New Jersey Home Price Tracker – September 2010

The New Jersey Home Price Index Tracker has been updated to include:
* July S&P Case Shiller (Aggregate, Tiered, Condo)

(click to enlarge)

(click to enlarge)

S&P Case Shiller NY Metro Commutable Area Home Price Index

Low Tier (Under $289395) – Peaked in October 2006 and is down 24.4% from peak

Mid Tier ($289,395 – $450,042) – Peaked in September 2006 and is down 21.0% from peak

High Tier (Over $450042) – Peaked in June 2006 and is down 14.0% from peak

Aggregate (Overall Market) – Peaked in June 2006 and is down 19.0% from peak

Condo-Only Index – Peaked in February 2006 and is down 13.7% from peak

This entry was posted in Economics, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

205 Responses to New Jersey Home Price Tracker – September 2010

  1. grim says:

    From HousingWire:

    JPMorgan finds delinquencies in prime RMBS increasing slightly

    Investment bank JPMorgan finds that the level of mortgages more than 60-days overdue continued to increase in the prime space, while generally decreasing for other products.

    The analysts for the August remittance report said the data indicate delinquencies on prime mortgages have yet to peak. The report tracks the performance of several indices that monitor securitizations.

    Month-on-month, the numbers do not vary greatly with 60-day delinquencies up to 11.2% across prime indices, 30.9% across Alt-A, 42.7% for option ARM, and 41.5% for subprime.

    “Modifications and short sales are now keeping a lid on delinquencies in lower credit products,” according to the analysts.

  2. grim says:

    Keep in mind that delinquency percentage rate increases in the prime space represent a greater number of individual borrowers than similar percentage increases in the Subprime and Alt-A spaces due to the smaller size of those markets.

  3. grim says:

    From the AP:

    Home prices to take hit next year in many markets

    Don’t take the latest snapshot of U.S. home prices too seriously.

    The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller 20-city index released Tuesday ticked up in July from June. But the gain is merely temporary, analysts say. They see home values taking a dive in many major markets well into next year.

    That’s because the peak home-buying season is now ending after a dismal summer. The hardest-hit markets, already battered by foreclosures, are bracing for a bigger wave of homes sold at foreclosure or through short sales. A short sale is when a lender lets a homeowner sell for less than the mortgage is worth.

    Add high unemployment and reluctant buyers, and the outlook in many areas is bleak. Nationally, home values are projected to fall 2.2 percent in the second half of the year, according to analysts surveyed by MacroMarkets LLC. And Moody’s Analytics predicts the Case-Shiller index will drop 8 percent within a year.

  4. grim says:

    From the APP:

    N.J. incomes drop 2.3%, but we’re still second

    New Jersey’s median household income dropped by nearly $1,600 between 2008 and 2009, according to a Census Bureau report issued Tuesday, though the state retained the nation’s second-highest median income despite the 2.3 percent dip.

    Nearly 47 percent of mortgaged owners in New Jersey spend 30 percent or more of their household income on housing costs, trailing only California, Florida, Hawaii and Nevada. That has climbed 6 percentage points since 2005. The same financial burden is carried by half of renters, also ranked fifth nationally.

    Median household incomes experienced the biggest declines in New Jersey in Cape May, Salem and Somerset counties, according to the Census Bureau data.

    The American Community Survey also found:

    Americans aren’t moving to New Jersey. No state had a smaller percentage of people who lived in a different home in the United States one year earlier, for the fourth straight year. When New Jerseyans move, they’re less likely than people in any other state to relocate within their state.

  5. grim says:

    From the Record:

    Census: Median household incomes fell in Bergen, Passaic over past year

    The deep recession hit New Jersey households hard last year, sending incomes down and pushing more families into poverty, according to U.S. Census figures released Tuesday.

    Median household income fell 9 percent in Passaic County and 2 percent in Bergen, while falling about 3 percent in the state and nationally.

    The state’s poverty rate rose from 8.7 percent in 2008 to 9.4 percent in 2009 — the highest in a decade.

    “There’s an alarmingly significant increase in poverty,” said Anjali Srivastava, co-director of the Poverty Research Institute of Legal Services of New Jersey.

    The numbers confirm the pain of the economic downturn that New Jerseyans have felt for more than two years. Among the only groups to do better in 2009 were public employees and Hispanic households; both saw gains in either wages or overall income.

    “The great recession of 2008-2009 took its toll on incomes,” said James W. Hughes, a Rutgers economist. The state’s unemployment rate, which averaged 5.5 percent in 2008, jumped to 9.2 percent in 2009. Although the recession officially ended in June 2009 — 18 months after it began — unemployment remains stubbornly high, at 9.6 percent in the state and nation.

  6. Al Gore says:

    U.S. Dollar Is `One Step Nearer’ to Crisis as Debt Level Climbs, Yu Says

    “The U.S. dollar is “one step nearer” to a crisis as debt levels in the world’s largest economy increase, said Yu Yongding, a former adviser to China’s central bank.

    Any appreciation of the dollar is “really temporary” and a devaluation of the currency is inevitable as U.S. debt rises, Yu said in a speech in Singapore today.

    “Such a huge amount of debt is terrible,” Yu said. “The situation will be worsening day by day. I think we are one step nearer to a U.S.-dollar crisis.”

    Yu also said China is worried about the safety of its foreign-exchange reserves including those invested in U.S. Treasuries as the U.S. currency weakens, reiterating his earlier views on the dollar assets. The U.S. will record a $1.3 trillion budget deficit for the fiscal year ending Sept. 30, the Congressional Budget Office said Aug. 19. ”

    Cant wait until social welfare programs get put into the dumpster of history.

  7. Poltroon says:

    I just wish we could get away from the Dem-Rep smokescreen.

    They both are waging war against us. They are both corrupt to the core. Neither is better than the other. We are dopes to get caught up in their fake fight.

  8. jamil says:


    if 57% of voters say that they want OC repealed, how many of those you think are leftists who think it should be be more leftist?
    Yeah, zero. Leftist don’t want it to be repealed, they want it to be “strengthened” ie criminalize private care (in Canada few years ago it was a felony if doctor treated a patient outside of The System) .
    There is actual consensus among americans. Get rid of OC. So yeah, Obama has united americans.

    You can’t cherrypick nice things from OC, e.g. pre-existing conditions. If insurance companies have to accept them, why would anyone take an insurance beforehand? Why not wait until you really need it (say, get cancer), then just show up and demand treatment. Insurance companies would have to demand sky high premiums from everyone. Only solution would be to criminalize not having insurance, but that pesky US Constitution comes to way. Government cannot force citizens to buy insurance.

    fab: Dems had absolute, 100% filibuster-proof majority so you can’t blame GOP for anything. GOP has proposed many ways to improve healthcare. The fact that you and State Media ignores it, does not change it.
    For example, you could improve situation a lot with a 2-page healthcare bill:
    – tort reform (say, require actual evidence, beyond reasonable doubt, in trial, give charity care 100% immunity against lawsuits etc)
    – allow interstate insurance (if you can buy insurance from Ohio plan, you get 20% discount immediately)
    – deny public health services from illegals (including anchor baby moms)

  9. jamil says:

    “I just wish we could get away from the Dem-Rep smokescreen.”

    Yes, but at least on the GOP side, people are doing something and getting rid of the Old GOP Guard.
    Leftists love to deride tea parties, but both the movement and the ideas they propose are more popular than any competing movement or idea in the US right now.
    Cutting spending and limiting the Imperial Government are decent goals and I think they are ready to push actual solutions (say, cutting 50% of gov workers, including 99-100% of Dept of Education and all race-baiting depts).

    What is going on in the Dem party? Unions and actual communists are getting more and more power and influence.

    In November, there is a real choice.

  10. bp says:

    We went to an Open House this weekend. House was placed on the market last week. In the first fifteen minutes there were two curious neighbors, one realtor with her husband and another family who came in as we were leaving. Could not believe what a dope the realtor who was selling the house was. When we were leaving he pointed out that he had never seen such a beautifully upgraded house and that it would sell immediately. Since the house was empty, I asked him if the owners had moved out of state. His reply “No, the owners are still leaving in the house”. My reply “Really, there is absolutely nothing in the house, no furniture, no utensils”. His reply “Oh, yeah, they may have just left since the owners usually leave the house during an Open House” What a dope!!!!

  11. NJCoast says:

    Brandi Carlile killing it at the Count Basie theatre tonight. What a voice.

  12. Comrade Nom Deplume aux maison says:

    [134] [prior thread] Pine Brook

    “I have a PhD in chemistry and working for pharma. My job will be gone soon and it is highly likely that I won’t find another one soon. I am thinking of getting in to law school and work in IP area. Do you think it is a good idea? Can you give me your thoughts?”

    No. Based on what I read in your post, I don’t think it is a good idea and here’s why.

    First, you have no passion. I always tell people that they should go to law school only if they want to be lawyers. You’d be amazed how many were there for reasons other than that. Many I know from my evening division dropped a boatload on law school, and are technically “lawyers” yet never left their old jobs. In fact, some never passed the bar, even after multiple tries. So they paid 35 or 40K for a piece of paper with latin on it, and the right (maybe) to call themselves a lawyer. Big Whoop.

    Second, the deck is stacked against you. No one wants older, inexperienced lawyers. Trust me, I know. Your one saving grace is that you have a boatload of experience in a particular field. That is golden, but there also has to be legal work in that field, either in Pharma or outside counsel. Forget FDA—gov is getting the pick of the litter.

    Third, while we are all sloppy at times when posting, your command of the language is suspect. Nothing personal; no one is asking me to teach English. But a superior command of the language, and the ability to write clearly and completely is necessary.

    Fourth, I suspect you don’t know your field as well as you think. I used to think, Pharma, okay, IP and FDA regulation. But there are a host of “normal” legal issues in pharma, such as contracting, tax, corporate, etc. There are also state regulators, something I had not appreciated. Then there are subsets of IP, only some of which are relevant to pharma, and even there, the distinctions are important. When you tell me you want to go into IP, it says that you haven’t done your homework.

    Fifth, if you are valuable to a potential employer as an attorney, you are also valuable as a consultant. And you don’t have to study Torts.

    The only reason you should attend law school is if you are reasonably certain that you can rely on your superior knowledge of your industry to get you a job. For that, there has to be openings, either in house or at firms, and unless you go to a top tier law school, you won’t get into big firms that do pharma IP work. In fact, I would go so far as to say, if you can’t get into a top program, don’t go. It isn’t worth it. I would also recommend a clerkship at the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. Mostly great judges there, but the clerks cannot play softball for crap.

    I realize that this is harsh, and a beat down of your plans. This is not really my intention; rather I am playing devil’s advocate. At least get into the batters box and see if you can hit big league pitching by getting into a top 20 law school. And do swing hard when you do this—don’t let ambivalence take the energy out of preparation. But know this: Unless these are your dreams, and not just contingency plans, I predict pain and heartache in your future if you go down this road without commitment, passion, and smarts.

  13. Libtard says:

    Shore Guy:

    Going to sleep tonight without any medicine. Post-op follow-up visit is tomorrow. Will know more then. Thanks for caring.

    I’m sure Gator enjoyed her temporary singles lifestyle. Unfortunately, she was single with child. :P

  14. sas3 says:

    “if 57% of voters say that they want OC repealed, how many of those you think are leftists who think it should be be more leftist?
    Yeah, zero.”

    I admire your confidence in persisting with your viewpoint even after the basis has been refuted. Keep believing in your teabagger nonsense.

    The HCR should have been comprehensive with a public option — irrespective of whether that would have been the silver bullet or not. Obama tried to get consensus, GOP screwed him and the public badly. The blue dogs got in on the action and screwed the public even more. They are all slaves to big donors anyway…

  15. Essex says:

    I like to hear the pov of nearly everyone. Since it reinforces my estimation that most people walk around duped.

  16. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    N.J. residents not optimistic, despite faring better than rest of nation during recession

    On the street today, New Jersey residents were not optimistic about the results of the survey.

    “It’s kind of funny, I was just reading a story online where they said the recession ended in 2009. And I’m like, ‘Hello? Really?’” said Judy Amorosa, 53, of Union. “My husband is self-employed and his business is dead as door nails.

    “I don’t know where the data comes from,” Amorosa added, referring to the survey. “That kind of data isn’t coming from my household.”

    Frenchtown teacher David Schafler, 41, said if New Jersey is the richest state in the nation, he doesn’t see it.

    “I know a lot of people from all walks of life, and they’re struggling, at all levels,” Schafler said. “It doesn’t seem like things are quite getting better.”

    Technically, the long recession ended in mid-2009, but the census data released today showed no trend toward recovery. Food stamps reached a record high, unemployment was 10 percent and the gap between rich and poor got larger.

    Household income in New Jersey fell 2.3 percent, to $68,342, between 2008 and 2009, a smaller decline than the 2.9 percent that brought down the national average to $50,221.

    New Jersey was clearly on top for median monthly housing costs. A single month’s housing costs, including mortgage and taxes, is $2,401, or $28,000 per year. The monthly nut dropped to $1,673 in Illinois, $1,387 in Texas, and the lowest was $895 in West Virginia.

    The income gap between rich and poor got wider with the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans — who earn more than $180,000 — adding slightly to their annual income, while the low end of the working class, those earning less than $35,000, showing small declines.

  17. grim says:

    From the Record:

    Alpine loses top spot on Forbes’ list of most expensive ZIP codes

    The borough of Alpine, which counts celebrities like Stevie Wonder, CC Sabathia and Chris Rock among its 3,000 residents, has been bumped from the top spot on Forbes magazine’s annual list of the nation’s most expensive ZIP codes.

    Alpine fell to fourth place on the 2010 list, which the magazine released this week. Its median home price fell 8 percent over the last year to $3.8 million, placing it behind three California towns — Duarte ($4.3 million), Atherton ($4 million) and Rolling Hills ($3.9 million).

    Alpine topped the annual list last year and in 2007. It placed second in 2008, and 15th in 2006.

  18. Poltroon says:

    jamil (10)-

    You are truly a moron.

  19. Poltroon says:

    Care to comment on C Street or their work in Uganda, Jamil?

    Yeah, elements of our Rethuglican party actively support genocide in Uganda. Your “state media” also suppresses reporting on this little embarrassment, too.

    Great Americans there, Jamil.

  20. Poltroon says:

    Sen. Imhofe…a great American hero.

    Who encourages mass execution of gays in Africa.

  21. Poltroon says:

    Oh…I take it back. That great American, Mark Sanford, belonged to C Street.

    They sagely counseled his wife not to raise her voice to him and to give it up for him anytime he wanted some ass…AFTER he ran off to Argentina.

    How do I get into this group?

  22. Poltroon says:

    Rethuglicans = nazis

    Dumbocrats = fascists

  23. yo'me says:

    % of Debt to GDP has been growing with a Republican President watch for the last 35 years.And I hae to trust them,the champion of deficit cutting.This is the time 90% of Americans need their govt’s help,cut deficit and champion a tax cut for the top 3% top earners then cut SS. Benefits. I will go with Clot on this,neither is the solution.

  24. Mike says:

    House in Roselle Park,NJ Date Description Price % Chg $/sqft Source
    07/16/2010 Price change * $269,000 -29.2% — Coldwell Banker Liberty
    06/09/2010 Listed for sale * $380,000 -36.6% — Coldwell Banker Liberty
    12/05/2009 Listing removed * $599,000 — — Liberty
    04/10/2009 Price change * $599,000 — — Liberty
    12/08/2008 Listed for sale * $599,000 8.9% — Coldwell Banker** Tax History
    Year Taxes paid % Change Tax assessment % Change
    More entries Fewer entries
    2010 $13,752 3.0% $122,100 —
    2009 $13,358 5.3% $122,100 —
    2008 $12,691 190% $122,100 —
    2007 $4,376 — $122,100 171%
    2006 $4,376 85% $45,000 73.1%

  25. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Relax Folks I Bring Good News!!!!

    “Congressman Barney Frank: “I think the economy is getting ready to take off.”

  26. Mike says:

    BP No. 11 The title realtor sounds to profressional I believe everyone on this blog should start refering to them as a house guide in your case a dopey house guide

  27. Al Gore says:

    26. That means one of 2 things. The economy is going to tank hard like 2008 or qe 2 is underway ans ready to ramp up.

    “Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound.”

    Barnie “f_ck face” Frank 2008

  28. Mikeinwaiting says:

    HeHe 26 Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  29. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    The sad thing about Barney is so much crazy sh*t comes out of his mouth you wonder what he really does believe. Is it all lies or is he just insane?

  30. Poltroon says:

    he (26)-

    I’m tempted to think a gerbil has cut loose somewhere in his lower GI tract.

  31. Poltroon says:

    We are a nation of retards, saddled with precisely the gubmint we deserve.

  32. Poltroon says:

    Wonder if this is what England was like as the empire crumbled.

  33. Al Gore says:

    33. I don’t think the english were ever dumb enough to elect a community organizer from another country to hold the office of president/prime minister.

    That makes the US king of retards.

  34. yo'me says:

    Reagan eliminated alot of tax deductions including automobile mortgage interest deduction during his term.Increase SS full retirement age for people born after 1959 gradually to age 67 ,they are working on it to be 70.Look at the Gross Debt ever since.
    Look at the Democratic Presidents record on the deficit since 1945.

  35. yo'me says:

    Even Carter was good on the deficit.

  36. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    “Even Carter was good on the deficit.”

    He was a champ for the dollar.

  37. relo says:

    Your local relator would appreciate your not factoring in this to the comps.

  38. Mr Hyde says:

    Lets see if Algo trading can pump the S&P over 1150 for more then a blip.

  39. Mr Hyde says:

    Its a party in Spain!!!

    MADRID—Much of Spanish industry ground to a halt, the capital’s commuter trains and bus services slowed and small flashpoints of violence broke out in the early hours of Spain’s first nationwide strike in eight years.

    Unions are challenging Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero’s austerity push and labor-market overhaul, measures widely seen as necessary to pull the country out of its deep economic and fiscal crisis.

    In a statement, Comisiones Obreras, Spain’s largest union, said nearly all the country’s metallurgy and automobile manufacturing workers have walked off the job.

  40. Poltroon says:

    Real Madrid isn’t playing well, either.

  41. Poltroon says:

    The Spanish have raised doing nothing to an art form.

  42. chicagofinance says:

    The problem is that “The Economy” is the stage name of his favorite male stripper.

    Dissident HEHEHE says:
    September 29, 2010 at 7:44 am
    Relax Folks I Bring Good News!!!!
    “Congressman Barney Frank: “I think the economy is getting ready to take off.”

  43. homeboken says:

    From CNBC (via Dealbreaker) – The Meridith Whitney and her projections for future Wall St employment #’s:


    WHITNEY: 80,000.





  44. Anon E. Moose says:

    Pat [6];

    Another demographic stat is fewer children per household. Even if the POS suburban slum cape was the housing of choice, who needs 3-4 bedrooms? Singles or young couples don’t need multiple bedrooms because they are delaying having children for professional reasons, and financial ones (e.g., until the student loans are paid down or off), hoping that income will rise to afford to have a family. 1-2 bedrooms will do them quite nicely for the next 10-12 years.

    Even if they do have a family, its 1 kid, 2 tops. Just consider transportation – gone are the days when 4 kids could pile into a station wagon for any reason. They don’t make a vehicle wide enough to fits 3 car/booster seats across the back, so >2 kids means you’re in 3-row minivan country ($30k min, or ~$600/mo payment plus insurance). Day care and extra-cirriculars for the kids eat up any/all money of the second adult income. Smart people aren’t having kids.

  45. Punch My Ticket says:

    Mike [30],

    Excuse me, but 5% of the value of a house is not a reasonable level for property taxes.

  46. Punch My Ticket says:

    relo [39],

    A link from your article in River Edge.

    Doesn’t appear to be a complete wreck. 2003 prices. Who knew?

  47. Punch My Ticket says:

    Yo Nom,

    60 days overdue on Timmay’s obligatory expatriate report. WTF?

  48. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [49] Punch

    According to the board liberals, I was the only one that cared. What are you trying to do, burst their bubble?

    Interesting that this report still hasn’t been released and the succeeding quarter is almost at an end.

    Now I hear that the FEC won’t act on a finding from their staff attorneys that the SEIU violated election laws. This coming on the heels of DoJ’s refusal to adopt the recommendation of their staff attorneys to prosecute the Black Panthers.

    What I want to know from the board liberals is this: Will they accept banana republic tactics when they are in the minority in the same way they accept them now that they are in the majority? I won’t wait up for an answer on that one.

  49. jamil says:

    15 sastry: “I admire your confidence in persisting with your viewpoint even after the basis has been refuted”
    Refuted? When 57% of voters want it to be repealed?
    Ok, if you are right, Pelosi/Obama-aligned candidates win in large numbers in November and they proudly promote the ideas you advocate.
    If I’m right, tea party aligned candidates win big time in November (and during the campaign, dems are silent on these public options and expanding gov healthcare issues.)

    This disagreement between us is easy to verify. Let’s get back to this on Nov 3 and see who is out of touch. Agree?

  50. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [46] moose,

    “Smart people aren’t having kids.”

    I recall a discussion I had with a relative of a girlfriend about this very subject.

    In 1982.

  51. pine_brook says:

    13 Comrade Nom Deplume aux maison
    Hi Nom,
    Thanks for the honest opinion. I’ll be taking your advise seriously.
    Pine Brook

  52. dan says:

    Aside from taxes that would make anyone vomit, can anyone say something good or bad about Glen Ridge?

  53. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [52] me

    scary thing about that convo was that she seemed to support eugenics.

    And she is jewish.

    I found that strange, which was why I remember it.

  54. chicagofinance says:

    Beer people…comment? Guy told me that if you let it age a few months, it tastes even better…

  55. chicagofinance says:

    BTW – OR XII was $18 for the bottle…

  56. plze! says:


    Didn’t get a chance to write anymore last night. I agree with almost all that you wrote.

    Primary care docs are hurting cuz payment for regular office visits pay so little and they can’t perform tests where all the money is. Specialists that can order and perform tests/procedures are making a killing-especially if they own the facility where they do the tests. Next time a doc orders a test, ask him if he happens to own the facility. Most will look very uncomfortable! And the pharma companies, hospitals and supply equipment vendors are along for the ride. While unethical docs are certainly out there-it’s a flawed payment system designed by Medicare that has cultivated this corruptness!! Malpractice is a huge issue as well.

    One other thing. I get asked by docs pretty regularly how much we charge for so and so test (ex: MRI) because they have patients that have healthcare savings accounts. You can get the same MRI for $500 or $2000 depending on where you go. People that have healthcare savings accounts are VERY price conscious and shop around for prices. Since the money is coming from their personal stash, they care what xyz costs. Insured people don’t care how much things cost as the insurance covers it. That’s why people that enter healthcare savings accounts usually see a 30% drop in their healthcare costs just the first year. So more government coverage with less patient copays (Obamacare in theory), etc would probably lead to higher costs because the person wouldn’t care how much the government has to pay….. The whole system is backwards.

    And for the person who thinks Cuba’s healthcare system is great, don’t get me started. Michael Moore conveniently leaves out all kinds of facts. In fact, I don’t recall a single insurance company high level executive, hospital executive, etc being interviewed in Sicko-in other words, Michael couldn’t stand up to someone who really understands the business. He interviewed all kinds of patients-but being sick doesn’t make someone an expert-just a victim.

    Ex: We have lower infant mortality rates than some other countries. That’s because we have loads of infertility services for womeon who can’t get pregnant. These treatments cause more women to be pregnant with twins, triplets, etc. Multiples during a pregnancy usually lead to early labor and premature babies who have higher death rates and need more intensive healthcare treatments. In other countries, if you can’t get pregnant, too bad. But once you do, you’ll probably only be pregnant with one child and have a full term baby. Michael forgot to mention that.

  57. Juice Box says:

    My BIL just took a job in Detroit, he has been moving all over the country for the last few years chasing work, he is now looking for a cheap place to live. He is a cheapo, I gather he will find a cheap house in and around Detroit.

    Seems there is a renaissance of sorts occurring there.

    Creative Detroiters quietly rebuild, challenge city’s bad rap

    “Last month, we traveled to Detroit with co-creator and star of the “Jackass” empire Johnny Knoxville to explore what lies gasping beneath the rubble of over-indulged industry, frighteningly embarrassing municipal mismanagement, and decades’ worth of social and economic imbalance. What we found is a burgeoning class of creative young folk intent on rebuilding their communities and the city, despite being faced with a world that has already phoned in their city’s obituary.”

  58. Poltroon says:

    #44 is post of the year for me.

  59. plze! says:

    errr correction, we have higher infant mortality rates than some other countries

  60. sas3 says:

    Jamil #51, you need to account for the spread, right?
    1. Economy is in the tank
    2. At a macro scale, there is voter anger from right and disappointment from the left
    3. At a microscale — recession is when one’s neighbor loses job; depression is when one loses the job. People that lost jobs will either be angry/disappointed or have other things priorities than voting in mid terms
    4. HCR is only one issue. Bank reform, jobs bill, ending the wars, ending the tax cuts*

    Given this, what is your definition of tea+GOP winning big?

    * I support ending tax cuts for all, but dems seem to be doing the GOP style of 3T deficit instead of 3.7T deficit. Personally I don’t see much difference. If the rich pocket another 700B in addition to whatever they gained from deficit spending, good for them, but 3T deficit is 3T deficit. Instead, that money can be used for direct hiring on things like solar energy (or even things like labor for installing solar panels on homes).

  61. Mr Hyde says:

    oh the tangled webs we weave!!!!

    But lawyers and law enforcement officials in a handful of states contend that they have found far more serious examples of fraud. These officials argue that the companies filing foreclosure claims often did not have legal standing to kick people out of their homes and used forged paperwork to cover their tracks.

    So assuming improper foreclosures are being made by companies that do not have legal title to the home, and that the house is then sold to someone else, you would appear to end up with quite the legal quagmire. One of the legal beagles here please feel free to correct me, but assuming the company that foreclosed and subsequently sold the property did not have proper/legal title to do so, the the house should revert back to the original owner and the foreclosing company is now legally liable to suits from both the person who bought the “foreclosure” and the original owner, correct?

  62. Juice Box says:

    There are a few POed liberals who got the pink slip that will vote Republican this time in Barney Franks 4th district. Don’t know if it will be enough to unseat him though.

  63. Mr Hyde says:

    A fun missive from Gross

    The New York Times just last week described the previous balancing act that pension funds – both corporate and state-oriented – are now attempting to perform. Their article describes their predicament as the “illusion of savings,” a condition which features the assumption that asset returns on their investment portfolios will average 8% over the long-term future. No matter that returns for the past 10 years have averaged 3%. They remain stuck on the notion that the 25-year history shown in Chart 1 is the appropriate measure. Sort of a stocks for the long run parody in pension space one would assume. Yet commonsense would only conclude that a 60/40 allocation of stocks and bonds would require nearly a 12% return from stocks in order to get there. The last time I checked, the investment grade bond market yielded only 2.5% and a combination of the two classic asset classes would require 12% from stocks to hit the magical 8% pool ball. That requires a really long cue stick dear reader, or what they call a “bridge” in pool hall parlance. Best of luck

  64. Mr Hyde says:

    One more time

    The last time I checked, the investment grade bond market yielded only 2.5% and a combination of the two classic asset classes would require 12% from stocks to hit the magical 8% pool ball. That requires a really long cue stick dear reader, or what they call a “bridge” in pool hall parlance

    Bye Bye pension funds!

  65. Poltroon says:

    Assclowns, all of these financial “geniuses”. IL pension fund managers, Gross, El-Erian, Dimon, the whole crew.

    Time to start jailing and executing the whole scurvy lot. Burn the mf’er down and start over.

  66. Poltroon says:

    When was it that we began worshipping the creators of these doomsday machines?

  67. schabadoo says:

    A great listen.

    This American Life catches up with some bailed out Wall Streeters. Their gratefulness and humility on full display.

  68. Mr Hyde says:


    Lets see how quickly this all comes apart:

    By Karen Freifeld
    Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) — Ambac Assurance Corp. sued Bank of
    America Corp. and its Countrywide Financial over 12 mortgage-
    backed securitization transactions, saying Countrywide
    fraudulently induced the insurer to issue policies covering the
    payments. The suit was filed yesterday in New York state Supreme
    Court in Manhattan.

  69. schabadoo says:

    Re: Detroit

    “Last month, we traveled to Detroit with co-creator and star of the “Jackass” empire Johnny Knoxville to explore what lies gasping beneath the rubble of over-indulged industry, frighteningly embarrassing municipal mismanagement, and decades’ worth of social and economic imbalance. What we found is a burgeoning class of creative young folk intent on rebuilding their communities and the city, despite being faced with a world that has already phoned in their city’s obituary.”

    The short version: hipsters are moving into the city.

  70. Mr Hyde says:

    70 poltroon,

    by all means then, lets seat them on their throne

  71. Outofstater says:

    #46 My mom always said that if you wait to have kids til you can afford them, you’ll never have them. Serious question: is it really impossible to afford more than one or two children in NJ? If so, that’s a shame. My neighborhood near Atlanta has three families with five children each and mom stays home while dad works. And no, we don’t live in a wealthy neighborhood. The kids don’t wear fancy clothes and vacations are local day trips but all the kids seem happy and they take music lessons and are involved in scouting, etc. It makes me wonder if wanting more children is yet another reason to move out of NJ.

  72. schabadoo says:


    You should read the Detroit story. Grab an $8000 house and have fun!

  73. sas3 says:

    “is it really impossible to afford more than one or two children in NJ? If so, that’s a shame.”

    That’s a weird question. Of course, not! One can raise a perfectly happy family on a relatively low budget [above a minimum threshold]. Many parameters like house size, cars, work schedules, rent/own options, etc., can be tweaked easily.

    Do you think that there is a strong correlation between income/wealth and large family sizes? My impression is that there may actually be a negative correlation.

  74. Surprised says:


    I recently found out that I have twins on the way and happen to live in New Jersey. I am terrified. Having lived in southern states, I honestly believe that it would be much easier to raise my family in someplace like North Carolina. The plan was for 2 children. Now we end up with 3. Living in New Jersey, I am royally screwed.

    By the way, no fertility treatments were involved.

  75. Mr Hyde says:


    There is a well documented negative correlation between wealth and family size.

  76. Simon says:

    “By the way, no fertility treatments were involved.”

    Second coming of the Messiah

    pun intended

  77. Unexpected HEHEHE says:

    Those European protests look like they got pretty rowdy. How long until we see the same here?

  78. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [77] sas3

    A friend in college grew up dirt poor. Truly dirt poor.

    He once told me “money doesn’t buy happiness. But I rather be rich and unhappy, than poor and miserable.”

  79. southjerseyip says:


    not Comrade Nom Deplume aux maison but I’ll chime in anyway.
    I moved from r&d to ip few years ago. I largely agree with Nom, but ip is very special field.
    most people in ip work in the prosecution side. basically it means that you are writing technical drafts all day long.
    your strong technical background would probably make that easier, ie you would meet your billable hours easily.
    for some reason, many ip atts are foreign-born with suspect english skills, but in the prosecution side it hardly matters. law school and non-prosecution side it matters more.
    you might want to check out your company’s ip dept and talk to somebody there. also, google ip forum and you can find there many people asking the same questions.
    ip law is in recession, 25% less work than few years ago (dues to cuts in company level ip and r&d budgets) though things look to be getting a bit better now.
    if you go to law school, it should be top-10 or no law school at all. you would probably have decent chance of biglaw ip if you get into top-10. otoh, there are plenty of unemployed ip attorneys out there.
    you might also want to check out scientific advisor/patent agent careers. some law firms do have those positions. some ip depts are also hiring experienced r&d professionals for their inhouse positions. uspto also has patent examiner positions in dc.

  80. Mr Hyde says:

    How about this protest in the UK

    A 41-year-old man has been arrested after a concrete mixer truck was driven into the gates of Leinster House. The words ‘Anglo Toxic Bank’ were displayed on the drum of the truck and a billboard on the back of the truck said ‘all politicians should be sacked’.

  81. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [82] me

    and in case you were wondering, he went to UMass gratis on the Montgomery bill (and supplemental state aid) after leaving the army, his only career option at the time.

    He now works as an engineer (something to do with safety, hygene, and remediation), and lives in central mass. with a lovely family, courtesy of the woman I introduced him to. Truly a self-made person, even if he isn’t a gazillionaire.

  82. jp says:

    I’m going to have my second child. I make much more than the reported “median” income of NJ as referenced in the above articles. BUT, I have to admit that I have no idea how I can afford a second child. I think it really comes down to my aversion in amassing debt to live a certain lifestyle.

  83. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [83] sojoip

    I am not in IP so I will defer to you on that industry. Good advice.

  84. wtf says:

    (49) They probably have more important things to do than publish a list of the World’s Biggest Crybabies

  85. Punch My Ticket says:

    Hyde [84]

    Ireland. Another one of the PIIGS.

  86. Punch My Ticket says:

    Nom [50]

    The Banana Republicans are different how?

  87. yo'me says:

    “Even Carter was good on the deficit.”
    He was a champ for the dollar.

    Chronology leading to the oil shock in 1973

    The U.S. started the chain of events when Nixon devalued the dollar relative to the gold and finally abandoned the gold guarantee. The Oil Shock came when OPEC raised the price of oil to compensate. The increased price of oil rippled through the economy, causing inflation. The Fed raised interest rates to “fight inflation” causing the recession of the 80s and increasing the value of the dollar relative to foreign currencies (the Dollar Shock). This made imports less expensive and caused the Trade Shock; it was cheaper to manufacture products abroad and import them. Deregulation was another response to reduce costs (The Deregulation Shock); subtly and systematically, this resulted in a corporate culture where national interest was of decreasing consideration in business decisions. Hence our increasing economic and defense vulnerability.

    A chronology of the 70s taken from Secrets of the Temple by William Greider (a great book):

    August 15, 1971 – President Nixon dismantled the Bretton Woods agreement. It had made the U.S. dollar the stable benchmark for all currencies (gold was $35/ounce).

    December 1971 – Nixon devalued the dollar by 7.9% (gold at $38/ounce).

    Early 1973 – The U.S. devalued the dollar by 11% (gold at $42/ounce).

    March 1973 – The gold guarantee was permanently abandoned.

    Fall 1973 – OPEC quadrupled the price of crude oil. William Greider wrote in Secrets of the Temple:

    In the fall of 1973, six months after the dollar was permanently “floated,” OPEC quadrupled the price of crude oil. The OPEC price escalation was a direct and logical response to Nixon’s fateful decision. Oil trades worldwide in dollars and if the U.S. was going to permit a free fall in the dollar’s value, that meant the oil-producing nations would received less and less real value for their commodity. The dollar had already lost one-third of its value in only half a dozen years and seemed headed toward even steeper decline. In substantial measure, Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations were grabbing back what they had already lost – and tacking extra dollars on the price to protect themselves against future U.S. inflation. The Wall Street Journal observed: “OPEC got all the credit for what the U.S. had mainly done to itself.” [WSJ, 1/30/86] The abrupt run-up of oil prices fed instant inflation into the price of everything else. Poorer nations that could not pay the bills borrowed heavily – the “recycling” of petrodollars by major banks. Banks collected the deposits of revenue-rich OPEC governments and lent the money to developing nations so they could avoid bankruptcy and keep their economies growing.

    1974 – 75 – Recession. Unemployment peaked at 9.1%. Industrial production down ~15%. But when growth of the economy resumed, so did inflation. There was high inflation and high unemployment … both were not supposed to happen at once.

    December 1978 – “buy now, pay cheaper” inflation spiral in progress

    79Q1 – Inflation at 11%

    Summer 1979 – Gas lines, panic buying and “topping off” of gas tanks

    Sep. 1979, late – Fed tightened money, but vote split was 4-3, made markets nervous … skeptical that Volcker would halt inflation

    Fall 1979 – Speculation frenzy in gold and silver was rampant. Farmers encouraged to be leveraged in purchasing machinery and land. Speculators buying homes creating artificial demand. Builders see other builders constructing homes … the “me, too” syndrome. Volcker called this the “froth of inflationary expectations.”

  88. Yikes says:

    grim says:
    September 28, 2010 at 7:56 am

    My insurer will no longer cover spouses who work and are eligible for insurance through their employer.

    Had a huge impact on a number of two income families. Now instead of paying for family coverage, one spouse pays family and the other now has to pay for individual.

    Cost some here thousands of dollars a year.

    Correspondence from the insurer about the change pointed directly at recent legislation driving up costs.

    What a joke. We’re going to the single-income soon. Would rather have the wife at home with the kid. Well, we’ll do it as long as I can make money

  89. Juice Box says:

    re #75 – Re: rasing kids in NJ and costs and the future.

    That’s a big question. For today Let’s just start with residential real estate, and say the next five years which is about the average time span to start raising a family then the need to expand and buy a house. These factors have been dominating the housing discussions.

    1) The end of the false belief that housing only goes up has come is being replaced by the truth that housing only keeps up with inflation over time.
    Spending 40% + of your take home on a mortgage payment is a mistake many people made during the bubble. They are going to regret spending all of that monthly take home on a house when they don’t have savings for college and cannot retire and their home won’t be break even for a decade or more.

    2) Falling interest rates have driven down monthly payments to help out those spending large portions of their take home on Mortgage Payments. Rising interest rates will do the opposite, once the Mortgage Industry is privatized again. It will be privatized again, since there is approx 2.8 Trillion in checks written every year for mortgages in the USA way too much GDP for just a place to live.

    Unless incomes inflate faster, housing prices have to fall. Who is getting large raises and large bonuses? Bueller? Bueller? Those are only given out in boom times when there is competition for talent and over-sized performance. Can anyone imagine a scenario for wages in allowed to rise faster than inflation? What company does not
    use the BLS inflation numbers to justify not giving a large raise?

    Only if the system goes completely sideways, ala JAPAN, and In that case, home prices will be the least of most people’s concern…Believe me the Japanese could care less about real estate values these days.

  90. Mr Hyde says:


    Dont for get about schools. My son is in a great montassori school and the difference between him and his peers who have gone the traditional schooling route are already obvious to me. Unless i want to deal with constantly deprogramming my child from the public school BS and unlearning bad habits then in the north east you can expect to pay a substantial premium.

    In places like NC private schooling of virtually all the major methods is easily available to solid middle class parents. In the NE its a stretch to afford private school for 1 child much less multiple.

  91. Juice Box says:

    re #84 – Ireland not the UK. If you did that on Wall St or down in DC you would be put up on terrorism charges. Notice this is the second time he used the Cement Mixer for a protest? He got his cement mixer back and will again this time too with a slap on the wrist. The Irish really only jail the worst criminals. Most of their prison population of about 3,500 are drug traffickers.

  92. Outofstater says:

    If you want children, have them. If you want 3 or 4, have 3 or 4! Don’t worry about the money. It will all work out. You’ll see. Honestly, how many of you have ever thought, “Gee this kid is costing me a bundle” as she falls asleep in your arms. Not me, not ever and I’d bet not any of you either. At the end of the day, you won’t care how much money you had. You will realize that your children are your wealth and that’s the only kind that matters.

  93. BeachBum says:

    The whole pension fund thing is a question of timing:
    will the American public be safely locked in full servitude before everyone realizes that they’ve been royally scammed by everyone, the MSM, the ruling classes, etc. because there is no way that a 401(k) and social security was ever supposed to be enough to live on. We just kept agreeing to the downsizing because it was happening to someone else (ie labor, not the people living in Brigadoon).

    If the right wingers have timed it right, the sheeple will only awake when the factories will have all been shipped off shore, the legal and accounting professions along with them (it’s already underway), and all the other “highly educated service sector jobs” that we’ve trained the masses to fill. No need to do them in NJ when you can use the time zone difference and telecommunications to do it all from Asia. The there’s no choice to shiver and submit, like the rabbits in Watership Down, waiting to be farmed one by one.

  94. BeachBum says:

    PS: bankers will get offshored as well – they just don’t want to believe it. It’s happening already and Meredith Whitney has called it.

  95. Mike says:

    Juice, Totally agree the prices have to come down but when will this Mexican stand off end between the buyers and sellers?

  96. BeachBum says:

    PS: as to kids, I really disagree that you need to send kids to private schools. My brother and his wife live in Middletown, and their kids are very smart. They will do fine because their parents move them forward every minute of the day. No need to spend millions in my view. Better bang for your buck is Harvard when the time comes (this from a Rutgers girl who got a free ride which allowed grad school and law school).

  97. make money says:


    This time it’s different.

  98. BeachBum says:

    Finally, as an update, I still don’t have my deposit money back – hopefully this week. They have now offered me the house “for a discount” – what a joke!

  99. Juice Box says:

    re: #94 – Remember Mitchell our resident NC expert trying to push us Northerners to relocate to his wonderful housing development near Charlotte? Bet he is back living in his double wide again, spending his days noodling for his dinner. Last time I checked their unemployment was hovering around 12% and their housing bust much much worse.

    There is a reason why they have one of the largest populations of trailer homes in the entire country. Unless you own a pig farm or have a bullet proof job at BOA I would not move anywhere in NC.

  100. Mr Hyde says:

    Beach Bum,

    You mean similar to how Perillos of Athens built the Brazen Bull for Phalaris and was ten promptly tossed into it?

  101. Mr Hyde says:


    I’m not pushing NC, just using it as an example. Besides are jobs really any safer in the NE then the SE?

  102. Mr Hyde says:

    beachbum 100

    I would prefer my child maintain the capacity for independent and critical thought.

  103. Poltroon says:

    hyde (74)-

    Don’t touch that banker; hand me the pliers.

  104. Poltroon says:

    hyde (84)-

    That guy is on the right track.

  105. BeachBum says:

    Hyde, I like the “spicy clouds of incense” and the “melodious bellowing” although I think it will be more rivers of blood in the street:'s_Day_massacre

    As to independent and critical thought – if your kids see that happening around them every day at home, they’ll get the picture. That’s what reading and family dinners are also for. Chaining yourself to crazy jobs to pay for private school – and not insisting that our public schools are of high quality takes out of the system, it doesn’t make it better. I think the assault on public schools is a crucial part of turning people into fodder in the belly of the beast.

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [90] punch

    Never said that they were different. If I did , please point it out. And if you have comparable instances of similar behavior under the Bushes or Reagan, please share them (and let’s leave out Iran-Contra. That was foreign).

    My point is that the left would jump on any similar instances like a NJ politician on a taxpayer. If you defend these practices for Obama, then, in my book, you cannot be heard to complain if a GOP administration does the same.

  107. Barbara says:

    yes, go ahead and have 3-4 kids, because if you do, you will qualify for the state discount on your family’s health insurance. Also, free or discounted lunch tix. Yep. Don’t get me started. On yeah, too late.

  108. Poltroon says:

    The friggin’ Muslims who are the ones breeding like rabbits.

  109. plze! says:


    i used to live in chapel hill, NC—best place i’ve lived. tons of educated folks-i think it has one of the highest phDs per capita. beautiful weather, ocean nearby, cheap housing, and lots of large corporations. dont believe the stereotypes. i now live one of the best, exclusive towns in NJ. NC was better!

  110. sas3 says:

    Clot, there are some good xtians that breed like crazy.

  111. Barbara says:

    Ph.D.s from bible colleges don’t count.

  112. plze! says:


    how about PhDs from Duke University and the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill. What university in NJ even compares? Don’t be so closed minded.

  113. plze! says:

    i meant to say what public universities in NJ compare (princeton’s great)

  114. Barbara says:

    I’d just like to get a stat on where those PH.D.s are coming from. I’m very familiar with the Carolinas, and bible colleges rule, literally, in many towns.

  115. Libtard says:

    ChiFi (57): beer-rasputinXII.

    Same brewer of my beloved Brother Thelonious so it’s probably pretty good. I would splurge just to find out. Who carries it?

  116. Poltroon says:

    barb (115)-

    I went to UNC and lived in Chapel Hill for 6 years. Blows the dump aka NJ away.

  117. Poltroon says:

    The bible college set doesn’t live in the Triangle.

  118. Libtard says:

    “The bible college set doesn’t live in the Triangle.”

    Even with the trinity and all?

  119. plze! says:

    yep, makes perfect sense. all the PhDs are coming from tiny bible colleges. the HUGE universities aren’t pumping out any.

    Here are the numbers….. Raleigh/Durham-next to Chapel Hill ranks #17 for most PhDs per 1000

    From: (Jeffrey A Royle)
    Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
    Subject: MOST PHDs per 1000 folks (the data from the N&O article)
    Date: 6 Jul 1994 03:15:35 GMT
    Ok, here are the numbers from the June 26 N&O article pertaining to the number of Doctorates (Ph.D.s and Ed.D.s) per 1000 people:

    Metro. Area Population/1000 Doctorates Per 1000

    Champaign/Urbana/Rantoul 173 4541 26.245
    Sante Fe, NM 117 3043 26.042
    State College, PA 124 3094 24.995
    Bryon/College Station TX 122 2989 24.528
    Ann Arbor, MI 283 6825 24.122
    Iowa City, IA 96 2307 24.001
    Lawrence, KA 82 1900 23.228
    Columbia, MO 112 2468 21.961
    Lafayette/West Lafayette IN 131 2816 21.562
    Boulder/Longmong, CO 225 4800 21.301
    Bloomington, IN 109 2246 20.610
    Athens, GA 156 3154 20.183
    Gainesville, FL 204 4057 19.876
    Charlottesville, VA 131 2455 18.725
    Trenton, NJ 326 5743 17.626
    Raleigh/Durham, NC 735 12561 17.079
    Madison, WI 367 5762 15.697
    Fort Collins/Loveland, CO 186 2704 14.527
    Tallahassee, FL 234 3177 13.600
    Boston, MA 2871 34916 12.163

  120. Mr Hyde says:


    Date: 6 Jul 1994 03:15:35 GMT

    your list appears to be a little dated.

  121. Barbara says:

    well snap, plz , they aren’t tiny and they are glorified (pun intended) diploma mills, ie, they sh*t out PH.D.s monthly. Just sayin. If Chapel Hill has avoided this unsavory reality, that’s great.
    I work with people who have been ripped off and can’t get a job anywhere due to their dumb assed parents insisting that they go to these bible colleges, which are not properly accredited. These colleges are IFB mafias, and they go after your money and credit and all the while, you can’t even get a job with your PH.D.

  122. pine_brook says:

    southjerseyip 83

    Thanks for the insight. Few others have told me the same thing you said. I am thinking of taking “patent bar” exam to become a patent agent/tech consultant.

  123. Anon E. Moose says:

    Hyde [65];

    Its not that complicated. The bank can’t sell what it doesn’t own. There was a piece about Wells disclaiming title defects in their REOs, and their captive title insurer excluding foreclosure defects from its coverage. On the other hand, there is also a presumption of finality in court decrees. The homeowner presumably had the opportunity to raise the issue in the foreclosure process.

    My eyes were drawn to this quote from the article:

    Despite evidence of such problems, some judges focus solely on whether a borrower missed their monthly payments.

    That’s really the rub isn’t it? If the submarine homeloaner isn’t paying as agreed, its a little hard to be sympathetic to his pleas about how he should be able to keep the house. I’d like a free home too, the court isn’t lining up to give me one. Had I thought I would get to keep the house without making the payments, I would have agreed to pay $650,ooo for a decrepit POS cape five years ago.

    All this Poon-style “Produce the Note” crap is just that. Because the note itself is a negotiable item, producing the note is meant to protect the borrower from having to pay twice to two different parties on the same debt. When the deadbeat homeloaner hasn’t even paid once… well what do they expect?

    The quick solution is, if the foreclosing bank lacks good title, then shield the homedebtor from subsquent liabilty from whoever it is that actually DOES hold title after its all sorted out. Don’t leave the deadbeat in his free house for two years. Put the house back into the stream of commerce to a party that can afford it at the current market value. The lawyers among the banks can fight out later who owes what to whom — since they are just arguing over dollars and cents, not posession of the house.

  124. Poltroon says:

    moose (128)-

    It’s all theoretical fun and games until you come across a guy who’s getting foreclosed and you see an assignment that is an obvious forgery…and the assignment itself is a fraudulent conveyance, since the servicer never owned the loan they sold.

    I can show you a short sale two miles from my office where the homeowner is a sharp guy (a CFP) who discovered Wells Fargo doing all the above and used it to live in his house for almost three years payment free, then short sale the property- which was worth close to 800K- for 510K. He essentially accomplished all of this by blackmailing Wells.

    Moose, you are right when you mention that courts often don’t care about the particulars, just that the borrower didn’t pay. That’s definitely the position of NJ courts so far. However, lenders are more than willing to submit to blackmail to keep their dirty deeds under wraps.

    My position is: all’s fair.

  125. Poltroon says:

    BTW, the guy I mentioned in the example above short sold his house for 510K to a straw man entity in which he has an interest. He’s paying them “rent”, never moved out of the house, and will no doubt buy it back at some point down the road.

  126. Mr Hyde says:


    I know its a pipe dream, but i just want to see rule of law. Its not about free houses or other wise. The banks are issuing fraudulent documents to support foreclosures on homes they have no claim to. As far as the home owner goes, take a look at the original mortgage papers. if they lied on them then hit the home owner too. If the homeowner was on the up and up then they may still end up with the house. If so its the banks fault.

    It also bothers me that a judge would ignore that a bank has no or false claim to foreclose simply because the home owner wasn’t paying. In such a case one of the parties is breaking the law and one is not. Non payment is covered under contract, let the legal holder of the mortgage rights deal with the person.

  127. Anon E. Moose says:

    Pol [129];

    Q: Mr. Homedebtor, have you made the monthly payments as agreed in the mortgage?

    There’s a world of difference between:

    A: Well, you see Judge, my wife [the teacher] was out of work for a few months [last summer] and then we had alot of expenses associated with my son’s school [travel baseball league] and I was sick [of making mortgage payments instead of taking vacations].


    A: Your honor, all payments have been made regularly into an interest-bearing escrow account as soon as we learned of these defects in the chain of title and advised the servicer of the same. We are ready and willing to tender all payments in arrears as soon as the servicer can establish that they are entitled to recive them.

    Cash == credibility. Just like business.

  128. Anon E. Moose says:

    Hyde [131];

    If the bank lied and forged papers to foreclose on a mortgage…

    which the deadbeat lied to about income/assets/whatever to induce the bank to make in the first place…

    I say a pox on both their houses. “He who comes into equity must come with clean hands.”

  129. Anon E. Moose says:

    Re [133];

    Everet v. Williams (Ex. [Exchequer] 1725), “The Highwayman’s Case,” 9 L.Q. Rev. 197 (1893) (One highwayman sued another, claiming that he was entitled to a larger share of the loot from a series of joint robberies. The suit was dismissed, both were hanged, and the plaintiff’s lawyers were fined for having brought a suit “both scandalous and impertinent.”)

  130. plze! says:


    i’m sorry for your friends. i know lots of unemployed people from public universities too. it’s rampant

  131. Essex says:

    125. The PhD was always risky. My dad talked me out of one years ago with some of the best advice I have received from him.

  132. chicagofinance says:

    Whole Foods Middletown…which also carries BT….the guy was raving about ORXII…

    119.Libtard says:
    September 29, 2010 at 3:09 pm
    ChiFi (57): beer-rasputinXII.
    Same brewer of my beloved Brother Thelonious so it’s probably pretty good. I would splurge just to find out. Who carries it?

  133. chicagofinance says:

    BTW – WF M carries hard alcohol now….guy said that one of the new brands of Vodka is going to give out samples on Saturday………it should get pretty rowdy in there methinks…..

  134. dan says:

    Oh well, got outbid in Glen Ridge. How I’ll get over not paying five digit taxes, I’ll never know.

  135. chicagofinance says:

    Why would anyone want to hang out with a bunch of PhD’s? Not uniformly, but in general those who want to spend an extra 4-5 years beyond a Bachelor’s pursuing academia are a unique breed that is not for me. Since they love the ivory tower, they tend to look at business with disdain. Then they tend to continue their lives in academia by inculcating undergrads with their narrowminded political agenda that is divorced from reality.

    113.plze! says:
    September 29, 2010 at 2:45 pm
    i used to live in chapel hill, NC—best place i’ve lived. tons of educated folks-i think it has one of the highest phDs per capita. beautiful weather, ocean nearby, cheap housing, and lots of large corporations. dont believe the stereotypes. i now live one of the best, exclusive towns in NJ. NC was better!

  136. Juice Box says:

    re: #113 – plze! little Blog history, I mentioned everyone’s favorite noodler Mitchel and to bait him to come back to this blog and tell us all how great Charlotte is and how his wonderful development is keeping the gang bangers in check.

    No thanks for NC I don’t want to live in a state that has more hogs than people.

  137. Essex says:

    140. My favorite PhD….

    Lot’s of Pharma PhDs who would dispute your rather lame generalization there son.

  138. Barbara says:

    these people can’t use them in good economies either, but I think you already knew that.

  139. Essex says:

    I dunno Barbara. The whole Uni thing with adjuncts in a travesty, but I think a good PhD still has merit. You can’t really get a tenure track Uni job without one. And ‘no’ I don’t mean the mail order kind. The real ones where the earned degree represents research and commitment !

  140. Essex says:

    138. Whole Foods? Huge ripoff. Trader Joes FTW.

  141. Punch My Ticket says:

    Moose [132]

    You’re putting the cart before the horse. The homedebtor is almost certainly a skunk but that’s irrelevant. Surely you know about the legal concept of standing. A person has no standing to even bring suit, never mind win, if they haven’t been harmed. “Produce the note” is the equivalent of “produce evidence that you have been harmed.” If the bank or servicer or trust can’t even do that – and filing fraudulent documents is imho strong evidence that they can’t – they should be shown the door of the courthouse. And sanctioned.

  142. Punch My Ticket says:

    Nom [110]

    Seen me defending Obama?

    I subscribe to Mark Twain’s description of politicians as the “only native criminal class”, although the last few years made me question the “only”.

  143. Barbara says:

    I agree I was just busting on unaccredited bible college PH. D.s . I’ve seen some of the “final exam” material for these, I kid you not…..multiple choice!

  144. Essex says:

    I know, but surely you must say that anyone old enough to attend college you decides to waste any amount of time and money on something like that with a reasonable expectation that the investment will pay off. Is clinically stupid.

  145. Essex says:

    you decides…is of course WHO decides.

  146. Anon E. Moose says:

    Punch [146];

    Probable standing is a pretty low bar as a threshold issue. Surely the servicer can produce at least one check from the deadbeat, payable to them, referencing a file/account number or the like, in an amount that corresponds to the PITI on the document with the deadbeat’s signture. Two documents (copy of check, copy of note) settles the issue to the extent necessary to justify inquiring into the status of payment.

  147. Juice Box says:

    JPM hating 56k foreclosures, seems their Robo affidavit signers have been busy too.

  148. Essex says:

    Is it me or have the wheels essentially come off of society?

  149. Wag says:

    Essex (153) – Wheels have been off for quite some time, now grinding on the undercarrige.

  150. 6sssdddsssssssssssscxgd says:

    Essex, these people were born in and raised in cults, they know nothing about it. Not dumb, just isolated.

  151. Barbara says:

    that was me ^ . Baby daughter got on the keyboard.

  152. Punch My Ticket says:

    Moose [151]

    Surely the servicer can produce at least one check from the deadbeat

    I wouldn’t count on it.

    Recent evidence is that the notes themselves are hard to come by. Foreclosures everywhere are proceeding on lost note affidavits. So much effort went into streamlining the paperwork that chances are it just didn’t get done.

    If you’re cavalier about the details on the note – a negotiable instrument worth hundreds of thousands – chances are your records of a negotiable instrument worth hundreds or thousands – the deadbeat’s first payment e.g. – are faulty to non-existent.

  153. Pat says:

    “Why would anyone want to hang out with a bunch of PhD’s? Not uniformly, but in general those who want to spend an extra 4-5 years beyond a Bachelor’s pursuing academia are a unique breed that is not for me. Since they love the ivory tower, they tend to look at business with disdain. Then they tend to continue their lives in academia by inculcating undergrads with their narrowminded political agenda that is divorced from reality.”

    I disagree after “Then.”

    Should read, ” Then they tend to continue their lives in the Federal government closing their eyes to the fact that private employees are footing the bill for their 3- and 4- child households, while inculcating their offspring with their narrowminded political agenda that is divorced from reality.”

  154. Punch My Ticket says:

    Yo Nom,

    I sent a note to the NYT reporter who wrote about the last expat report in late April, asking if he knew why Timmay was two months past due. He said he would follow up. Maybe if the Times calls, Treasury will get off its duff.

  155. Pat says:

    Since moving to the DC metro area, I’ve certainly become much more likely to criticize the state of Federal employment costs vs. productivity.

    I feel like Richard Gere in “Pretty Woman” when he reveals that he spent $$$ in therapy in order to be able to say, “I’m ANGRY.”

  156. dan says:

    You know what they’re thinking at the banks, “If only we had Mexican quants review the affadavits before ……”

  157. sas3 says:


    “Then they tend to continue their lives in academia by inculcating undergrads with their narrowminded political agenda that is divorced from reality.”

    All PhDs go into academia? Whatever you are smoking, please share it at the GTG.

  158. Punch My Ticket says:

    I rather like your new name, Barbara.

  159. sas3 says:

    #158, Pat…

    Private contracts with PhDs fleece the govt very well.

    At least it is heartwarming that the narrative here has narrowed from a hatred of 1.5 Billion people to a much smaller group. As someone that didn’t belong to the former, I found that narrative deeply offensive (enough to take a cheap shot and in the process p!ss off Grim), but as a someone that belongs to the latter group, I find the narrative mildly amusing.

    For what it’s worth… I strongly urged to someone with a recent PhD to take a job in a Natl lab as opposed to Pharma (bigger salary) because I believe he can contribute much more as a fed scientist. So, if you see a young guy that moved to DC recently with a PhD and got a govt job, blame me!


  160. Pat says:

    Why does he have to take a gubmint job?

    What’s wrong with him?

  161. yo'me says:

    Don’t the Title company have a copy of all signed papers that the bank needs to prove ownership of the mortgage? Title company being liable for accuring problems on the title?

  162. Mr Hyde says:


    you are essentially suggesting that the home owner be held to a higher standard then the bank. You are ok with courts allowing banks to foreclose based on fraudulent documentation? The problem is so widely documented at this point that all foreclosures should be required to prove the veracity of their claims before going forawrd. It’s so bad that it’s now safe to assume that affidavit produced by the banks is more likely to be fraudulent then it is legitamite.

  163. Mr Hyde says:


    most of the mortgages run through MERS, which is a huge portion are likely to be flawed due to the process used. On top of that the method with which banks were buying, selling and collateralizing mortgages was likely to cause potentially fatal defects in the standing of the title relative to the note.

  164. Al Gore says:

    Here’s what Paulson sees coming:
    Low double-digit inflation by 2012, killing the bond market, and restoring strength to equities and gold.
    2% GDP growth for 2011 and 2012
    Gold hitting $2,400 to $4,000

  165. Essex says:

    What you will find sas3 is that folks love to generalize and look for easy answers. That’s the Merikan way .

  166. Al Gore says:

    “The American and global economy have already been looted and destroyed beyond repair. Most serious economists will admit that governments have already exhausted their capital by bailing out the banks and taking on unprecedented amounts of debt. The bailouts and recent return to high profits were just the final phase of the looting and a further consolidation of wealth on an unprecedented scale. There are still tens of trillions of dollars in debt hidden off-the-books and hundreds of trillions of dollars in dark pools of derivative liability. As the downturn continues, there is nothing left to revive the economy, the reserves and safety nets have already been stretched to their limits.

    We have a political and economic system that has been overrun by organized corruption and theft. Along with a mass media system that does not inform the populace and has effectively marginalized and isolated the majority of the population. Meanwhile, bubbling just under the surface is a very heavily armed population with a militia movement that has doubled in size over the past year, and their memberships continue to rapidly grow. Without the necessary general political intelligence or infrastructure to organize an effective mass non-violent movement, we are steamrolling toward spontaneous riots and outbursts of armed insurrection.

    In other words, as this economic downturn continues, what is now a passive and confused population will eventually devolve into an explosion of violence. Without a coherent non-violent movement to provide a viable alternative, without an outlet for severe and legitimate grievances that provides any chance for urgently affecting necessary political change, people will resort to violence as a last desperate act of vengeance and frustration. As time passes, these forgotten and isolated people, tens of millions of them, are quickly running out of options, and they will act out just as exploited people throughout the world always have.”—The-Global-Banking-Cartel-Has-One-Card-Left-to-Play/10748/0/5/5/Y/M.html

  167. Fast Eddie says:

    “People need to shake off this lethargy. People need to buck up,” Mr. Obama told Rolling Stone in an interview to be published Friday. The president told Democrats that making change happen is hard and “if people now want to take their ball and go home, that tells me folks weren’t serious in the first place.”

    Gee, what a positive image this man portrays. He’s a beacon of optimism and assurance, is he not? I guess when there’s no one left to blame, it’s time to start blaming your own.

  168. sas3 says:

    #170, “… folks love to generalize and look for easy answers.”

    Generalization? I usually provide counter examples.

  169. sas3 says:

    Essex, I owe you an apology… Didn’t read right… Sorry.

  170. Al Gore says:

    Some good riot footage out of Spain. Its about time.!

  171. Essex says:

    no sweat there sastreee. no sweat.

  172. chicagofinance says:

    145.Essex says:
    September 29, 2010 at 4:54 pm
    138. Whole Foods? Huge ripoff. Trader Joes FTW.

    Exactly wrong…..Trader Joe’s is good, but limited…..

  173. sas3 says:

    Pat, “Why does he have to take a gubmint job?”

    For someone interested in an applied research career and with a desire to work on longer-term research, federal labs seem to be the only major game in town.

    From an employer’s perspective [or tax payer’s perspective], when an employee doesn’t have to worry about day to day job stability, the employee can blossom or can become a lazy paper pusher. Even if one really good scientist emerges for every X PhDs turning into paper pushers, it is still a good deal for the employer [for reasonable values of X].

  174. yo'me says:


    At the center of the controversy are employees of mortgage lenders or servicers who sign affidavits supporting foreclosures that have to be cleared by judges in many states.

    With so many foreclosures to process, there’s concern that such affidavits are signed without verifying whether loan documents and other records have the correct information. The integrity of the process is a key component in how judges decide that people’s houses can be taken and given back to the bank.

    Dustin Zacks, an attorney at Ice Legal PA — a firm based in Royal Palm Beach, Fla., that specializes in foreclosure defense — is representing some homeowners who are trying to stop their houses from being seized through foreclosure.

    Zacks said he deposed a Chase document signer called Beth Ann Cottrell who said she and eight others in her department signed about 18,000 foreclosure-related documents a month, including affidavits of indebtedness.

    “Our first question was whether she had personal knowledge of the documents she was signing about,” Zacks said in an interview. “Her answer was no. It’s shocking that they would use this as evidence to seize someone’s property.” Read the May 17 deposition of Cottrell.

  175. Essex says:

    177. Whole Paycheck. Bought a pint of chicken rice soup and a gallon of milk there last week. $12.

  176. Essex says:

    Don’t get me wrong, I like to blow money like the next upwardly mobile moron….but Whole Foods takes it to a new level.

  177. Mr Hyde says:


    Take a look at this!!!

    The banks should have presumption of honesty in foreclosure procedings at this point!!!

    Now lets be honest with ourselves. If all parties involved were held to the letter of the law, then housing would instantly collapse. a substantial portion of mortgages have been permanently separated from the notes due to the MERS process which means they are now unsecured notes. It also means that the collaterlized mortgage instruments the banks sold were fraudulent and the banks would have to buy them back at face value. it would also mean that some substantial number of recent sales and foreclosures were fraudulent and would have to be unwound.

    Housing would become radioactive over night and no one in their right mind would even consider putting pen to paper in a home purchase until everyone was sure the titles were clear. it would also become virtually impossible for banks to foreclose on a large number of homes since their fraudulently and occasionally incorrectly transferred titles from one entity to the next.

    For all intents and purposes this would probably crash global markets due to the massive and sudden forced unwinding of MBS.

    We are nothing but a banana republic once we repudiate the rule of law. In my opinion we have clearly done so and continue to do so because we refuse to acknowledge the mess we have created for ourselves. The rule of law must come before all else in a just and free society.

  178. Mr Hyde says:

    The banks should NOT have presumption of honesty in foreclosure proceedings at this point!!!

  179. Mr Hyde says:

    If state and federal prosecutors are not bringing charges against the individuals and the corporations producing these forged documents, is there any question of use being a banana republic at this point, selectively enforcing laws based on your financial or political standing?!

  180. Fabius Maximus says:

    Banana Republicans, that’s priceless

    “Will they accept banana republic tactics when they are in the minority in the same way they accept them now that they are in the majority? ”

    The simple answer is that they were recently in the minority and had to sit by and watch GWB wipe his corn hole with the constitution

    As with your views on Elena Kagan, there is a simple two word answer to anything you can level at DoJ under this administration. Ashcroft/Gonzales.

    Now where did that 4th amendment go? I thought it was round here somewhere.

  181. Poltroon says:

    moose (151)-

    How do you finesse the fraudulent conveyance issue?

  182. Essex says:

    Unreal. Un “f&&&king” real.

  183. Essex says:

    32. H.L. Mencken — funny….my dad sent me the same thing when I forwarded him yet another story this AM.

  184. sas3 says:

    Really sad…

    Suicide Follows Hurtful Web Broadcast

    Tyler Clementi, left, committed suicide after Dharun Ravi, center, and Molly Wei allegedly broadcast an intimate encounter of his on the Internet.

  185. Yikes says:

    jamil says:
    September 28, 2010 at 9:33 pm

    “I just wish we could get away from the Dem-Rep smokescreen.”

    Yes, but at least on the GOP side, people are doing something and getting rid of the Old GOP Guard.
    Leftists love to deride tea parties, but both the movement and the ideas they propose are more popular than any competing movement or idea in the US right now.

    When the Fraud Party goes down in flames in November, we’ll all get a good laugh

  186. Fabius Maximus says:

    #51 Jamil

    November 3rd w can review your calls, just like we did last time.

    I didn’t have a chance to respond to your last healthcare post, but I will say the dems never had a 60 vote filibuster proof majority. It was always the opposition of 40+1.
    Joking Joe Liberman has 72 Healthcare companies headquartered in CT. That was the biggest opposition at the end.

  187. Al Gore says:


    “When the Fraud Party goes down in flames in November, we’ll all get a good laugh”

    When the IMF comes to town and strips social security, unemployment, welfare, and raises taxes Ill get an even bigger laugh. Of course this will all be preceded by the the biggest event in world monetary history. The collapse of Keynesian economics, fiat money, and therefore the economic model for communist programs.

    Folks should be rejoicing. Its all coming to an end.

    “If all that Americans want is security, they can go to prison. Theyll have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government.”


  188. willwork4beer says:

    #57 Chicago

    Sadly, I’ve never tried Old Rasputin XII, but I have to agree with Stu at 119. North Coast is one of the best craft brewers going. I’ve tried the majority of their catalog and their beers are consistently outstanding. Given the style, alcohol content, finishing and reputation of the brewer, I would say that the price is in the ballpark at worst. You could probably save a buck or two elsewhere but the price you were quoted doesn’t sound outrageous.

  189. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    “Some good riot footage out of Spain. Its about time.”

    AG [175],

    Celebrating the world cup?

  190. Poltroon says:

    BC (194)-

    Celebrating their currency’s being ahead in the race to the bottom.

  191. Poltroon says:

    The Euro only looks stronger today. It is, like much other fiat one-ply, merely the least sick wildebeest in the herd.

  192. Yikes says:

    Mr Hyde says:
    September 29, 2010 at 12:46 pm


    There is a well documented negative correlation between wealth and family size.

    link to the documentation?

  193. Samivel says:

    65 – I believe you are correct in the legal morass and libilities one would be exposed to in the event a repossession action was performed w/o a legal basis. However, what is occuring is mostly political. Perhaps the attestations were misrepresentations but the contents of those filings have not been shown to be fraudulent, and were in fact correct. The grounds for a foreclosure still exist- there is a default. “Foreclosure defense” is now a cottage industry. The amount of work for lawyers dried up w/ the souring economy. Many who had simply performed a closing thought they knew mortgages. Now there are anti-foreclosure tutorials and start up kits available.

  194. Samivel says:

    If the NJ courts only cared if the mortgage payments were missed it would’t take 2 years or more to do a foreclosure in the state of NJ.

  195. Samivel says:

    146 – You cannot say a defaulted borrower is almost certainly a skunk. Not in this economy. Not w/ this unemployment rate in NJ. Many in default have lost jobs through no fault of their own and their 6 months savings has evaporated. It is what it is. That said, the rules of court do not require the original note be produced. It’s sludge come up from florida that sounds good.

  196. chicagofinance says:

    Essex says:
    September 29, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    177. Whole Paycheck. Bought a pint of chicken rice soup and a gallon of milk there last week. $12.

    Your fault dude……stay away from prepared foods and buy store brand milk…..or STFU…

    You can’t just walk in there, grab the obvious stuff and not expect to get hosed. Do you see who shops there? Do you think they give a flying fcuk? BTW the customer service rocks……you can literally return used toilet paper without a receipt for store credit…..

  197. Pat says:

    I’m not even a chocolate kind of person. But there’s something about the generic wrappers there that keeps me going back again and again for the three packs of 73% dark chocolate for a buck seventy three.

    On Sunday, this guy who was about 6′ 5″ in a black turtleneck was bending sideways over the chocolate shelves at the register and looking over the bars. His order was already rung up and being packed. I snuck my hand down because he was too slow and grabbed 6 x 3 packs. He reached out really fast as if he was going to grab my wrist and then stopped his hand and glared at me.

    That place has just as many weirdlings as any other.

    And the guy who cookes the chicken marsala yelled at my kid.

  198. Pat says:

    cooks for spellers

  199. Comrade Nom Deplume aux maison says:

    [185] fabius

    Nice nonanswer. You should look for work on MSNBC.

    BTW, I was watching some newschannel today (I surf so they blur), and there was a dem trying to advance a position about the tax rate expiration that was so false, so beyond belief, that his republican counterpart in the other frame was shaking his head and chuckling to himself. I don’t remember exactly the gist, but the principal position was that Obama wants to give you a tax cut (there is no cut here, only and extension (maybe) of current rates). And he was quite adamant and animated about this. Either this guy knew he was lying or must sing “I am Enery the Eighth, I am” to himself and believe it.

    Made me think of you.

  200. Comrade Nom Deplume aux maison says:

    [191] fabius

    Did the senate committee (controlled by dems) even put out a bill to filibuster?

    And what of the house? No filibuster there. Did the dems even draft a bill?

    Now, I may just be a knuckle-dragging conservative, but it seems to me that if you aren’t even WRITING a bill, you aren’t very serious about getting it passed.

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