Time to go?

From the Baltimore Sun:

Mortgage deduction: A sacred cow whose time is up?

Fifteen years ago, Carol Nietmann and her husband bought a spacious house in Calvert County near the Chesapeake Bay. And thanks to the time-honored tax deduction for mortgage interest, she says, their new place was a little bigger and a little nicer than they otherwise would have been able to afford.

Perhaps the most sacred of all the sacred cows in the tax code, the home mortgage deduction has long been seen as critical to a major element in the American dream — owning your own home. It’s also a boon to home builders, construction workers, the financial services industry and local governments that benefited from fatter real estate tax revenue.

But after nearly a century, the mortgage deduction may face a day of reckoning. Though out of the spotlight for the moment while the lame-duck Congress thrashes to an end, the mortgage deduction issue is likely to resurface next year when new representatives — including a lot more deficit-hawk Republicans — take their seats.

In part, the hoary deduction has a target on its back as a result of policymakers’ rethinking the whole issue of home ownership. After the havoc that followed the bursting of the housing bubble — a calamity that still shadows the U.S. economy and will for years — it’s no longer clear that near-universal home ownership should be a paramount goal.

More important, despite the deduction’s grip on the public and politicians, changing it as part of a package of other revisions offers Washington a chance to do something meaningful about the surging federal deficit — generating billions of dollars more in federal revenues that could be used to cut the deficit while inflicting surprisingly little pain on most middle-class homeowners.

However, the National Association of Realtors is already running ads warning that tampering with the deduction would hurt “hard-working American families.” The ads point out that 65 percent of the taxpayers who took the deduction made less than $100,000.

What the group doesn’t say is that about 75 percent of the entire $85.5 billion that people saved in taxes from the mortgage interest deduction in 2008 went to individuals or couples making $100,000 or more, according to an analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation of the latest data available.

Based on the committee’s numbers, taxpayers who took the mortgage deduction on average saved $2,330 in 2008. But for those reporting incomes of $200,000 and over, the average savings were nearly triple that amount.

In fact, only about one-half of all homeowners in the United States — and just one-quarter of all taxpayers — benefit from the mortgage interest deduction at all. That’s because most people don’t have home loans or don’t pay enough in mortgage interest to take advantage of the benefit.

Also left out are many homeowners in cheaper housing markets, though people with pricier homes and larger mortgages — many of them affluent younger Americans in cities on the East Coast and in California — reap a disproportionately large share of the tax savings.

This entry was posted in Economics, Mortgages, National Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

141 Responses to Time to go?

  1. Essex says:

    F I R S T!!

  2. Nomad says:

    So we take away the mtg deduction, there are a backlog of foreclosures that are going to increase housing supply, unemployment remains high, interest rates are going up, raises for those employed are minimal at best. OK, time to go out on a limb – me thinks housing prices are going to continue to go down.

    Seriously, if the prop tax deduction goes away, will some of the incremental tax revenue collected from this be allocated to local municipalities? If not, throwing on higher property taxes on the above mentioned pile of things hindering home prices exacerbates the situation.

    Gov’t is looking for a quick $$ pop I guess.

  3. cobbler says:

    Mortgage interest deduction should go, actually together with the investment interest deduction – otherwise we are in a situation when you can’t take a deduction if you live in your house but can if you rent it out. Canada never had this deduction, and has somewhat higher income taxes overall – and RE prices and their dynamics are no different than here long-term. If one can only afford a house thanks to a tax deduction, he better not buy this house…

  4. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Consumer deleveraging – intimately connected with the housing market – continues and is probably the biggest risk confronting the economy. The ratio of household debt to after-tax income fell in the third quarter to 1.22, down from its peak of 1.35 in 2007, but has further to go. For years before 2000 the ratio was less than 1. The recent decline is partly due to restraint both by borrowers and lenders but also to defaults, which could yet surge.

  5. 30 year realtor says:

    Did you see Chris Christie on 60 Minutes? We have grown callous to obesity. A hundred years ago the Fat Man in the side show would have been thinner than the Governor!

  6. chicagofinance says:

    ? Do you mean accepting?

    30 year realtor says:
    December 19, 2010 at 8:00 pm
    Did you see Chris Christie on 60 Minutes? We have grown callous to obesity. A hundred years ago the Fat Man in the side show would have been thinner than the Governor!

  7. safe as houses says:

    #5 30 year realtor

    I missed it. I was too busy eating cake to watch tv.

  8. stan says:

    watched 60 minutes. As always the board is ahead of the curve, so much so, I think Cindy is actually Meredith whitney.

    anyhoo, CC does a good job with his soundbites, hits the points, and is generally right on with a lot of things.

    (spouse works for DOL fyi) reckoning is here. pay up, or shut up. pensions will be adjusted, teachers, cops fire fighters etc will be shed unless pay and benefits are cut. Obama will be unable to bailout with the new congress.

    tick tock

  9. dan says:

    Missed 60 minutes eating hibachi in Denville with extra fried rice. What about Christie’s weight and obesity?

  10. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Apologies if already posted, but you all knew this anyway. . . .

    “Commentary: Taxes, weather take glitter off golden years

    Plenty of folks are aware of the best states for retirees. But what are the 10 worst states in which to spend your golden years?

    People of Illinois, California, New York, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Ohio, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Nevada — you probably already know the answer.

    The list, with Illinois leading the pack, comes from website TopRetirements.com. According to John Brady, president of TopRetirements.com, the 10 states earn this dubious distinction largely because of three factors: fiscal health, taxation, climate.

    As for fiscal health, six of the 10 worst states for retirees on TopRetirements.com’s list were among those just identified by a Pew Center for States report as being in “fiscal peril.”

    The report, “Beyond California: States in Fiscal Peril,” showed that “some of the same pressures that have pushed California toward economic disaster are wreaking havoc in a number of other states, with potentially damaging consequences for the entire country.”

    Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, Rhode Island and Wisconsin joined California as the 10 most troubled states, according to Pew’s analysis. . . .”


  11. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    I’m no fan of the public workers unions, and the teachers’ unions in particular, but there are things like this that I wish would allow some perspective. Perhaps the unions view their comp as combat pay:

    “A beloved Bronx teacher had a miscarriage Wednesday after she was hit trying to break up a fight between two students, sources and students told the Daily News.

    The teacher, who was four months pregnant, was teaching her fifth period Spanish class at Exploration Academy in the Claremont section of the Bronx when the assault occurred.

    A student arrived five minutes late, walked up to another student who was already seated and told him to get out of his desk, students said.

    When the seated student refused, the conflict escalated and the teacher tried to intervene. She was accidentally elbowed in the stomach and fell to the ground, crying.

    “I can’t believe it,” said Amaury Lopez, 17, a student at the school. “I can’t believe she lost her child over a fight over a chair.”

    The teacher was taken to North Central Hospital, where she miscarried. The two students involved in the incident have been suspended.

    “If I could talk to her, I would say I’m so sorry for your loss,” said Jose Vasquez, 17, a junior at the school. “I’m just furious right now.”

    Students said the teacher was “like a counselor” to lots of students.

    “All the students love her and our wishes go out to her,” said O’Neil Jones, 16, junior. “This is a super nice woman we’re talking about.”

    “This is a very sad incident and my heart goes out to [the teacher] and her family,” Deputy Mayor Dennis Walcott said in a statement.

    In a separate incident Thursday, a 49-year-old teacher was punched in the eye by a 14-year-old eighth grader at Junior High School 45 in East Harlem. The teacher got a black eye and was treated at Weill Cornell Medical Center, cops said. The student was arrested for assault and has been suspended.

    And in a third incident, a ruckus shook the hallways of Murray Bergtraum High School in Manhattan.

    The principal threatened to stop issuing bathroom passes if kids kept getting into fights, prompting students to organize a riot between 5th and 6th period.

    One student was injured and sent to the hospital, and several others are being disciplined.

    “I’ve been teaching since 1986,” said chapter leader John Elfrank-Dana, “and I’ve never seen anything like it.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/12/09/2010-12-09_beloved_teacher_suffers_miscarriage_breaking_up_classroom_fight_when_student_elb.html#ixzz18cD1WPeE

    Unions and Liberal Pols: If you want to be taken seriously by the taxpayers, stop protecting the bad teachers, overlooking (and encouraging) waste, and protecting the so-called “rights” of the future wards of our penal system.

    Conservative Pols: If you want to win on this issue, reach out to the good ones with systemic protections and financial reward; you want to keep them, right? And challenge the unions to be a good faith partner in this effort (they won’t take the challenge, but politically, it can’t hurt).

  12. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    Christie Cuts to Local Aid Make New Jersey Towns Lead U.S. Bond Downgrades

    Towns and cities in New Jersey, the second-wealthiest U.S. state, lead the nation in bond-rating downgrades this year.

    From Newark to Seaside Heights, home of MTV’s reality television show “Jersey Shore,” Moody’s Investors Service cut ratings on $1.7 billion in general-obligation debt issued by at least 23 municipalities in New Jersey this year, almost twice as much as the next-highest state, New York, according to a tally by Bloomberg News. The moves follow local-aid cuts by Democratic Governor Jon Corzine and his Republican successor, Chris Christie, who has also enacted a 2 percent annual cap on property-tax increases.

    “It’s a great referendum on my fiscal policies,” Christie, 48, said of the downgrades on Dec. 16. “It says that we’re getting our fiscal house in order. When other states get their houses in order, they will see the downgrades too.”

    The tax cap has strained municipalities’ ability to make up reduced revenue, Josellyn Yousef, a Moody’s analyst, said Dec. 16 in an e-mailed statement. She attributed a “confluence of factors” to the downgrades, including high personnel costs.

    “We’ve also witnessed cuts in state aid playing a significant role, as municipalities that were previously quite dependent on this revenue stream attempt to adjust budgets quickly in order to compensate for the revenue loss,” Yousef said. “These pressures have reduced current fund balance levels and liquidity, which in turn has translated to reduced financial flexibility.”

    New Jersey towns and cities downgraded this year include Trenton, the state capital, and New Brunswick, home to Rutgers University.

  13. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    On ’60 Minutes,’ Gov. Chris Christie says N.J. needs to cut spending

    In a segment about the future of state finances, Gov. Chris Christie appeared on CBS’s 60 Minutes on Sunday.

    Christie, who discussed the canceled rail tunnel under the Hudson River and the teacher’s union, presented New Jersey as an example of states that are spending beyond their means.

    “The federal government doesn’t have the money to paper over it anymore, either, for the states,” Christie said. “The day of reckoning has arrived.”

    The segment showcased a handful of states that have responded to fiscal problems with drastic steps. Arizona has sold its state capitol, supreme court and legislative chambers and is leasing them back from a group of investors. Illinois has stopped paying nursing homes for services, forcing them to extend their own debt limits.

    The canceling of the Access to the Region’s Core, or ARC, tunnel, by Christie and his ongoing battle with the public employee unions were used to illustrate the problems facing states.

    “I mean, listen, the bottom line is I don’t have the money,” Christie said on his decision to scrap the tunnel. “And you know what? I can’t pay people for those jobs if I don’t have the money to pay them. Where am I getting the money? I don’t have it. I literally don’t have it.”

  14. grim says:

    If you didn’t hate this place already…

    From the Star Ledger:

    Xanadu cost N.J. pensions millions earlier

    Public-employee pensions — including New Jersey’s — have lost money with a Xanadu developer before.

    The 2.2-million-square-foot shopping and entertainment center was first proposed by the Mills Corp., a Maryland-based firm that ran into financial trouble and sold itself off in pieces in 2007.

    Public pensions were among the holders of the real-estate company’s publicly traded stock. Two pension systems — in Iowa and Mississippi — became lead plaintiffs in a class-action lawsuit alleging fraud against Mills, its investment partner and auditor.

    New Jersey’s public pension system lost $4.5 million on its stake in Mills. The state pension had bought $8 million worth of Mills shares in 2001, and sold its stake for $3.5 million in 2006, state Treasury Department spokesman Andrew Pratt said. The state’s pension system — which has $71 billion in assets — has filed a claim for part of the Mills settlement, he said.

  15. Mike (18)-

    Heartwarming. I like to see automatic weapons given the respect they deserve.

  16. BTW, I fully agree the mortgage interest deduction should go. Some sort of phantom tax “savings” is a shaky reason for buying a home, and it will be fun to see any ability to tout the investment/tax reduction value of residential RE taken away from my profession.

    Of course, NAR will battle this tooth-and-nail with the same sort of fervor usually reserved for fighting higher educational standards and licensing requirements for agents.

  17. House Whine says:

    If you missed 60 minutes I believe you can always watch in on-line from their website. The segment after the Christie one was fascinating but nothing to do with $$. Had to do with the brains of a handful of people who remember every day of their life, like it was yesterday. Now that is amazing.

  18. jp says:

    mortgage interest tax deductions is the only thing that would allow a first-time home owner to be able to get by with buying a home. I really hope Congress thinks about a graduated decrease in tax deductions instead of a flat-out repeal.

  19. grim says:

    mortgage interest tax deductions is the only thing that would allow a first-time home owner to be able to get by with buying a home.

    Does this hold true across the country? Or just in the high priced areas on the coasts?

    There are probably huge swaths of America where first time borrowers would be better off taking the standard deduction.

  20. Nomad says:

    If we are getting rid of the mtg interest deduction than we also need to get rid of deductions for dependents. Deductions for chairitable donations of clothing, other products or money, scrap that too.

  21. grim says:

    I’d be fine with seeing the limit dropped to the country median, eliminated for second homes and second mortgages.

  22. Essex says:

    Make churches pay taxes.

  23. Fast Eddie says:

    Dissolve the Dept. of Education and make Unions pay a portion of their healtcare benefits. And raise the age and time of service eligibility requirements.

  24. Xroads says:

    Will Mrtge interest rate deduction bring up the flat tax debate or is this considered taboo for most politicians

  25. AG says:

    If we cut mortgage interest deduction let’s also deport every worthless gov employee and useless eater sitting on the dole. Let’s ship their fat, cake eating asses to North Korea.

  26. Confused In NJ says:

    26.Essex says:
    December 20, 2010 at 7:34 am
    Make churches pay taxes.

    Why do you only Tax Christians?

  27. Confused In NJ says:

    17.SG says:
    December 20, 2010 at 6:26 am
    The ghost towns of China: Amazing satellite images show cities meant to be home to millions lying deserted

    Sounds like Detroit?

  28. Essex says:

    30. All places of worship dumbass. thanks.

  29. Essex says:

    ….Ooooooh I’m soooooo persecuted…..ooooooooh someone puleaze Halp!!!

    It’s not Xmas its Christmas….blah blah blah

  30. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Giants win?

  31. Mike says:

    Mortgage interest deduction will be based on a salary scale and probably the second or vacation home will be discontinued. That will probably hurt the shore community RE even more.

  32. Flat tax is the way to go. However, good luck ever seeing it happen. Have to think it would be a kill shot to tax lawyers and accountants.

  33. …not to mention all the soci@lists who want to impoverish anyone who works hard and gets ahead.

  34. Squawk Box in Memphis? Hope they’re wearing Kevlar.

  35. I should call my Mom and see if she can get to where they are and get off a couple of Lee Harvey shots.

  36. 250K says:

    Another ridiculous headline from the Times:

    This Bonus Season on Wall Street, Many See Zeros

    Among the more ludicrous excerpts: “While Zeros are turning up in the ranks of back-office employees and midtier bankers and traders who typically earn $250,000 to $500,000, their bosses way up the compensation ladder are still expected to notch handsome paydays in the millions. ”

    Exactly how many back-office employees are earning typical salaries of $500,000?

    No one feels bad for me having to pay a rich person’s tax rate because of HH income of 250k. So I doubt tears will be shed for the banksters whose salaries doubled so that banks could avoid rewarding risk with excess bonuses. Now you just get rewarded all the time throughout the year.

    I’m not worried though. I hear no one will be spared.

  37. yo'me says:

    let us not forget mortgage deduction plus other deductions can bring down the tax rate of a couple or individual.It may not apply to everybody that don’t get to the $10400 standard deduction but gives a relief to the people specially middleclass in the east coast where homes start at $300k.Taking mortgage deduction and being able to deduct property tax and other expenses will still be beneficiary for high cost states but without mortgage deduction,which is the biggest expense for a borrower will hurt the so called middleclass (above $150K)high earner in the east coast.

  38. yo'me says:

    Taking out mortgage deduction and being able to deduct high cost property tax

  39. dan says:

    You know who won’t want to get rid of the mortgage interest deduction? The liberal elitists who like to dictate to us how we should all pay higher taxes to pay for public education in Montclair or Maplewood and West Orange but take advantage of the interest deductions and send their kids to private schools. Gasp, Graydon and Ellery will have to go to Montclair, Columbia or WOHS perish the thought!!!!!!

  40. Graydon M. Ellery, III says:

    dan you are evil.

  41. NJGator says:

    I’m sure all the anti-government folk in those red states will be all in favor of getting rid of one of the few deductions that favors people in the blue coastal states. Please take more of my money to send to Mississippi or Alaska.


  42. NJGator says:

    dan – The liberal elitists in Montclair are already all up in arms. Our BOE just might close our public Montessori school to give our teachers $2M in raises this year (after just spending $30M+ to build a new school). And then they are going to send Graydon and Ellery to either the Bullock School or Nishuane where they will be exposed to either crack dealers or poor minority children.

  43. ricky_nu says:

    250k re: #40

    can’t imagine that will be good for middle tier real estate in Northern Jersey……….

  44. Juice Box says:

    Get rid of deductions? We are facing trillions in annual budget shortfalls at all levels of government. Worry about getting a raise we are headed towards the Brazilification of this country, cutting deductions won’t do Jack squat.

    Juice writing in from a chair lift somewhere in Colorado…

  45. AG says:



    I agree. Also boat sales. A lot of people with the big boats finance it with a mortgage. As long as it has a galley it is considered a home.

  46. 250K says:

    rick @ 47

    I dunno, per the Times, its the jewelers who will suffer.

  47. dan (43)-

    Doesn’t matter anymore. All education is just state brainwashing.

    Better to be able to build a lean-to in 30 minutes and be a good enough shot to hit center mass at 100 yds.

  48. gator (46)-

    Hopefully, the Montessori concept will be one of the victims of the current depression.

  49. NJGator says:

    Lamar – Graydon and Ellery’s parents are already threatening a lawsuit against the district if they close Edgemont School. They want every K-5 student put back into a lottery to be reassigned if their kids are moved. Fun times.

  50. dan says:


    I keep thinking back to one of the articles you posted where the realtors are asking “Where are all the NY buyers?” and the answer is they’ve talked to their friends who overpaid for their houses and are worried about their kids going to schools with crack dealers right off the property.

  51. Good Montessori project:

    Study, research, observe local crack and smack dealers. Learn the jargon, figure out the market, then swoop in and take it over. All proceeds to fund Montessori learning in the PRM.

  52. Staying true to the Montessori concept, only inclusive, non-violent means can be used to take over the PRM drug-dealing business.

  53. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    Whats your gripe with Montessori? My limited experience with it so far has been preferable to the traditional model.

  54. dan says:


    I’m too old and slow to deal with a type 1 diabetic wife who wouldn’t last long in your new world order. I prefer going the NFL to a 36 week season and a government sponsored American Idol/Youtube network to deal with the masses.

  55. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    The teacher has spoken to me about my child’s penchant for playing tag, soldier ( and going “pew pew pew”, and rough housing on the play ground with his closer friends. All inappropriate behavior of course.

  56. I actually have no gripe with Montessori. Just get the feeling that a lot of parents who are deep into stuff like this and Waldorf learning will be among the first victims when the ultra-violence really gets going.

  57. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    Then again i don’t expect my child’s school to raise him for me and see them as only 1 facet in his education.

  58. cat (59)-

    Great. We need more schools trying to turn our kids into eunuchs.

  59. dan (58)-

    Even with a 36-week season, those NFL wusses don’t touch European soccer leagues, virtually all of whom play a 38-game schedule…NOT counting league cups and Champions League.

    Football is a degenerate sport for fat weaklings.

  60. NJGator says:

    More see walking on mortgage as a viable plan
    ‘Strategic default’ losing stigma as homes go deeper underwater


  61. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Lamar 60

    Just get the feeling that a lot of parents who are deep into stuff like this and Waldorf learning will be among the first victims when the ultra-violence really gets going.

    I actually agree with that. The majority of my sons peers have to run to mommy if they get a mosquito bite and have no concept of discipline. Do you know how many parents i hear PLEADING with their child; “please listen to me johnny, come on it’s really time to go”, as opposed to being an adult in control of the situation.

    We seem to have lost at least 2 entire generations to ” Your a special snowflake”, “have a trophy for participating, winning doesn’t matter” mentality.

  62. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    I have already explained to my son that although he may have to listen to his teachers at school, that doesn’t mean they are correct. Pewing and rough housing is encouraged int he cat household.

    I did get a few looks when my son started talking about “daddy’s Pew’ers” at school one day. My wife actually suggested we get him a toy gun to bring in for show and tell on “G” day, just to ruffle some feathers :)

  63. NJGator says:

    Lamar – Part of your project will also have to be dedicated to understanding and nurturing the “whole crack dealer”.

    I toured our Montessori school last year. Really wanted to like it because it had the early start time, a bus for Lil Gator and a really nice location right on one of our nicest parks.

    Wound up being extremely underwhelmed by all of the teachers that I met there. Lil Gator would have been bored to tears.

  64. Send Little Schrodinger to school one day with an Airsoft Tec-9 replica. Thing looks like the real f’ing deal.

    Bet teacher will have an aneurysm when he pulls out that bad boy.

  65. Don’t you nurture crack dealers with crack?

  66. NJGator says:

    Lamar – Should we be encouraging them to explore and express themselves in all illegal drug mediums? Why limit to crack when there is heroin and X too?

  67. NoArlington says:

    Bargain Alert: MLS# 1048390

    This 2bd 1 ba cape, as is, can be had for $299K (8.8K tax). Previously sold 10/7/05 for $434K. Did I mention NY view.. albeit fading just beyond the ever increasing and formidable mound known as Landfill 1-E .

  68. Confused In NJ says:

    32.Essex says:
    December 20, 2010 at 8:05 am
    30. All places of worship dumbass. thanks.

    I’m not familiar with the Congregation of Dumbass, how long have you belonged to it?

  69. Gator (70)-

    The really sad thing is that a drug gang could probably run the PRM better than Mayor Fraud and his gang of nincompoops.

    It will be fun listening to that guy talk out of both sides of his mouth when Moody’s downgrades PRM debt to about Caa.

  70. Mike says:

    AG Number 49 I know someone in LBI that considers it his vacation home and never ever takes the boat out. It’s the cheap way out when you think about it with all the utilities and waterfront view.

  71. NJGator says:

    Lamar 73 – I am sure he will start out by saying that regardless, Montclair is still the best place to live in America.

  72. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    NA [71],

    The idiot that paid 434K for that must have been spending too much time in the Silver Bell?

  73. Succubus says:

    60. Interesting point of view. Now for the real meat. Where have you proven your own skills on the field of battle? Or are your skills simply ideas?

    Why the fixation on civil war? The constant banter. You seem to have a Chip on your shoulder.

  74. AG says:


    “I’m too old and slow to deal with a type 1 diabetic wife who wouldn’t last long in your new world order. I prefer going the NFL to a 36 week season and a government sponsored American Idol/Youtube network to deal with the masses.”


  75. AG says:


    I actually got my son a cowboy plastic revolver that knocks down targets. He left the remote controlled cars and all the other crap and simply plays with that.

  76. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    I should have sent this in. It looks just like daddy’s!!!


  77. Succubus says:

    80. Did you tell him your little secret yet?

  78. Libtard says:

    Based on the number of recent drug arrests around our new school, I already suggested that the school PTA should host a Wake & Bake Sale.

  79. Succubus says:

    83. How many times a day do you look into the mirror and cry?

  80. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    Besides the local politics, My son seems to do very well in his Montessori school. The political BS is more from the parents side. From all of the looking we did, I still believe in was way better then the conventional options we had. Though the utility of Montessori also seems to depend on the learning style and personality of the child.

  81. Libtard says:

    Shortbus (84):

    Way to start off on the right foot.

  82. Nomad says:

    #64 –

    Sharga said that $300 billion worth of adjustable rate mortgages are expected to reset upward over the next 12 to 15 months, adding on average $1,000 to monthly mortgage payments on homes that already are worth 30 percent to 50 percent less than their original sale price.

    Major banks, including Bank of America and Wells Fargo, are preparing to work with these owners through modification programs that may include principal reduction or temporary interest-only loan payments until markets improve and refinancing is possible, Sharga says. ”

    Swell, BOA and WF shareholders will take it on the chin or Uncle Sam will help out. Temporary interest-only loans untile the markets improve – I don’t want to nit pick but my version of temporary is not 20 years.

  83. dan says:


    And which of your Champions League Boys would you like to put up against Ray Lewis? Besides, those soccer guys going against the NFL guys…..Literally, they would be bringing knives to a gunfight.

  84. Nomad says:

    If the PRM gets downgraded much lower, can I buy it for .20 on the $? I’d buy a $750k house in the PRM for $150k.

  85. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Interesting quote:

    In a system of production, where the entire continuity of the reproduction process rests upon credit, a crisis must obviously occur — a tremendous rush for means of payment — when credit suddenly ceases and only cash payments have validity. At first glance, therefore, the whole crisis seems to be merely a credit and money crisis. And in fact it is only a question of the convertibility of bills of exchange into money. But the majority of these bills represent actual sales and purchases, whose extension far beyond the needs of society is, after all, the basis of the whole crisis. At the same time, an enormous quantity of these bills of exchange represents plain swindle, which now reaches the light of day and collapses; furthermore, unsuccessful speculation with the capital of other people; finally, commodity-capital which has depreciated or is completely unsaleable, or returns that can never more be realised again. The entire artificial system of forced expansion of the reproduction process cannot, of course, be remedied by having some bank, like the Bank of England, give to all the swindlers the deficient capital by means of its paper and having it buy up all the depreciated commodities at their old nominal values. Incidentally, everything here appears distorted, since in this paper world, the real price and its real basis appear nowhere, but only bullion, metal coin, notes, bills of exchange, securities. Particularly in centres where the entire money business of the country is concentrated, like London, does this distortion become apparent; the entire process becomes incomprehensible; it is less so in centres of production. – Karl Marx

    Speaking on the 1857 financial crisis, Capital, Volume 3, Chapter 30, Money-Capital and Real Capital, I. pp. 478-9)

  86. chicagofinance says:

    83.Libtard says:
    December 20, 2010 at 12:25 pm
    Based on the number of recent drug arrests around our new school, I already suggested that the school PTA should host a Wake & Bake Sale.

    sing it….

  87. sas says:


    its never ending with that place.


  88. suck (77)-

    Come from a family that lost plenty to the last civil war. Grew up in a house that was a Civil War hospital for a short time.

    As for the belligerence stuff, let’s just say my aim is good & I’m itching for a fight.

  89. lib (86)-

    Guess somebody told him that douchebags fare really well here.

  90. dan (88)-

    Easy (although you don’t specify whether the competition is a football game, soccer game or knife fight; if it’s a knife fight, Lewis wins by walkover). Here’s my short list:

    1. Kolo Toure
    2. Yaya Toure
    3. Didier Drogba
    4. Andy Carroll
    5. Chris Samba
    6. Nigel De Jong (dirtiest player in the world)

  91. chicagofinance says:

    NJ “Chumperone” sent to therapy for bus trip grope spree

    A Hunterdon County, NJ dad must attend alcohol and s-x offender therapy for the next ten years under his sentencing today for drunkenly groping his son’s classmates on a bus trip to New York City.

    Reevy Huge, 66, was also sentenced to six months jail, but remains free, having already served that much time since his arrest in June outside Mars 2112.

    He’d pleaded guilty last month to a single charge of attempted s-x abuse for touching one of his son’s fifth grade classmates over her clothing on her inner thighs.

    Prosecutors had accused him of other instances of inappropriate behavior — including caressing some girls’ faces, tickling them, and telling one “You’re so pretty– you should date my son so I can see you.”

    All the while, he swigged bourbon from a water bottle, prosecutors said. When teachers demanded he stop, he allegedly became beligerent; it took nearly a dozen cops to ultimately subdue him when they busted him outside the Midtown tourist restaurant.

    “This all came about basically because of his alcohol problem,” Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Gregory Carro said after ordering Hughes to attend counseling.

    “He’s relieved this is finally over,” defense lawyer Paul Petrus said afterward. “I think the alcohol definitely brought out the activity.”

  92. Confused In NJ says:

    Private vs Public Pensions

    Defenders of public employee pension systems often make the case that pension benefits are not all that generous. The outrageous cases you see on the news — Long Island police retiring in their 40s with pensions in excess of base pay, administrators “retiring” with six-figure pensions and then going back to work with another government agency, one ex-FDNY firefighter running marathons on his $86,000 “disability” pension — are the exceptions, they say.

    The data, however, tells a different story. According to the Census Bureau, the average New York retiree receiving a corporate or union pension — a retiree from the private sector — was receiving an annual benefit of $13,100 in 2009. For state and local government retirees, that figure was more than twice as high: $27,600. And that average figure includes retirees who were part-time workers or only spent part of their careers in government; full-career retirees often do far better.

    PUBLIC: Average New York government retiree makes a $27,600 annual pension, free of state and local taxes, as well as heavily subsidized health benefits. Annual cost-of-living increases are guaranteed.

    PRIVATE: If they get to retire, the average New York private industry worker receives a $13,100 pension. But only 16% of private workers in America have a pension; most rely on a 401(k), the value of which is not guaranteed.
    To understand what sort of public pension you might be eligible for, the Empire Center for New York State Policy has created a Pension Calculator, available at nypensionbomb.org. Simply enter your age at retirement, years worked and final average salary — typically, the average of your wage earnings in your last three years worked — and you can see what benefit you would be entitled to, if you were lucky enough to work for the government.

    You can also find out that pension’s present value — how much cash you would need on hand to buy an annuity making payments equal to the pension. But sit down before you read it — in many cases, that’s an amount well into the seven figures.

    What the calculator will show you is that New York pension benefits can be extremely rich for typical employees. Consider a teacher in Albany County, retiring at 59 after a 37-year career, with a final average salary of $89,000. That teacher is eligible for a pension benefit starting at $62,745 (70.5% of final average salary) with an annual cost-of-living adjustment.

    Is your 401(k) as rich as that? Consider that a private-sector worker seeking an equivalent annuity would need a whopping $1.25 million on hand at retirement to buy it.

    The richness of benefits is even more astounding in some downstate communities. A Yonkers teacher with a master’s degree and some additional coursework could expect a final average salary just over $110,000 after 37 years worked. That translates into an annual pension of $78,255 — exempt from state and local income tax — with a present value of more than $1.5 million, assuming retirement at 59. Police and firefighters, famously, get to retire earlier with even more generous benefits

  93. grim says:

    Had to tweak 96, google scours this site daily. Would not make for a good search result.

  94. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    libtard, lamar:

    Please don’t feed the troll. Especially since he/she isn’t funny or entertaining.

    Essex makes a much more entertaining troll as of late. Feed him instead.

  95. whyoung says:


    While there are certainly some incompetent teachers, ANY discussion of our school system must include the parents taking responsibility for making sure their children are clean, properly fed, properly rested and provided with a home environment that provides a good example and guidance on morals/ethics, discipline and personal responsibility.

    You can’t expect even the best teacher to be able to make a meaningful difference to a classroom full of kids that have been up all night listening to mom and dad argue and fall asleep in class, eat primarily junk food and have never been given any real adult guidance at home.

  96. relo says:

    99: Nom,

    Have you ever seen them in the same chat?

    Essex makes a much more entertaining troll as of late. Feed him instead

  97. chicagofinance says:

    grim: thank you; clot…sorry about that…..

  98. make money says:

    A mexican guy I know changes his identity every third DWI and a few thousand in CC debt. He says it cost him $2,000. New name, birth certificate, SSN, drivers license, and a Passport. Apparently, he has a connect in somewhere in small town North Dakota that will get you get everything legit. He swears by it. Anyone heard of anything like this?

  99. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [103] relo

    “Supreme Court Chief Justice Stuart Rabner on Monday announced that six lenders suspected of irregularities will have to present a case in court next month or face having their foreclosure actions suspended.”


    Regardless of where you come out on the foreclosure issue, this represents what I view as a blatantly unconstitutional act. Unless there are some very relevant facts not reported in the story, the state supreme court is apparently conducting factfinding hearings on a matter not before the court, and then imposing a legislative solution, which is an a prior ban on access to the courts. This stinks on so many levels, it isn’t funny. And will assuredly be litigated in the federal courts.

    When I read stuff like this, I start to think Lamar is the sage one here.

  100. Libtard says:

    Make (104):

    ¡No he oído una cosa!

  101. Libtard says:

    Every time I hear or see the name Lamar, I get this wonderful image stuck inside my head…


  102. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [101] relo

    Because of the anonymity of the internet, and ability to hijack another’s sock, I don’t presume that the unusually caustic SX we hear as of late is the same SX that posted for years prior. So it could be that clot or libtard and SX are one and the same, but I doubt it. I know libtard personally and doubt he’d waste his time in that way. And Clot may be out there, but he isn’t schizophrenic.

    At least, that is what I and my personalities think.

  103. chi (96)-

    Bogus story. Anyone who knows me knows when I get smashed, I go for the M!LF types, not the kiddies.

  104. grim (98)-

    Thanks, but I don’t have much reputation left to destroy.

  105. make (104)-

    No; but if you get the info, can you forward it to me?

  106. plume (109)-

    Lamar Hunt:

    1. put soccer on the map in the US
    2. dabbled in silver from time to time


  107. joyce says:

    Because they are not in the spotlight the majority of the time, not many people care… yet the judiciary is probably the least accountable part of the government.

    It is especially true with lower court judges, whom are appointed. They can almost do anything they want; they know most won’t/can’t appeal. Even if an appeal overturns their ruling, what do they care?

  108. The judges who stand for election are scarier than the ones who are appointed. All that campaign money comes with some strings attached.

  109. Brian Sack to J6P: bend over, byatch. Next POMO takes the US’ holdings of its own debt to over 1 trill.

    “Today’s second POMO just closed and the Fed has now purchased a total of just over $14 billion in bonds maturing between 2014-2016 and 2018-2020. Brian Sack has bought another $6.8 billion in bonds, at a Submitted to Accepted ratio of 2.4x, higher than the 2.2x earlier in the day as we expected. The flow proceeds appear to have had the express designation of being used to purchase ES as the second the second [sic] POMO closed, equities ramped up. To those who care, are positioned appropriately in this Madoff-style ponzi, and hope that just like in the Madoff case will not one day be forced to clawback proceeds (under calm and collected conditions or otherwise), our sincerest congratulations. To everyone else, we would like to note that today’s 2Pm ramp in stocks comes at the cost of the Fed now being the proud owner of $991 billion in US debt. Tomorrow’s two POMOs will likely seal the deal, making the Fed the only institutional holder/hedge fund in the world to own 13 digits worth of US paper.”


  110. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [115] lamar

    Very true, but the collorary is that you can turn them out. Hard to do, but it does happen, as some Supremes in PA found out a few years back.

  111. Not THX 1168 says:

    Re #104 – Make Money

    Possible, but not probable to be truly legit. There are several possibilities:

    -The mother load would be something like it happened in Jersey City with the Hudson County Office of Vitals Statistics -someone inside was selling legit birth certificate -with it you could get everything new. That is why if you were born in Hudson County you got to get your Birth Certificate from Trenton.

    -Fake everything that would not stand up to proper time consuming scrutiny but a DWI and minor offense it works. This is the most likely. Time consuming scrutiny is the key word.
    You have to remember that each state has its own database – State Criminal Information Computer & the Dept of Justice’s National Criminal Information Computer. Fingerprints are kept by Dept of Justice in 3 different files – The amount of useless, double entry and wrong information is staggering and with the push for national IDs of different nature – the ID once gotten gives the impostor and certain level of trust that if you were to be skeptical you would see right through as an impostor. Add to this that fact that in this country private and public information is so link that by mistake or intentional misinformation you can easily start your own double credit file, by using a couple of digits off on your SS and a misspelling. So now you are someone new in ChoicePoint computers and slowly a new entity is created. Think what lawyers do with off the shelves corporation that are created and sold for privacy.

    The fact is that the “bad” guys actually are able to move a bit easily in a police state/authoritarian papers state than in a open non-paper please society, because the authority implied by the “papers” tend to override any critical thinking as the “bad” guys moves around.

  112. relo says:

    108: Nom,

    I was proposing that Essex (or this incarnation, to your point) = Succubus.

  113. relo says:


    Mama is getting an elliptical contraption for Xmas (at her request). I didn’t even have to suggest taking the card, which is fortunate as my pimp hand isn’t strong. The over/under on that scenario was fat lip + 1 week involuntary celibacy.

  114. NJGator says:

    pimp hand…that’s like so 2007.

  115. Confused In NJ says:

    31 cities’ tap water has cancer-causing hexavalent chromium, study says
    By Brett Michael Dykes
    Mon Dec 20, 1:28 pm ET
    The Environmental Working Group released a report Monday indicating that millions of Americans are regularly drinking hexavalent chromium, made famous in the film “Erin Brockovich” as a carcinogen, through their tap water.

    The group — whose study was first reported in a story Sunday by the Washington Post’s Lyndsey Layton — tested water from 35 U.S. cities and found that samples from 31 cities contained hexavalent chromium. The highest concentrations were found in Norman, Okla.; Honolulu; and Riverside, Calif. The substance had been a widely used industrial chemical for decades and has evidently leached into the groundwater in many areas.

    The EWG report states:

    “Despite mounting evidence of the contaminant’s toxic effects, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has not set a legal limit for chromium-6 in tap water and does not require water utilities to test for it. Hexavalent chromium is commonly discharged from steel and pulp mills as well as metal-plating and leather-tanning facilities. It can also pollute water through erosion of natural deposits.

    “The authoritative National Toxicology Program (NTP) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has said that chromium-6 in drinking water shows ‘clear evidence of carcinogenic activity’ in laboratory animals, increasing the risk of gastrointestinal tumors. Just last October, a draft review by the EPA similarly found that ingesting the chemical in tap water is ‘likely to be carcinogenic to humans.’ Other health risks associated with exposure include liver and kidney damage, anemia and ulcers.”

    Drinking-water supplies all over the country are increasingly tainted by chemicals used in natural gas drilling. And Erin Brockovich, for her part, told the EWG that she’s rather astonished to find that hexavalent chromium is still a prospective health threat in so many communities.

    “It is sometimes difficult to understand why I still have to warn the public about the presence of hexavalent chromium in drinking water 23 years after my colleagues and I first sounded the alarm,” Brockovich told the EWG. “This report underscores, in fairly stark terms, the health risks that millions of Americans still face because of water contamination.”

    The list of cities found to have hexavalent chromium in the municipal water supplies are as follows:

    • Honolulu, HI
    • Bend, OR
    • Sacramento, CA
    • San Jose, CA
    • Los Angeles, CA
    • Riverside, CA
    • Las Vegas, NV
    • Salt Lake City, UT
    • Scottsdale, AZ
    • Phoenix, AZ
    • Albuquerque, NM
    • Norman, OK
    • Omaha, NE
    • Madison, WI
    • Milwaukee, WI
    • Chicago, IL
    • Ann Arbor, MI
    • Louisville, KY
    • Cincinnati, OH
    • Buffalo, NY
    • Syracuse, NY
    • Pittsburgh, PA
    • Villanova, PA
    • Boston, MA
    • New Haven, CT
    • New York, NY
    • Bethesda, MD
    • Washington, DC
    • Atlanta, GA
    • Tallahassee, FL
    • Miami, FL

  116. Only losers need to drink clean water.

  117. Great. When ethanol-15 starts going to every gas station in the US, soon afterwards all our gasoline-powered stuff is gonna start breaking down.

    “So I shuffle and back-peddle a bit and listen while this guy explains to me that when alcohol exceeds 10% of regular gas it dissolves plastic engine parts. Things like fuel-lines or float gaskets in the carburetor. When the mixture is too rich the engine burns hot and wears out the rings. He explains that the legal limit is 10% but that all the fuel distributors cheat and mix in some extra alcohol so they can make a buck. When the mix gets to 15% it’s toxic for two cycle engines. And that is what killed my machines. He pulls off the gas line and shows me that it has deteriorated to the point where it has fused shut.”


  118. wheaties says:

    Great, and now they’ve decided to suspend foreclosures yet again… These are all uncontested foreclosures, i.e. everyone involved knows they got a loan and aren’t paying it. Stupid, stupid, stupid:


  119. Nomad says:

    you will find hexavalent chromium in areas where there is heavy mfg / steel production. I did not see Detroit or Cleveland on the list which is interesting considering how polluted the rivers (rouge and cuyahoga) once were.

  120. yome says:

    Cars on the road today are designed to take maximun E10.15 % ethanol will break the engine.Are they going to junk all the cars on the road today?

  121. yo (127)-

    I think E-15 is the gubmint’s endgame plan for trapping everyone in the US in one place.

  122. Just hoping Vikes-Bears yields lots of injuries. Would also be nice to see the Vikes fans pelt the team with snowballs.

  123. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    yome 127

    Think about the economic boost to the car manufacturers!!!!!

  124. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    i may be wrong, but i thought premium fuel wasnt cut with alcohol

  125. deadbeat says:

    121: Gates,

    You give me too much credit. I first heard the reference on Howard Stern. He was interviewing Snoop Dogg who used the phrase. That was probably 10 years ago. At least.

  126. Confused In NJ says:

    123.Lamar Asperger says:
    December 20, 2010 at 6:06 pm
    Only losers need to drink clean water

    The list then is of places to move to.

  127. nj escapee says:

    Cat, Just saw this in Islamorada, Fl: Sunoco 90 is 100% petroleum. 93 has up to 10% methanol. 90 costs .25 more per gallon.

  128. New in FL (ex -NJ) says:

    Miami water is delicious… no joke. At least where I am, just west of Aventura. Maybe we have just the right % of hexavalent chromium.

  129. nj escapee says:


  130. nj escapee says:


  131. chicagofinance says:

    Man …clot you are on a roll today…..must be the holiday spirit….

  132. 250K says:

    Not sure I think Larry David’s Op-ed on the tax cut extension is all that funny.


    Lumps a guy worth $300 million together with responsible folks who might have half a million saved up between 401ks, investments and savings. Makes them equally evil.

    You want to tell me I am comfortable living in NJ in a decent town on 250k a year, fine. Don’t tell me I am rich.

  133. Kicker says:

    njrereport.com – da mejor. Guardar va!


  134. auto loans for bad credit I’ve been looking at alot of different for sites to help me with credit info. Much appreciated.

Comments are closed.