconian cuts to Greece’s government spending and public sector wages but they won’t budge on relatively tight monetary policy and the overly strong euro—and they definitely won’t agree to loosen their own (German) fiscal policy.

    Ireland is already cutting hard. Such fiscal austerity leads to double-digit declines in GDP, and risks massive political revolts. Ireland’s banks are today probably insolvent. Who can afford to repay their mortgages when wages are falling and unemployment rising? Irish house prices continue to speed downward. This is not an example of a “careful” solution—it is a nation in a financial death spiral.

    Other EU countries will lobby for a continuation of the status quo. They would prefer the ECB keep lending to the periphery, and the problems be pushed off for another day. This too is no solution.

    For now Europe will try to muddle through. Greece will promise a pound of flesh, hoping not to pay, and other nations will be spared with promises of continued financing—but just for now.

    Financial markets know that this makes no sense, hence the “largest ever” short euro positions, betting on a further decline of the currency. If one country must make a substantial and painful fiscal adjustment, eventually the rest will follow. The implication for bondholders is obvious: Edge towards the door. Bond yields will stay high or creep up, until the next wave of financial crisis and contagion. The problems could easily jump beyond Europe; any sovereign with shaky finances can be hauled before the harsh court of international creditor opinion.

    The Obama administration should not recuse itself from these problems. The U.S. must press Europe to act in a way that supports the broader global economy. We should encourage an orderly resolution to problems in Europe, and press the Europeans to bring in the IMF in an appropriate fashion. The U.S. must stop relying on Europe to be “careful,” and instead cooperate assertively to help reduce the risk of further collapse in Europe.

    American leaders must also address problems at home. Unless and until the U.S. puts in place a plausible process to take its own government debt off an explosive path—for example, through an independent but Congress-backed fiscal commission of some kind, with everything on the table—we are vulnerable to the same kind of debt dynamics that now plague parts of Europe.

    This is not a call for immediate fiscal austerity; that is the path back to the 1930s. But no country can go on issuing your debt without consequence when the buyers declare, “Enough!” In the case of the U.K. and the U.S., the macro situation remains stable only as long as foreigners buy and hold our government debt. This is a major economic and national security risk.

    Financial markets are telling us the euro zone is under threat, but the real message is much broader: Unsustainable debt dynamics can undermine us all.

    —Simon Johnson is a professor at MIT’s Sloan School of Management, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute and former chief economist of the IMF. Peter Boone, a research associate at the London School of Economics’s Center for Economic Performance, is a principal in Salute Capital Management Ltd.

  49. Schumpeter says:

    plg is just a dumbass troll. No more, no less.

  50. Schumpeter says:

    I want Germany to formally tell Greece to eat shit.

  51. Schumpeter says:

    The US should get as far away from Europe’s problems as possible.

    However, I think we all know we’ll end up running directly into the fire.

    In a gasoline-soaked suit.

  52. Outofstater says:

    #53 There is no money. There is only debt. So what happens when the smoke dissipates and the mirrors shatter?

  53. Essex says:

    58. You just described my bathroom.

  54. Essex says:

    40. Find peace. RIP

  55. Yikes says:

    Plg: what you fail to realize is that people have been reading this site since ’06. posters like schump/clot, bc bob, grim and others have nailed, for the most part, this entire real estate/economic crash.

    (personal note: I bought an investment property. Found this site when we were looking to move from NYC into nj. Instantly decided I needed to unload that property. Thanks to the posters here, we never gave a nanosecond thought about live in nj due to the ever-increasing taxes. Also, in ’08, schump helped me pocket handsomly from the ETF skf.)

    bottom line: they have a history of success in the eyes of many on this board. You have proven nothing.

    Your high-speed rail plan will never work. The American People love their cars. Haven’t you seen the movie singles?

    /typed on a phone, forgive the sp errors

  56. Yikes says:

    Plg, will you confirm you are pret and get it over with?

    Or do we have to wait for your comments about Huntington beach being a cultural hearth?

  57. Nomad says:

    plg – your post #39

    regarding increasing the union presence you really think that will help or just drive up costs more and drive more jobs abroad?

    Perhaps we need to do something to drive manufacturing back to this country. Lots of reasons to do this including the stabilization and growth of the middle class.

    Do we really want to have more manufacturing that is critical to this country leave? I believe GE said they want to start building components for aircraft engines overseas. Not sure I don’t want to be able to manufacture everything my military needs in this country.

    As far as the high speed train – are you thinking Mag Lev or something similar. Do you know how much electricity those things consume and the cost to build them? You can’t run them on the tracks we have now. So whats your plan, run a set of tracks next to the old NJT ones or rip out NJT, and have no service for a time until you install the new.

    BTW – our country is broke so how do we fund it?

  58. Schumpeter says:

    yikes (62)-

    I don’t think plg is pret. Pret would never actually state an opinion straight up. He’d waffle and qualify and backtrack. Pret also had enough sense not to attack the education and smarts of people here making correct call after correct call.

    This guy plg is just a troll. He threw us all off, because he’s the first really soci@list one we’ve had here.

    I suspect he’s a bagholder and probably part of the kannekt crew. I also suspect he lives in prestigious BC…or the Peoples’ Republic of Montklair.

  59. Mr Hyde says:

    Clot, grim

    how does a bank foreclose on a house that is clear of a mortgage without making false legal claims in order to get a judgement against the home?

    Do either of you think the legal issue of banks not being able to prove they have standing to foreclose, due to sloppy paper work and securitization become a bigger issue?

  60. Mr Hyde says:


    don’t forget, pret loves his “sea of wealth” argument

  61. D says:

    but this (#10) is from 2005?! Can we at least be current!

    #10 School mistakes huge burrito for a weapon

  62. sas says:

    “St. Vincent’s in the Village Lays Off 300”

    -St. Vincent’s Hospital Manhattan began laying off more than 300 workers on Friday and asked other employees for temporary pay cuts of 10 percent to 25 percent in an effort to stave off closing.

  63. A.West says:


    That’s a really good analysis of NJ’s dysfunctional government. Everyone who cares about NJ real estate should read this, because these are the trends that matter. I hope the governor has read it.

  64. danzud says:


    I concur with . A lot of people here made a lot of good arguments to convince me not to buy in Montclair back in 2006 for good economic reasons and never has this board supported the unions as the solution to anything except maybe shorting GM.

  65. chicagofinance says:

    Depeche Mode in Poland…see the lead singer get hit with a giant inflatable yellow kielbasa at minute 2:15

  66. chicagofinance says:

    In Depth February 11, 2010, 5:00PM EST

    Lovable Lloyd
    What can we do to make normal Americans more properly appreciative of Goldman? A few ideas…

    By Michael Lewis

    BW Magazine

    Lovable Lloyd
    Executive Summary
    The Bloomberg BusinessWeek/YouGov Optimism Meter
    This Issue
    February 22, 2010

    TO: Lloyd Blankfein
    RE: Winning the Public Relations War

    Our predicament is dire. Ordinary Americans wish to control not just our pay but our core values: We at Goldman Sachs have long stood for the right of every prop group to trade against its firm’s customers. If we abdicate that right, who are we, deep down? In just the past few days many of us on the Goldman trading floor have wrestled with that question. We believe that rather than rethink our core values we should rethink our relations with the American public. Hence this memo. Your recent nonverbal signals—your habit of passing directly behind my trading desk en route to the elevators, your selection of the urinal adjacent to my own—convince me that you value my thoughts. As it happens, I have recently conducted a thorough study of the culture of mortals—or, as you refer to them, “The Morts.” Please take the following ideas in the spirit in which they are intended: a team spirit. There is no “I” in Goldman Sachs, or in me. Nor will there ever be.

    We have all seen the effects on the hearts and minds of our government officials and business leaders when they sense that our prosperity might one day be theirs. In the past year Warren Buffett has gone from being a leading critic of Wall Street to the greatest defender of Wall Street bailouts. Him we needed to pay hard cash—most accept less. That’s perhaps the most curious trait of these ordinary Americans: You don’t need to give them any money to lead them to hope that you might. Take Larry Summers, for instance. We both know that we would never actually employ even this surprisingly intelligent Mort in anything but the most humiliatingly ceremonial role. But he doesn’t know that—and thus he has done so much for us.

    Obviously, we can never employ large numbers of ordinary Americans. But if you stop for a moment and think like a Mort you will realize that we don’t need to. We need only harness two more of his many irrational traits: overconfidence, plus a willingness to ignore the odds—as evidenced by everything from his interest in the Lotto to his belief in what he calls “love.”

    Each year, for example, Goldman Sachs might announce a grand national competition, much like “American Idol.” Finalists will appear before a national television audience to be judged by a panel of three rather ordinary looking Goldman executives. On stage they will perform various Wall Street tricks: negotiating with Tim Geithner, lobbying the Senate Banking Committee, designing securities that blow up, selling bonds to Germans, etc. The winner receives a job at Goldman Sachs. Which brings me to…

    The winner of our national competition, for instance, might easily be attached to a small Web-enabled, head-top photographic device. Thus equipped he would become the eyes and ears of Morts everywhere. As he stumbles around our offices, attempting to understand that which is beyond his comprehension, he will no doubt create what ordinary Americans refer to as “comedy.” Morts love to laugh, to the point where they interpret our most straightforward remarks as occasions for humor. As we do not respond to comedy, it will not disrupt the flow of our business, and we can encourage it.

    Let me say here that I, like every other Goldman trader, have admired the lengths to which you have gone to resemble an ordinary, nonthreatening American. Your conscious decision to forgo muscle definition, along with your persistent hairlessness, has been nothing less than enlightened public relations.

    But there is only so much one human being can do, even when that being is more than human. Our employees along this new interface with Mort culture should reinforce your subliminal message. They should be “normal looking” and trained to mimic the Mort’s strange, emotional responses to external stimuli.

    But the main purpose of any new personal contact with individual Morts is to address what is perhaps our biggest problem: the new belief of ordinary Americans that they now, finally, understand what we do. That our work should be as simple as “facilitating productive enterprise,” or “allocating capital.” They have lost their former awe; we must restore it. Notice that they do not begrudge professional basketball players their vast salaries: They can see that those players are so unlike themselves as to constitute a different species. As our differences lie below the surface, they are harder for the Morts to perceive. Closer proximity to us, and our complexity, will solve this problem. They will soon weary of trying to comprehend what we do and go looking for another outlet for their personal frustrations. Which brings me to my final thought…

    At the moment they mistrust us, perhaps even despise us, but their feelings toward us are new and thus shallow. They have had 30 years of training in hating their own government (the ultimate example of Mort irrationality). We must remind Morts that we share a common enemy: them.

    Michael Lewis, a columnist for Bloomberg News, is the author of Liar’s Poker, Moneyball and The Blind Side. His next book, The Big Short, will be published in March.

  67. NJGator says:

    Hyde 65 – And the banks are now trying to make Florida a non-judicial foreclosure state.

  68. cobbler says:

    Frustrating. Spent an hour trying to persuade a nephew to file for immigration to Australia while he still passes nicely under their point system, and they haven’t yet tightened the quotas for the Americans. No way – the guy believes that even when the whole country goes bust, NYC will be fine thanks to its international status and finance industry. He lives in the city, though, not NJ. I guess he will think otherwise when the next mayor after Bloomberg will be someone a la Dinkins.

  69. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    40. Beautiful song and fitting. My condolences. Long live the Republic.

  70. Jim says:

    74. cobbler
    I remember reading a few articles a couple of years ago about people who immigrated to Australia and found it difficult to make ends meet. I guess it would depend what field you are in but it sounds like it would be hard to make a living. Plus I don’t think you can have guns anymore.

  71. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (65)-

    Yes. You wouldn’t believe how many obviously forged Assignment of Mortgage documents I see (Wells Fargo is a big practitioner of forgery, BTW).

    There’s a small cadre of lawyers and advocates in NJ beginning to work the banks for better documentation (e.g, “produce the note”-type strategies) of property interests. However, these lawyers and advocates are pretty sketchy themselves. I know a few of them, and in one instance, I was approached by a financial advisor to participate in what was obviously a straw man transaction.

    In FL, the “produce the note” game has been played with great success. I believe there’s a judge in Miami who’s dismissing foreclosures if the plaintiff has inadequate documentation.

  72. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (66)-

    At least pret believed in wealth. This plg character only believes in wealth, inasmuch as it can be seized at will and distributed to layabouts.

  73. Schumpeter says:

    gator (73)-

    Wow. Make FL like CA (biggest non-judicial FK state)? It’ll be box cars. If it happens, there will be like 1mm instant Jose Cansecos wandering FL homeless.

    I think FL’s political, social and court structure makes ditching judicial foreclosure a non-starter, though.

  74. Schumpeter says:

    cobbler (70)-

    Don’t look now, but Australia is collapsing, too.

    Their housing market has been meth-injected for years and is even more primed to detonate than ours.

    The federal gubmint first-time incentive for buyers there is 14K, and there are also state incentives on top of it. In Victoria, the incentive is 26K.

    Natch, in Victoria, there’s now a rising foreclosure tsunami on houses that have been purchased with up to 40K of gubmint funny money.

  75. Schumpeter says:

    There’s a reason Australia isn’t raising interest rates…

  76. Schumpeter says:

    Cindy (82)-

    My son has taken up this sport. His face looks like a hamburger patty.

  77. Cindy says:

    84 – Clot -LOL

    I watched several of the “walk throughs” like anyone in their right mind was going to step out and try this stuff….

  78. Cindy says:

    Gretchen Morgenson

    “Future Bailouts of America”

    “Lawmakers interested in re-election have little incentive to be truthful about what implied guarantees of powerful companies will cost the taxpayer.”

  79. grim says:

    My son has taken up this sport. His face looks like a hamburger patty.

    I gave up after my third… or was it fourth… concussion.

    The luge tracks commonly pawned off as ski slopes in NJ aren’t so forgiving.

  80. safeashouses says:


    Don’t forget about stamp duty when you buy a house or refinance in Australia. It’s waived for first time buyers, but runs in the tens of thousands when you buy your second place.

    Also Australia is more expensive then NYC, yet most people get paid like they live in East bubmlfcuk.

    Clothing, toys, and apploiances are shoddy compared to what’s available in the US, and a lot more expensive. Books are extremely expensive due to protectionism.

    It’s cheaper to buy New Zealand Granny Smith organic apples in Whole Foods then it is to buy regular New Zealand granny smith’s in Sydney.

    Gas (petrol) is much more expensive then it is in the US.

  81. Schumpeter says:

    Cindy (85)-

    The puzzling thing is, my kid keeps going back for more.

  82. Cindy says:

    89 Clot….Uh, I wonder where he gets it?

  83. Cindy says:

    Region’s Shuttered Stores Tell a Thousand Stories

    “An empty shell occupies 9,500 addresses across the Sacramento region – one closed business for every six still open, according to a Bee analysis of U.S. Postal Service data.”

    You read about the coffee & bagel shop – back up? Catering. Folks cut out their everyday coffee stop and businesses cut down on catered events – viola – out of business.

  84. Cindy says:

    90 – Remember Clot – In my book, that was an off-handed compliment: Rugged and tenacious.

  85. NJGator says:

    Happy Valentines Day Y’all…

    Love stinks! Farmer creates manure Valentine
    Half-mile-wide landscape gift amuses wife: ‘Why not do something fun’

  86. njescapee says:

    Looks like 70% off peak may be the inflection point in my area. Multiple bids on well priced units @ 170k in 2009 Vs. 590k peak in 2004. just saying.

  87. freedy says:

    no more discussion of the citi turn over the keys program. i guess it’s going to
    go over big in NJ. You get to stay for
    6 months as a deadbeat. Then you turn
    over to Citi, the homeowners new best friend.

  88. morpheus says:

    Just as long as I get my share of the $$$ when I am laid off.

    Decided to enjoy saturday and do a little work on sunday. Went to camelback with son. Little guy is really picking up the sport of skiing. Turns have improved. Has to look ahead instead of at his feet.

    He can zip down the bunny slope, but has difficulty with the greens on top of the mountain. He can handle the piles of clumped up snow, but has difficulty with the bare patches where cover has been scrapped off. However, I saw him recover many a time on these bare patches. I guess hiking has built up his leg muscles.

    BTW: happy chinese new year

  89. morpheus says:

    Sorry about your loss.

  90. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Clot 84 remember going to pick up my son, sitting in my truck see ski patrol carrying purple snow board & then basket for injured guess who.
    Odd board so I knew. Good times now he wrecks cars. Just wait it gets better!

  91. NJGator says:

    Montclair Center business owner: ‘This is the worst I’ve ever seen it’

    The store vacancy rate in Montclair’s prime business district is headed in the right direction, declining from its peak last year.

    But many people still fret about the Bloomfield Avenue area’s high number of empty storefronts. The nonprofit that markets the area has convened a committee to tackle the problem.

    Overseers of the Montclair Center Business Improvement District (BID) keep tabs on monthly ground-floor retail vacancies in the BID footprint, including Bloomfield Avenue and some of its cross streets.

    The statistics show the vacancy rate peaked last May at slightly over 13 percent. Since then, the number has fallen to “a little over 10 percent,” according to Tom Lonergan, executive director of the BID, a nonprofit established to enhance and promote Montclair’s core business area.

    That 10 percent represents roughly 40 vacancies. The pre-recession level was 6 to 7 percent.
    A sign in the window of the former location of Cianci on Church Street invites new tenants to move into the space.
    A sign in the window of the former location of Cianci on Church Street invites new tenants to move into the space.

    In recent months the vacancy rate might have fallen since the downturn is serving as a double-edged sword. In some cases, rents are dropping, opening opportunities for retailers to set up shop, Lonergan said.

    But then there is Samantha Codling, who closed her six-year-old Bloomfield Avenue store, The London Food Company, on Sunday, Jan. 24. Codling, the owner of the shuttered shop between South Fullerton Avenue and Seymour Street, said she has heard many people remark that the once-vibrant part of the avenue is commercially “dying off.

    “It’s terrible. It becomes this dead zone,” Codling said.

    When her store first opened, she recalled that her neighbors included three clothing stores and a couple of antique shops, but today “there is pretty much no retail down there,” she said.

    While the reopening of The Wellmont Theatre as a live-music and standup comedy venue has been good for restaurants, it has had no effect on the retail sector, as far as Codling is concerned, since show-goers aren’t coming to town until an hour or two before performances start, when most stores are already closed.

    There is a higher vacancy rate along the stretch of Bloomfield Avenue from South Fullerton to Lackawanna Plaza than there is in Montclair Center as a whole.

    Out of that three-block section’s roughly 73 ground-floor retail spaces fronting Bloomfield Avenue, a number that does not include the Lackawanna Plaza Mall, there are 18 vacant stores — a quarter of all storefronts along that stretch. That number includes one unoccupied space with a sign stating a business will be opening there soon.

    For that stretch of Bloomfield Avenue, the vacancy rate is approximately 24.6 percent.

  92. NJGator says:

    Passaic Valley Sewerage Commission chief to resign March 1

    Bryan Christiansen, the embattled chief of the Passaic Valley Sewerage Commission, will step down from his $313,000-a-year post on March 1, according to a spokesman for the agency.

    The 55-year-old Christiansen and his Newark-based agency emerged as prime targets earlier this month for Gov. Christie, who labeled the PVSC a house for “political hacks” with “obscene” salaries and promised reforms aimed at reining government spending in New Jersey.

    The agency employs more than 600 people and counts more than 80 employees with salaries in excess of $100,000 on its $46 million payroll.

    “Bryan has had a spent a long and distinguished 27 years in this industry and he thinks its now time to go,” PVSC spokesman Rich Ambrosino said Friday afternoon. “Surely the stress and strain of what has been going on contributed to his reason for retiring a few years earlier, but it is not the only reason.”

    With nearly three decades in the state pension system, the former Edgewater mayor is entitled to an early retirement pension estimated at roughly $140,000.

  93. njescapee says:

    how many nj taxpayers does it take to fund this one retired nj employee? 20, 30, 40, 50. wow

  94. Mikeinwaiting says:

    NJE 101 “F” him we work till we die so he can retire at 55 @ 140 k, what a screwed up system.

  95. njescapee says:

    hey, maybe PLG has the answer. LMAO

  96. leftwing says:

    “how many nj taxpayers does it take to fund this one retired nj employee? 20, 30, 40, 50. wow”

    And for how many decades…..

  97. jamil says:

    leftwing (the other thread 122), about where to move in Europe.

    “Basically, I would (and did) vote South Ken in London. 22 minutes to Heathrow, which puts you anywhere you want to go in two and a half hours.”

    This is what I concluded, too. Language barrier would be the biggest inconvenience with other countries. Also, even though rural French or Croatian countryside looks nice, I’m not sure how well foreign (especially american) expat would fit into local scene.

    I had a job offer from London last month and I started to look rentals (eh, flats) in South Kensington area. Rents have come down somewhat and look comparable to Manhattan. In the end, though, I turned it down. Salary offer would have been 10% lower than US salary (with current exchange rates) and future international tax complications and unclarity when marx-fascism both in the UK and US is finally voted out of office contributed heavily to the decision.

    Though I would have enjoyed the first class flight ticket to the UK, promised, in writing, by a forum liberal here (i need to double-check who was it – i will certainly take that offer).

  98. cobbler says:

    Schump [80], safe [88]

    I didn’t take RE into account in my argument with the guy (or even how much you can buy). I just thought about the overall direction of the country and long-term governability. Methinks that natural resources based economy and parliamentary system in the 21st Century produce a more reliable future than FIRE-based economy and separation of powers.

  99. cobbler says:

    gator [100}
    PVSC is extremely corrupt and a major factor in manufacturing leaving NJ, and overall business-unfriendly environment. The pension, however, is paid by the ratepayers, not taxpayers.

  100. njescapee says:

    sewer fees are essentially taxes w/o the benefit of deductability.

  101. leftwing says:


    Funny story on London flats.

    We’re meeting with a broker there before moving over. She wants to show us a huge variety, top to bottom price range, and keeps banging away on how expensive it is.

    Frustrated that we’re not just getting out there and seeing these things, and with my NY on, I give her the old ‘We’re in Manhattan, we understand expensive real estate.’

    She’s like, OK, let’s go and takes us around the better listings we selected.

    I’m reviewing them and thinking to myself ‘these rents aren’t so bad, even somewhat cheaper than Manhattan’.

    We get back to the realtor’s office and discuss putting offers in on two or three of the nicer ones we liked.

    It was then we found out London realtors price rents weekly, not monthly.

    Oops. Ready, fire, aim.

  102. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Rut Ro 2 links in mod.

  103. leftwing says:

    Watching Biden on CBS.

    I think they have him drugged. His left eye was all droopy and he was calm.

    Just flipped to a different station. Joe without fireworks is just wrong.

  104. freedy says:

    so here’s another prick who has drained
    the system. then says f you to the taxpayer. then will take another job.

    and continue to drain it.

  105. safeashouses says:

    #106 cobbler

    I believe Australians are the most indebted people on earth on a per capita basis. The news has brainwashed them into thinking carrying a credit card balance = investing.

    Most Australian homes look like college dorms, very spartan.

    Also massive corruption over there, New South Wales, where Sydney is, is like Hudson County.

    Any time I told Australians are expensive everything is over there, I was told that’s becuase we have a small population. They couldn’t explain why it is cheaper to buy Australian beer in NJ than it is to buy the same beer in Australia.

  106. Shore Guy says:

    “The Nat’l Guard won’t turn on us and won’t obey orders to fire.”

    Surely you jest. Does May 4, and Kent State mean not come to mind? Stand on the Commons by the Bell, and then walk up and over the hill to the parking lot where the four students died — stand right in the spots, which are blocked off with iron pillars — and then tell me that the National Guard will not shoot Americans.

  107. Shore Guy says:

    delete “mean”

  108. Mikeinwaiting says:

    New listings coming on hot & heavy about 40% REOs. 8-10% down this tear my A**. Here we go again.

  109. plg says:

    I just want to address these questions about what I am up to. I have no agenda except the free expression of a diversity of views. I respect the people on this site for their real estate knowledge. I read the site because I am interested in real estate in NJ and this is a great venue to discuss it.

    However, some the comments that go unchallenged here have nothing to do with real estate. Just because the people here were right about real estate does not mean they are correct in all matters. Some of these claims are rather sensationalist. I am just promoting what I think is a reasonable alternative point of view.

    I have seen a lot of attacks on my motives and wild-eyed ideas that I am some sort of plant. Challenging someone’s motive is counterproductive to a robust discussion. Instead of attacking my motives or my agenda I think it would be more interesting to challenge my ideas.

    For the record, I agree that NJ has serious problems. Many public employees are paid too much, property taxes are outrageous and I think real estate prices are going down. This doesn’t necessarily mean that we should cut subsidies to NJ transit.

    There are many ways that these problems can be addressed and I am expressing my view of the way I believe would be least harmful. I have no other agenda.

    I think the PVSC situation is out of hand as is much of local government. We cannot pay police and firemen six figures and huge retirement payouts. Something is going to have to give. So I think there are some points on which we all agree.

    However, as some people have said I think cuts need to be made with a scalpel and not an ax.

  110. leftwing says:

    Re: 114

    We need some good protest music. Too much happy crap these days.

    Tin soldiers and Nixon’s comin’.
    We’re finally on our own.
    This summer I hear the drummin’.
    Four dead in Ohio.

    Gotta get down to it.
    Soldiers are gunning us down.
    Should have been done long ago.
    What if you knew her and
    Found her dead on the ground?
    How can you run when you know?

  111. Mikeinwaiting says:

    “Also massive corruption over there, New South Wales, where Sydney is, is like Hudson County.” Safe 104 without the good pizza.

  112. Mikeinwaiting says:

    117 tear = year, or maybe I need to work tears into that poet if you own a home in the hinterlands.

  113. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (96) Morph

    At airport in slc after week of skiing in Utah. My 6yo is scaring the bejeezus out of me. Once she passed me on a steep blue, flying straight down the hill in a plow, and laughing maniacally as she passed. There I am, following her down the hill, screaming at her to turn and slow down.

    Next day, I saw her and the instructor on the black diamond lift line trail. According to the instructor, she likes the bumps and going fast.

    I swear, sometimes I can’t watch.

  114. willwork4beer says:

    # 107 cobbler

    PVSC may have made contributions toward their pension obligations, but Christiansen’s pension is part of PERS (Public Employees Retirement System). The pension will be paid by the taxpayers of the State of NJ.

    You can check it out on’s Data Universe.


    cobbler says: February 14, 2010 at 10:39 am

    gator [100}PVSC is extremely corrupt and a major factor in manufacturing leaving NJ, and overall business-unfriendly environment. The pension, however, is paid by the ratepayers, not taxpayers.

  115. cobbler says:

    safe [113]
    Again, I am not talking about the quality of life today (beer sold here, btw, is produced in North America on Fosters’ license). I am suggesting that when the quality of life declines, the country with parliamentary system will be much more governable than with the split system like ours. Also, they have more natural resources and fewer nutjobs per capita.

  116. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (114) Shore

    Funny that the left actually wants the NG to shoot, now that they consider NG theirs.

    Look no furhter than ths SCLC calling Oathkeepers a doestic terrorist organization, and DHS’ interest in them and other right wing orgs that they say are “infiltrating” our military.

    Does this mean that the left will also recognize the Nuremberg Defense?

  117. cobbler says:

    beer [122]

    You are right, though ratepayers and taxpayers in a grand scheme of things are the same people. Still, many towns force people to get a private garbage disposal instead of packaging it into the tax rate…

  118. Shore Guy says:

    ” she likes the bumps and going fast.”

    Perfect training to become a RE investor.

  119. Shore Guy says:


    Harry Reid: “I vas just a klerk.”

  120. Cindy says:

    #118 – I wore out the album Four Way Street -…CSN&Y

  121. Cindy says:

    128 written by Neil Young – Find the Cost of Freedom – Written by Steven Stills. I can’t seem to find a version with Steven singing it though…

  122. willwork4beer says:

    #122 cobbler

    Except that out here in the hinterlands, most folks have a well and septic. So not only do we pay the full freight of our “sewerage”, we get to pay for part of Passaic Valley’s, too…

  123. Essex says:

    121. It’s nice that you and little Graydon and Felicity can have those experiences.

  124. grim says:

    Ellery dude, get it right.

  125. willwork4beer says:

    #129 Cindy

    I remember reading an interview with Stephen Stills once where he said that he always imagined Find the Cost Of Freedom as part of a longer song. It was later recorded as part of a song called Daylight Again. Here it is with CSN doing the singing:

  126. Shore Guy says:

    To stand on the commons and to walk up the hill and to stand by the pagoda next to Taylor Hall and to walk down into the parking lot, where the spot of each victim’s death is marked, is a very moving experience. If one then walks back up the hill to the pathetic memorial the State of Ohio errected, one gets a visceral understanding that Ohio has not come to gripps with what happened and it leaves one with the impression that it could happen again.

  127. Shore Guy says:


  128. Mr Hyde says:


    heck a tribute to your father inlaw!

  129. Mr Hyde says:


    I’m sure you are familiar with northcom. They also purposfully comprise response teams of soldiers NOT from the area they may respond to in order to avoid “neighbor” issues. They also now train soldiers in basic training to engage potential “friendles”.

    They will not hesitate.

  130. Schumpeter says:

    wing (104)-

    It would only take one to bust a cap on him.

    End of problem.

    “how many nj taxpayers does it take to fund this one retired nj employee? 20, 30, 40, 50. wow”

  131. Cindy says:

    134 – Willwork…Thank you so much! I am considering that my Valentine’s Day present!

    Do you like the music from back in my day? Who was your favorite? I am a total harmonies junkie.

    X – My favorite YES song..

  132. Schumpeter says:

    South Kensington is great. I’d live there. Not too far to Stamford Bridge or Craven Cottage.

  133. Schumpeter says:

    wing (111)-

    I think that’s called a ministroke.

  134. Schumpeter says:

    Shore (114)-

    Those were people they perceived to be an enemy. This time around, it will seem as though they’d be shooting at their peers.

    Also, during Vietnam, we hadn’t already exhausted our National Guard by forcing them to fight years of endless wars and ruining their lives by essentially conscripting them to eternal soldier status.

    I think the Nat’l Guard in its current state would turn on the gubmint in less than a week.

  135. Schumpeter says:

    plg (117)-

    I say cut with a heavy-duty, logger-type chainsaw.

    “However, as some people have said I think cuts need to be made with a scalpel and not an ax.”

  136. gary says:


    I saw CSN&Y at Madison Square Garden a few years ago. My oldest brother almost made it to Woodstock so I grew up with the era. The first time I heard Alvin Lee play “I’m Going Home” live, my jaw was on the ground. I picked up a guitar shortly after and haven’t stopped since! :)

  137. willwork4beer says:

    #140 Cindy

    Aw shucks… You’re welcome. Happy Valentine’s Day!

    I was pretty much raised by my older sister. She listened to everything and dragged me with her everywhere. I still remember her flipping out when Abbey Road was released. I was six.
    I guess my favorites from those days would be bands like CSNY, Jefferson Airplane and the Dead.

    PS. I still have a copy of 4 Way Street. On vinyl…

  138. Shore Guy says:

    Saint Stephen with his rose….

  139. willwork4beer says:

    Wherever he goes the people all complain.

  140. Cindy says:

    Willwork and Gary –

    I saw CSNY in 1974 at the Oakland Coliseum. They looked like ants on a stage from where I was sitting.

    Gary, you keep playing that guitar.

  141. Barbara says:

    my husband’s cousin, 2nd I think, was one of the killed at Kent State

  142. plg says:


    Have a look at this article. It takes a reasoned approach to cutting.

    “The point is not to do the same type of things you were doing before — trying to tax your way out of it,” Seneca said. “That ultimately becomes self defeating.”

    Maher said he also agrees with Christie’s contention state residents are too heavily taxed. Still, he thinks the state will likely end up raising its gasoline tax — which is low compared with most other states — in order to bring in additional revenue.

    “It’s hard to figure out how they can close the … budget gaps just by cutting costs,” Maher said. “They have to be careful where they make the cuts, so they don’t jeopardize the broader recovery, which will be pretty fragile.”

  143. Cindy says:

    151 – Barbara – OMG Those were some confusing times. I was a junior in college. There were protests on every campus in the USA – Fresno State included. It could have happened anywhere.

  144. Yikes says:

    Plg- in this forum opinions are being expressed. They are subjective. There is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.

    What you’re seeing is that on these subjective matters, very few People here agree with you. Your thoughts/views might gain more traction on other websites on the net.

    That is not to say you should leave… Just don’t get bent when people disagree with your take on subjective matters.

  145. leftwing says:

    “End of problem.”

    A savings of what, $2m at least?

  146. Schumpeter says:

    plg (152)-

    Hows about we cut off the triple-dipping pols, the illegals, the union thugs and the welfare trash in Camden, Paterson, Newark, etc?

  147. Schumpeter says:

    left (155)-

    Multiply that by the numbers in the groups mentioned in #156, and now we’re getting somewhere.

    Also, a strong eugenics program should be introduced, so those being cut off can’t go all Muslim/Third World on us and breed themselves into a majority.

  148. cobbler says:

    From the APP link above:
    Daniel Hogan, owner of Hogan Security in Pennington, said he wants schools to offer more vocational-technical training for blue-collar workers, and he would even be willing to contribute to the effort.

    He said he has openings for locksmiths and other security technicians, but finds it hard to find qualified workers because the state’s educational system is designed to get students ready for college.

    “There is a significant segment of our economy that’s been left behind,” Hogan said, who has operated his business since 1982.

    I can’t imagine a mainstream paper printing this even 2 years ago. Actually, one of the reasons why Germany stays as a manufacturing powerhouse and we are fading away (besides our knack for always hitting the lowest priced stuff even if it falls apart the next day) is the well-established industrial apprenticeship system there which attracts many smart kids who are too lazy to go to college. Here, they just become drug dealers or other small-bore salespeople. As a result, when we are looking for the production staff (rather high-tech), the youngest candidates passing the aptitude test are like 40 yo.

  149. NJCoast says:

    CS&N- worked with them a while back. Graham was as nice as can but the other two are nasty creatures that won’t speak to each other.

    Spending today “phishing” with Trey. Damn vegans.

  150. Schumpeter says:

    Keep Trey away from those little girls.

  151. leftwing says:

    “the well-established industrial apprenticeship system there which attracts many smart kids who are too lazy to go to college”

    Actually, it’s not that the kids are too lazy, it’s just their aptitude.

    People are better at different things. In Germany, they offer a viable alternative for young adults who do not excel in academics.

    I look at some of my nieces and nephews and have a similar reaction to the author above – for what viable career are they being educated/trained?

    Why would one go to a lower tier four year college at $150k plus four years of lost experience/earnings? There is no IRR that works for the vast majority of those graduates.

    Kudos actually to one of my sisters-in-law who seems to be making the ‘difficult’ decision with one of her boys and not sending him to college.

    Kid is active, personable, and a go-getter but not there academically. She’s hooking him up with a close family friend who has an established business which piques the kid’s interests (he’s worked there summers). He can learn a trade and skills, including managerial, bookkeeping/financial, forecasting, etc. After a while he can be positioned to buy the current owner out or spin out on his own, which is a much better use of the resources they would have used to send him to college.

    It seems we make families (feel they must) choose being professionals or ditch-digggers.

    There’s a lot of good real estate in between….

  152. Schumpeter says:

    You should slip some bacon into their food.

  153. Schumpeter says:

    left (161)-

    Your SIL is ahead of the wave. The sheer cost of college is going to make this kind of decision for a lot of people.

    Without the desire or means to borrow massive amounts to finance four years of bong hits and keggers, vocational ed is about to take off in the US. All for the good, I say.

    “Higher” education is the last bursting bubble.

  154. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (131) Essex

    Thanks. I intend to spend this money before the proletariat siezes it all.

  155. cobbler says:

    schump [163]
    For this to happen, we need a massive mentality change. Graydon’s dad kills himself sooner than he tells his buddies that his son is training to become say a power plant operator (actually, pays about $27/hr + overtime from the start – and the only one of our county colleges that has a 2-yr program has trouble finding candidates who are interested and smart enough not to blow the thing up…).

  156. Shore Guy says:


    You have mail.

  157. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    Well, I’d just like to thank whoever started me off on that CSNY / Youtube journey back in time.
    I spent the better part of the afternoon just following those links all the way back to 1969….just beautiful.

    What harmonies !!

  158. Bystander says:

    Spain struggles with crisis message

    Is it bad that my only personal hope is that Italy and Holland get added to the list? This about the most accurate acronym of all-time.


    We could just call the whole mess Pigshitaly. I hope it catches on.

  159. morpheus says:


    eugenics? clot you are making me nervous!
    welfare is ok if it helps you when you are in a tight spot. My understanding of the current system leads me to believe it is flawed since it lacks job training or child care (may be wrong about this belief, someone care to enlighten me?)

    However, welfare as a career, ie., a lifetime on the dole is just plain wrong.

    As someone who was “on the dole” for a short period of time as a child, what is really important is work ethic: my mom always stressed education and pushed us to work hard.

    instead of eugenics, perhaps a test to weed out the lazy (spoke by the man who was to do work today at home but instead got sidetracked by kegging a keg and 1 six pack of belgian wit (5.71% ABV) God I feel lazy, better have a beer!)

  160. morpheus says:

    ummmm. . . . .Beer good.

  161. morpheus says:

    the little guy was on skis for the very first time in late december. I am very pleased with his performance. Remember, I have been trying to get him on skis for since he was three.

    Really felt like a good father yesterday when I took him skiing. My father was always working and really could not spend a lot of time with me. However, important events or when the SHTF, he was there. I am of course referring to my step-father.

    Be back in a few, have to ring in the new year. “party favors”

  162. morpheus says:


    wife is begining to warm to the idea of gun ownership. Problem: apartment is too small. Do they have gun lockers the size of file cabinents or larger? Where to start the research?

  163. Essex says:

    164. Heh heh you know I am just jealous!

  164. Essex says:

    Hey anyone see that ‘school choice’ bill the person from South Orange brought up? People could go out of district to any school. Now that is something I could get behind! Continue to live in my place which I love but choose the high school over in snooty-town? Hmmmmm

  165. Mr Hyde says:

    essex 174

    If that was picked up on any large scale you would need to shift school funding to the state level as opposed to local property tax level. Otherwise you end up with popular school’s student [population outstripping their funding

  166. grim says:

    Do they have gun lockers the size of file cabinents or larger?

    A locker? Is she warming to the idea of a gun, or a standing militia?

  167. Cindy says:

    Fiddy @ 167 – “What harmonies!” You have Leftwing @ 118 to thank for the trip down memory lane.

    NJCoast @ 159 – I figured Nash was nice – he still sounds great too. Does Stills sound worse than the others? He appears to.

    I listened to Buffalo Springfield in high school. Neil Young/ Steven Stills – Unbelievable to me. I was listening to folk music, mostly Peter, Paul and Mary, then – Wham – Amps. The guitars just kept getting louder and louder –

  168. morpheus says:

    #176: grim—one thing at a time. One would need multiple guns depending on the threat radius. figure i need a handgun, shotgun and a rifle, in the very least.

  169. morpheus says:

    In taiwan, the wife received weapons training in high school. .. something about defending the island against the CHI-COMs

  170. Shore Guy says:


    I preferred them when Young sang with them. Not that I was a big fan of Neil Young in general, although I have a huge weak spot for Cinnamon Girl. Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere, Heart of Gold, and Sugar Mountain have a certain appeal as well. Also, I think his voice MAKES Ohio.

  171. Shore Guy says:

    “Peter, Paul and Mary”

    Gimme the Stones anyday:

    “Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields….”

    “I live on an apartment on the 99th floor of my block. And I sit at home looking out the window imagining the world has stopped ….”

    “I see a red door….”

  172. Mr Hyde says:


    Being in an apartment isnt a problem.

    They have gun safes of all shapes and sizes, from glove box size to closet size.

    a few examples:

  173. Mr Hyde says:


    PS. Thanks for the red pill.

  174. Shore Guy says:

    As for acoustic guitar pieces, I will stack-up Growin’n Up, Atlantic City, and My Hometown against just about anything in terms of poignancy although for virtuosity, this cat is hard to beat:

  175. Shore Guy says:

    Another treat from Smokin’ Joe Bonamassa:

  176. safeashouses says:


    The pizza in Sydney was awful. If you have ever seen one of those little conveyor belt toasters they have in some office cafeterias and hotels picture one big enough to hold a pizza and that’s what they use. There was one brick over place in The Rocks on George St that was great. All the other pizza places I tried were awful.

  177. safeashouses says:


    In NJ I’ve bought James Boag’s brewed in Tasmania and Cooper’s brewed in South Australia for less than I was paying in Sydney. No one in Australia drinks Fosters (well at least admits to)

    The security over there is pretty bad too. I was never asked for an id any time I flew domestic. When we went to Canberra I parked under the Parliment building. There was no security. Would be very easy for a wacko to do a lot of damage.

    Parliament has lots of problems too. People were representing districts they didn’t reside in, also lots of corruption. Plus the racism was much higher in Australia than it is over here.

  178. Shore Guy says:

    The WORST pizza I ever had was in Oklahoma City.

  179. safeashouses says:

    #179 morpheus

    My wife had that weapons training too in Taiwan. She even got to fire a few clips at a military range.

  180. willwork4beer says:

    Must not waste bandwidth with beer posts… Must not waste bandwidth with beer posts…

    Too many beer references…

    Oh screw it.

    Founder’s Cerise. My recommendation for a Valentine’s Day beer. Sweet and tart cherry with a touch of fizz. Mrs. Beer loves it.

  181. Mr Hyde says:


    Your wife did not fire “a few clips”. She fired a few magazines.


  182. Mr Hyde says:


    I quite enjoy seeing how deep the rabbit hole goes. Preferable to the alternative

  183. Mr Hyde says:


    sorry, just a pet peeve of mine

  184. Mr Hyde says:


    Does this metaphor make SAS the Cheshire cat?

  185. PGC says:

    Beer tip of the day.
    Real Guinness. Its going down like water. Pity the bar is closing.

  186. safeashouses says:


    Wife says she reads magazines, fires clips. :P

  187. Mr Hyde says:


    is that your wife in this video?


  188. Schumpeter says:

    cobbler (165)-

    Don’t worry. Some very smart and practical people will see that developing a great base of skilled workers- as opposed to drug-addled liberal arts layabouts- will trigger the creation of the kinds of jobs and industries that will drag us out of this depression.

  189. morpheus says:


    Don’t know. requires more thought than I can muster right now. Need another beer.

    sorry: my wife does not do hip-hop. ballet and modern

  190. Schumpeter says:

    morph (169)-

    I wouldn’t go any further than forced sterilization in my eugenics program. I would also do only on the basis of denying welfare cheats and Muslims the ability to procreate to ill purpose.

    I would NOT use it to eliminate mental or physical disabilities from the population, a la the Third Reich.

    Go ahead, call me a racist now.

  191. Essex says:

    165. Dood. Mindset or not. It is about having a skill. Being able to ‘do’ and think. Or at least convince someone that you can.

  192. Essex says:

    205. I love a little Eugenics talk on Valentine’s Day.

  193. Essex says:

    Back on the Chain gang.

    Happy Valentine’s Day

  194. Mr Hyde says:


    a better method.

    Tax everyone for each child they have, with the tax increasing with each additional child.

    it has the same end effect without specifically targeting one race or group.

  195. Mr Hyde says:

    And yes i do have children….

    Would still support such a measure.

  196. Mr Hyde says:


    your wife could have fired a few clips, but would have to have been firing an M1 Garand or a handful of similar files that actually use clips as opposed to magazines.

  197. Housing Purgatory says:

    Went to an open house today… First decent listing in months. After a 2 day open House, 80+ visits on the sign ins… I just don’t get it. House was nice but guess what? Yep, Overpriced, and after seeing the action the open house saw, they will get it. Geezus h.

    Just cant win…

  198. Cindy says:

    187 – Morpheus – The Pill Hyde @ 197 Rabbit hole? Cheshire cat?….I couldn’t resist…

    Willwork likes Jefferson Airplane.

  199. Mr Hyde says:


    Got any sugar cubes or blotter paper to pass around?

  200. njescapee says:

    Hyde, Re210: unintended consequence may be more illegal immigration to fill the need for menial / cheap labor. Those additional taxes paid by citizens will then pay for the newcomers’ healthcare and education.

  201. Mr Hyde says:



    thats why you would have to implement real and effective immigration control.

  202. Mr Hyde says:


    I love this interview…

    Humphry Osmond was the British psychiatrist who coined the term “psychedelic”. This short video documents an experiment in 1955 in which he administered mescaline to Christopher Mayhew, a member of…

  203. njescapee says:

    Hyde, nice fantasy anyway

  204. Mr Hyde says:


    I never said it was realistic. It is just a more efficient and less offensive version of Schumps, suggestion

  205. willwork4beer says:

    #215 Cindy

    Thanks for the link. I have to say that it was really Jorma’s wooden music that made me an Airplane fan. Always more of a Hot Tuna fan than a Starship fan. Though I saw both in concert.

    #216 Hyde

    More of a mushroom fan. But the statute ran on that a lOooooong time ago.

    But I cracked a Mad Elf from my stash to make up for it. Elfen Madness is as psychedelic as I get these days.

  206. Veto That says:

    Beijing Seen Vacant for 50% as Chanos Predicts Crash

    Chanos, founder of New York-based Kynikos Associates Ltd., predicted that China could be “Dubai times 1,000.”

  207. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto 223

    Isnt that obvious already? They have something like a 10yr backlog of commercial RE!!!!

    The only question is how long can china hide the issue.

  208. njescapee says:

    Hot Tuna was fun to listen to with Papa John Creach’s fiddle. I read that Jorma and his wife run excellent guitar workshops. Used to listen to the New Riders of the Purple Sage back then too. Loved the first 2 albums.

  209. willwork4beer says:


    Re: NRPS

    I referenced their “Red Hot Women and Ice Cold Beer” a ways back. My favorite New Riders song. What a surprise… ;)

  210. Mr Hyde says:


    i believe that salvia is still not regulate din most areas, if psychedelics are your thing

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    Great ad by planned parenthood(NSFW)

  212. Mr Hyde says:

    And yes,

    I am sure that the previous link was photoshopped.

  213. Mr Hyde says:

    Can we nuke GS yet?

    Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis
    As worries over Greece rattle world markets, records and interviews show that with Wall Street’s help, the nation engaged in a decade-long effort to skirt European debt limits. One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.

  214. willwork4beer says:

    #227 Hyde

    Oh no no no I don’t smoke it no more

    Got tired of wakin’ up on the floor

    No thank you please, it only makes me sneeze

    And then it makes it hard to find the door

  215. confused in NJ says:

    143.Schumpeter says:
    February 14, 2010 at 1:03 pm
    Shore (114)-

    Those were people they perceived to be an enemy. This time around, it will seem as though they’d be shooting at their peers.

    Also, during Vietnam, we hadn’t already exhausted our National Guard by forcing them to fight years of endless wars and ruining their lives by essentially conscripting them to eternal soldier status.

    I think the Nat’l Guard in its current state would turn on the gubmint in less than a week.

    One would think, yet the majority of the National Guard serve as Pseudo Regulars, for years, along side the Paid Regular Military. Doesn’t make sense for a National Guardsman to serve multiple tours in Iraq which was a Questionable War, no W.M.D. or actual threat, yet they do? One has to wonder. Afghanistan is a more justifiable choice because of Osama Bin Ladin. Either way, why would Part Time soldiers place themselves in harms way in Guerrilla Wars? With Vietnam, many originally believed in the Domino Theory of Communist expansion & threat. Of course many also resented the Draft, and being placed in Harms Way, without a direct threat on the US. Wasn’t as though Vietnam was going to invade California.

  216. gary says:

    Housing Purgatory [214],

    Let them have the house. Housing has been the greatest money making scam for the last eight years and counting. Homeowners who bought more than ten years ago made money, no doubt, but they were just supplying the prop for the sting. The cons (realtors, mortgage guys, securities bundlers) made a fortune by swindling the buyers by creating the backdrop. In the real world, we (this blog, etc) know it’s the buyers that set the price, not the sellers and certainly not the RE industry. It’s a ruse, and probably the greatest one ever and continues to be. If you find a house that fits your needs, you make the offer based on long term fundamentals. The asking price, the RE mantra, the so-called tax credit (what a bunch of bulls1t), the hype and the talking points mean nothing, it’s all a tool designed to get your money. You tell the realtor and/or sellers the price you’ll pay and tell them they have 48 hours to accept. Case closed.

  217. chicagofinance says:

    eh…you kind of went one post too many on Valentine’s Day… 1:50PM

    157.Schumpeter says:
    February 14, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    left (155)-
    Multiply that by the numbers in the groups mentioned in #156, and now we’re getting somewhere.
    Also, a strong eugenics program should be introduced, so those being cut off can’t go all Muslim/Third World on us and breed themselves into a majority.

  218. gary says:

    Why is it so difficult for buyers to understand the basics? YOU tell the sellers and realtors what the house is worth, period! If they don’t like it, f*ck em, move on. Let the f*cking house rot for months on end, you can continue to build wealth while you wait and they can bleed debt drop by drop. Who wins in the end?

  219. Yikes says:

    So gaspirino is leaving cnbc for the fox business network? Can’t say I’m surprised.

  220. willwork4beer says:

    In case anyone was curious, the clothing-optional Wiccan house had an open house today. I couldn’t talk Mrs. Beer into going, however.

    I was wondering out loud about what they might do for Valentine’s Day. She said I don’t want to know…

  221. chicagofinance says:

    For the GenX set and druggies…you need a bit of these shitzes….
    if you think this is a bunch of noise, then you don’t get it….

  222. chicagofinance says:

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  223. njescapee says:

    i think gasparino may already be on the news corp payroll aa a reporter for the ny post.

  224. morpheus says:


    I am not calling any one names.

    I think the problem with muslims, i.e. western europe, is that they do not want to assimilate.


  225. Schumpeter says:

    Time for some drastic measures. Keeping deadbeats and Muslims from breeding like rabbits is only common sense.

    Islam is a violent religion, and they are bent on destroying us (even though they love us as hosts for their parasitism). If we keep them from breeding, the responsible among them might have a chance to get control of- or even, eradicate- the violent.

    For our part, I’m all for withdrawing all Christians and Westerners from all their holy lands and from the Middle East in general. Let them have it…and let them have it free of pollution from folks like us.

  226. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Clot, 157

    breed themselves into a majority.

    Too late.. it’s almost fait accompli already.


  227. njescapee says:

    242. Schump, makes sense to me. we need to develop our own petroleum, natural gas, nuclear, and alternative energy resources and withdraw from this moronic empire.

  228. sas says:


    “Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations”

    I once went to a lecture from a person who made the “peak soil” claim. scared the crap put of me. makes you think twice.


  229. sas says:

    and no, that ain;t a type-o.

    there really is a peak soil.


  230. chicagofinance says: says:
    February 14, 2010 at 10:38 pm
    and no, that ain;t a type-o.
    there really is a peak soil.

    SAS: are you sure he didn’t mean peat?

  231. chicagofinance says:


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  232. Mr Hyde says:


    Re NIN.

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  233. cobbler says:

    safe [190]
    The beauty of the parliamentary system in its British/Oz/Canadian interpretation is in (a) party discipline and (b) parliament members being Cabinet members, that is, being actually responsible for actual things. As a result, things get done quickly and are less laded with pork. Parliamentary system did not prevent the UK from royally blowing up on the same FIRE bomb that did us; however they are able to be much more aggressive in dealing with it.

  234. Shore Guy says:


    The other advantage is the whole idea of a shadow government. If the Torries are in power and one one votes for Labor, one has a pretty good idea of who the various ministers wil be. Here? Fuggedaboudit! We elect someone and take it on faith that they will appoint decent people, and more often than I would like to see we get knuckleheads.

  235. Mr Hyde says:

    Great Idea!

    Utah’s solution to eliminating their budget shortfall? Eliminate the 12th grade!,0,906102.story

    Welcome to Brazil! Or is it Argentina?

  236. LoveNJ says:


    Last one.

  237. Mr Hyde says:


    when are you going to get one of these?

  238. Mr Hyde says:


    Sorry Love…..

  239. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [225] ket

    Having been there and out with families, I can guarantee you that the idea is getting zero traction in Utah.

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