Foreclosure a big bargain? Maybe not.

From HousingWire:

Falling REO inventory dries up foreclosure discounts

Some metro areas across the U.S. are experiencing steep discounts on foreclosed properties – upwards of 27% in some cases – but the overall mark-down is not as deep as it seems, Zillow said in a new report.

The online real estate listing firm said the national-foreclosure discount on distressed properties is about 7.7%, a paltry amount considering how much lower REOs sell for in certain locales.

Truth is, there are fewer foreclosures out there. Last month, RealtyTrac the online marketplace for foreclosures, reported a yearly decrease in 131 out of the nation’s 212 metropolitan areas.

“Two-thirds of the nation’s largest metros posted decreases in foreclosure activity in the third quarter, indicating that most of the nation’s housing markets are past the worst of the foreclosure problem” said Daren Blomquist, vice president at RealtyTrac.

Zillow uses a different methodology, of course, and compares the sales price of a foreclosure to the estimated-non-distressed sale level of the exact same property.

Metros like Pittsburgh and Cleveland experience foreclosure discounts as steep as 27.4% and 25.8%, respectively.

“The smallest foreclosure discount is found in places where competition for homes is so high, people there are willing to pay the same amount for a foreclosure re-sale that they would for a non-distressed home simply to take advantage of historic affordability,” said Zillow chief economist Stan Humphries. “Additionally, in areas such as Phoenix and Las Vegas, where not long ago one out of every two homes sold was a foreclosure re-sale, buying a foreclosure is no longer just for investors.”

Sacramento is a market where the foreclosure discount is a small 0.7% difference from an average property price. In the high-priced Los Angeles and New York markets, foreclosure discounts are now running at 4.2% and 15.5%, respectively.

This entry was posted in Economics, Foreclosures, Housing Recovery. Bookmark the permalink.

189 Responses to Foreclosure a big bargain? Maybe not.

  1. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Why the ‘Foreclosure Discount’ Is Helping Home Prices.

    Foreclosed properties are selling at less of a discount to traditional home resales, helping to explain a surprisingly strong turnaround in home prices in a growing number of housing markets this year.

    Nationally, the “foreclosure discount” stood at around 7.7% in September, according to an analysis from Zillow. That number estimates the difference between the discount a buyer might receive on a bank-owned property versus a traditional home purchase. One year ago, that discount stood at 9%, and three years ago it peaked at nearly 24%.

    Foreclosures have accounted for a shrinking share of home sales in more markets over the past year, and this also helps explain why prices are doing better. Home prices are rising, consequently, because there are fewer foreclosures selling as a share of total sales, and those foreclosed properties are also trading at less of a discount than they were one year ago.

  2. Jill says:

    Wow! First!

  3. The Original NJ ExPat says:


  4. grim says:

    Some more on the BoA/ML Housing Forecast from CR:

    Merrill Lynch Revises up 2012 House Price Forecast to 5% increase

    Back in March, we called the bottom in national home prices. It appears that while we are correct on the timing, we understated the magnitude of the turn. We revised up our forecast in August, but did not go far enough and hence are revising our trajectory again. We now look for S&P Case Shiller prices to be up 5.0% YoY this year (Q4/Q4), compared to our prior forecast of 2.0%. … Taking a longer perspective, we look for average home price appreciation of 3.3% over the next ten years or a cumulative gain of about 36%. This will modestly outpace the rate of inflation.

    Our forecast still assumes some slowing in home prices into the end of the year. We forecast S&P Case Shiller national prices to be up 5.6% q/q saar in Q3, following a 9.3% gain in Q2. We look for essentially flat prices in Q4 and a decline of 1.6% in Q1 before prices resume their upward trend. It is important to remember that the housing market is subject to volatility in the best of times; in this distorted market, we cannot expect a smooth pattern.

    The key factor driving the increase in home prices is a better alignment of housing supply and demand. Inventory of homes for sale has declined markedly. On an absolute level, listed inventory is at the lowest since 1Q05. And even after accounting for the slow pace of sales, it only takes 5.9 months to clear inventory. Supply is even lower for new construction homes …

    While the initial turn higher in demand was driven by investors, it appears that more recent gains can be attributable to primary homebuyers. The latest results from the Campbell HousingPulse survey shows an increase in the share of sales to current homeowners and a decline in investor share over the past few months …

  5. seif says:

    Grim – do you have a personal forecast for NNJ RE over the next 6-12 months? Would love to hear from 30-year as well if you are out there. Thx.

  6. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  7. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Repost of Brian’s post from the tail of last thread:

    The drinks were on Sandy!

    A Brooklyn marina pub broke off from its main structure during the hurricane — and floated two miles before landing on a residential street, treating stunned residents there to its well-stocked bar for an after-storm bash.

    “We had a big party. We had nothing else to do while we were waiting for everything else to dry, and this was a great opportunity to get our minds off everything,” said Michael Sarrell, 27, one of the Gerritsen Beach residents who took solace in the battered Gateway Marina bar that came to rest just outside their door.

    Lisa Mauceri for the Mail
    Lisa Mauceri for the Mail PUB CRAWL: Cops close up “Sandy’s Bar,” which became a party spot after Sandy tore it form its Mill Basin foundation and carried it – its booze intact – two miles to Gerritsen Beach.
    The bar — which residents identified as a chunk of the marina establishment on federal parkland on Flatbush Avenue — had been lifted from its foundation in Mill Basin during Superstorm Sandy and drifted in swollen Deep Creek Bay, past the Belt Parkway, all the way west to the dead-end block at Madoc Avenue and Keen Court in Gerritsen Beach.

  8. seif says:

    from late yesterday:

    Mike – whose truth? you think the republicans lost because they were more concerned with “truth?”

    Joyce – I agree that the two parties are very much the same in many ways but there are differences – whether they are “just wedge issues” is an opinion – but there are differences and some of those differences matter to me…like healthcare for 30 million people (no pre-existing, no caps, etc.), like not bowing to extremists on your furthest wings, etc. otherwise we will just have to agree to disagree.

  9. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Cloudy with a chance of tax increases.

    do you have a personal forecast for NNJ RE over the next 6-12 months?

  10. seif says:

    Breaking News: JJ and Gary were spotted together heading cross country in a VW Bug convertible heading to Washington State in hopes to finally secure legal ratification for a love they have felt in their hearts for a long time. Britney Spears was reportedly blasting from the stereo.

  11. can i AX a question? says:

    How many Supreme Court justices will be appointed the next four years?

  12. Brian says:

    Expat, I love hearing stories like that one.

  13. grim says:

    7 – Best story of the storm

  14. seif says:

    9 – taxes actually went down on homes in The Fly last year, Believe It or Not (said in your best laboring Jack Palance voice).

    Thx for the insight but I am more interested in home price.

  15. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    My sister lives in Peapack-Gladstone. She lives in a beautiful $1 million dollar house, she’s not under water, and her taxes have gone down every year for 5 years now. Her taxes are now under $20K, whereas they used to be $25K. They bought it for $1.6 million with a $575K down payment 6 years ago. It’s a very big house, so big they misplaced their equity somewhere and can’t seem to find it.

    9 – taxes actually went down on homes in The Fly last year, Believe It or Not (said in your best laboring Jack Palance voice).

  16. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Seif who said that 30 million wanted insurance? should they be forced into a market place they were not participating in? this has been rehashed here a thousand times.

    As written the constitution and bill of rights protected us from things the government could do to us. Over the last one hundred years natural law has been tossed for the greater good are we any better for it. Increasing levels of debt, incarceration rates above some despotic third world sh!tholes, police state style authoritarianism. war upon war. Personnaly I would like the federal government go back to its intended functions and let the states govern as they see best, as was intended. At least then I can move somewhere that fits my ideals and lets me keep the fruits of my labors. It will never happen thanks to the Trotskyists in charge the last 100 years.

  17. seif says:

    16 – i haven’t asked all of them yet, give me time. who said we wanted a war in Iraq? who says that religious institutions should be tax exempt? who says that exxon needs tax subsidies? the list goes on and on…it is not a perfect system.

  18. seif says:

    reinvestor101 – time to excommunicate Bobby Jindal:

    Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal on Monday called on Republicans to “stop being the stupid party” and make a concerted effort to reach a broader swath of voters with an inclusive economic message that pre-empts efforts to caricature the GOP as the party of the rich.

    “We’ve got to make sure that we are not the party of big business, big banks, big Wall Street bailouts, big corporate loopholes, big anything,” Jindal told POLITICO in a 45-minute telephone interview. “We cannot be, we must not be, the party that simply protects the rich so they get to keep their toys.”

  19. Brian says:

    Seif, give it up man. You are such a wuss. Where were you in the months leading up to the election? Now that Obama is president you’re back?

    At least people people like Fabmax and Jill and yome had the stones to debate in the time leading up to the election when things were heated. Hell, I think things almost got physical between yome and Ernest at one point.

  20. seif says:

    brian – i took a break for six weeks because it was getting too heated here about politics. mental health break from the board was necessary.

  21. grim says:

    Look, I don’t claim to know a whole lot about Jindal, but from what I can tell, I’d rank him as one of the best among the Repubs.

  22. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Seif sorry I did not want to spend my morning listing all the issues. I thought by saying fedreal government going back to intended roots was enough. Each president and congress since Wilson has chipped away the institutions of the republic with frightening consistency. eisenhower may have been the last decent president the country had. Which is scary as he last governed 52 years ago. the presidents of the 20th century and early 21st have been horrible for the rights and freedoms of the populace. They have had some wins but mostly losses when taking the constitution into consideration.

    For the record I consider FDR one of the worst presidents in American hitory for his expansion of federal powers and if you read the history books he was a world class a$$hole. In some ways feel the same about Teddy, but a least in his case he was a scholar and gentleman. Whose own personal ethos of self reliance did not shine through in his presidency.

  23. seif says:

    21 – i don’t disagree…but with statements like that will the party marginalize him?

  24. Fast Eddie says:

    Very busy at work… it’s turning into a 7 day work week more and more. On another note, I’ve also been very busy this past week filling out applications online. I have applied to numerous assisitance and entitlement programs on the federal, state and local level. Qualify or not, it doesn’t really matter. I figured, f*ck it, this country has become a mindless cesspool so I might as well strip it for whatever I can get. The average entitlement recipient consumes $30,000 per year in handouts so I figure maybe I can get a few peanuts.

    And this thing about states seceding is not such a bad idea. Someone mentioned that there is no fault divorce so why shouldn’t this be the same concept. One side believes in a guilded, communal society and the other believes in ambition and determination. So, why not just go our separate way and let each live in a society that’s acceptable to everyone’s belief.

  25. grim says:

    Friend of mine in TX said that FEMA reimbursed him for his generator a few years back.

  26. Fast Eddie says:

    Amen, I applied to FEMA as well.

  27. seif says:

    Fast Eddie #24 = where is my pony!

    seems a bit hypocritical

  28. Ernest Money says:

    Might as well go for the gubmint cheese. Better gary gets it than some Obamamama.

  29. seif says:

    28 – i agree…he will spend the money saved and help the economy in a small way…but he isn’t different then the people he likes to mock for doing the same thing.

  30. Fast Eddie says:

    seif [27],

    You’re probably right but who cares, it’s all about my family. I could care less now… seriously. I’ll continue to work, invest and use whatever resource I can. It’s like earning side money for doing nothing. If I can get a free pony in any various form, then so be it.

  31. Brian says:

    Did he buy the generator before or after the “disaster” in TX?

    25.grim says:
    November 13, 2012 at 9:29 am
    Friend of mine in TX said that FEMA reimbursed him for his generator a few years back.

  32. Fast Eddie says:

    And just to add, I spoke to a few people and they feel the same way. They’re done. Now, they’re going to circle the wagons, raise the family the best that they can and get whatever they can get to make life easier.

  33. Jill says:

    Grim #10: Ask my cousin Dan about Bobby Jindal; he lives in New Orleans. I never said he was unbiased.

  34. grim says:

    31- after

  35. Ernest Money says:

    Gary, don’t forget the stockpiling munitions and ingots part.

  36. Fast Eddie says:

    Money [35],

    Funny you say that, but I searched for the link for a weapons permit last night. Never had a desire to even shoot a gun but I might as well use all logistics to my advantage.

  37. Anon E. Moose says:

    Seif [27];

    Fast Eddie #24 = where is my pony!

    seems a bit hypocritical

    Thanks for that, Saul Alinsky, Jr. Take my money at gunpoint to pay into the system, then demand that the only way for me to prove my bona fides in opposition is to pass up collecting when the system.

    Give me back the money I paid in, then — maybe — we can talk about foregoing payout. Its ‘maybe’ because just giving me the money back does not make me whole. Taking my money and perverting the market for insurance of these risks denied me the reasonable opportunity to insure against them (without government interference) before the event, or otherwise invest that money to self-insure.

    In short, your cliche-based argument is pathetic. Stuff it.

  38. Painhrtz - 42 says:


    Here have some fun

  39. Sima says:

    I’m disturbed to read how #24 and others are now bragging about gaming the system to get as much as possible for free. How hypocritical.
    Especially after months of angry rants from them (the pro-Romney view) about others being free-loaders, etc.
    This is the same mentality that says it’s OK to hide income in off-shore accounts, not pay fair share in taxes, and definitely not help those truly in need.
    I guess to them volunteers are sukcers. Why do anything for free?

  40. Ernest Money says:

    I just detonated a Castle Bravo on Montklair. This is more fun than fishing with a machine gun!

  41. Ernest Money says:

    sima (39)-

    Banksters and giant corporations are welfare mamas, too. The guys who run ’em just dress better.

    Can’t believe I’m saying this, but see moose’s #37.

    Or, are you saying that the final shred of productive upper middle class should simply allow itself to be taxed into oblivion and have what little wealth they have remaining get redistributed? Should the guy who’s fueling the gravy train step to the back of the recipient line…or not even get in line at all?

  42. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sima [39];

    The looters and moochers ganged up on the producers and won the election. I accept that. Like they say, “Can’t beat ’em…”

  43. Fast Eddie says:


    I’m disturbed to read how #24 and others are now bragging about gaming the system to get as much as possible for free.

    To think those in “need” are not gaming the system is naivete at it’s best. To quote Michael Corleone: “Who’s being naive now, Kay?” After all, I’m just using those resources that are entitled to me.

  44. 30 year realtor says:

    #5 self – If it is priced near reality it sells. Prices are sideways or leaking slowly. Foreclosure inventory will rise as 2013 goes along. I do not see any reason to bet on an appreciating market in our area.

  45. seif says:

    those answers do not address the hypocrisy or lack of self-awareness.

    “the final shred of productive upper middle class should simply allow itself to be taxed into oblivion”

    what makes you think Eddie is in this class? he is constantly screaming for his pony (“I can’t find the house I think I deserve…wah, wah, wah…bah, bah, bah”) while mocking and ridiculing others who he claims are lining up for entitlements. hello kettle, meet eddie.

  46. seif says:

    44 – thanks for the response. so you see this little uptick of late as a blip in a continuing downward trend?

  47. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [39] Pain – That was fun! Back in the early to mid 80’s when I had a secret clearance and worked on defense projects, the whisper was always that Lodi, NJ was ground zero. I placed the “Tsar Bomba” – Largest USSR bomb tested and detonated it in Lodi. Looks about perfect.


    Here have some fun

  48. Fast Eddie says:

    seif [45],

    My portfolio is quite… ahem… comfortable. I’m simply collecting an additional return on investment I didn’t realize existed.

  49. 3B Buying says:

    #30 Fast: How is the house hunt going?

  50. 30 year realtor says:

    #46 – Depends if you are talking about transactions or prices. Transactions trend will continue to improve slowly. Prices will be sideways for a while and also improve very slowly.

  51. 3B Buying says:

    #44 30 Year: I am seeing some closed sales in some of the better BC towns with 2 handles. Grant it, they need work, but still, a big change. I agree prices still appear to be falling, but inventory is limited.

  52. 30 year realtor says:

    3b- Sheriff sales will be increasing substantially as 2013 progresses. That should ease the inventory pressure a bit.

  53. seif says:

    50 – i was referring to price.

  54. Fast Eddie says:

    3b [49],

    Nothing new came on the market in the last 3 weeks. The inventory is barren. Even my agent is saying, can’t find a thing. We’re eager to bid but don’t have anything to bid on. The few that are listed is really, really crappy or obscure or on a main road. I saw them all and continue to scan every day.

  55. Essex says:

    48. ‘Sigh’.

  56. Sima says:

    #41 I’m just a long-term vounteer sukcer who tries to do the “right thing”, even though I see amazing greed around me (companies, banks, and people).

    I’m glad the shrinking middle-class does have some good tax breaks (esp. mortgage deductions) – see the fairly recent Time magazine article by Michael Grunwald –
    One Nation On Welfare. Living Your Life On The Dole.

    Now if you want to bash to bash corporations for how they treat contract workers as disposable kleenex , I’ll support that 200%. It may be legal, but it’s morally wrong.
    By the way, big pharma companies did NOT pay any of their contract workers for the days the companies were shut. Some were shut all week, so that was a huge hit for the contract workers – which means less $ for expenses, etc. Not good for NJ’s economy.

  57. seif says:

    56 – #41 I’m just a long-term voulnteer sucker

    fight the good fight. be the change you want to see in the world…peace, love, dope

  58. yome says:

    The Democrats are ahead of the game .Will the GOP catch up? Jindal and others are starting to sing a different song. The issue is what Party will be able to help them get equal opportunity to sustain self reliant.The tune that GOP is singing only plays well to the small group of well to do and got smaller when high earners starting to lose their jobs.

    “The American population more than tripled during the 20th century—at a growth rate of about 1.3% a year—from about 76 million in 1900 to 281 million in 2000. It reached the 200 million mark in 1967, and the 300 million mark on October 17, 2006.[17][18] Currently, population growth is fastest among minorities as a whole, and according to the Census Bureau’s estimation for 2012, 50.4% of American children under the age of 1 belonged to minority groups.[19]”

    Hispanic and Latino Americans accounted for almost half (1.4 million) of the national population growth of 2.9 million between July 1, 2005, and July 1, 2006.[20] Immigrants and their U.S.-born descendants are expected to provide most of the U.S. population gains in the decades ahead.[21]’

  59. joyce says:


    Two questions:
    “I’m glad the shrinking middle-class does have some good tax breaks (esp. mortgage deductions)” Was this statement in jest? Doesn’t this loophope for a middle class homeowner prevent one from paying their fair share?

    “which means less $ for expenses, etc. Not good for NJ’s economy.” Why do people continue to believe that simply spending money is the end all be all of an economy? The factoid that our ‘economy is 70% consumer driven’ is not a positive. It is a huge detriment to the health of our economy and by extension our society. The statement is saying that we are not paying for our imports with exports; we are importing more and more foreign goods by running up the debt (cause we do not produce enough to balance; the trade imbalance is becoming (already has) structural… all very bad things.

  60. seif says:

    Red states suck us all dry for food stamps and other handouts….now we can add Fast Eddie to the list.

    “The numbers, for decades now, have been quite clear: With some exceptions, what we regard as red states are sent a whole lot more of your hard-earned tax dollars than the traditional blue states. In effect, supposedly indolent, “tax and spend” liberals actually subsidize the individualistic, pure, and hard-working lifestyle of our conservative countrymen.”

  61. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Expat Money I nuked LA, San Fran, and Montclair with the Tsar bomba. funny how we all went with the largest bombs in each arsenal. Only way to be sure

  62. 3B Buying says:

    #54 Fast: Same here, saw one missed it, would have paid close to ask price.Mulling whether to bid on another one, but, we are just not sure if we really want it.

  63. joyce says:



    So, is that the equivalent of a ‘sucker-volunteer’ who advocates against what in their best interests?

  64. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    that would be me

  65. Sima says:

    I agree with #60.

    #63 By the way, being a volunteer is not against my best interests, other than I am not being paid for my time. (which, of course, so many view as being a sucker)
    Much volunteer work benefits society as a whole. For example, environmentalists have championed for clean air and water for decades, which has resulted in the Clean Water Act and other environmental laws, and which has resulted in cleaner water and air for everyone. Anyone remember years ago when rivers caught fire?

  66. Sima says:

    #64 I’m an excellent gardener.
    Think of the growth field of medical weed! How to get rich from the comfort of your home!

  67. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [60];

    Red states suck us all dry for food stamps and other handouts….now we can add Fast Eddie to the list.

    The red state of NJ? Moron.

    If its such a bad deal for the blues states, why do they keep voting for more of the same? Could it be because of all the blue state public union jobs that don’t show up as ‘handouts’ in anyone’s statistics? When I worked for the Fed Govt I knew many an individual should have been relegated to minimum wage jobs based on their demonstrated productivity. None of them had any fear of being fired from their government job for life. No one counts that spending as ‘welfare’, but it sure shows up as government spending, which in turn shows up in some combination of both my tax bill the the government debt my kids are going to be asked to pay.

  68. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    hmmm…just realized that Anus E. Moose is a reinvestor101 -type parody. took me a while to catch on.

  69. Punch My Ticket says:

    Much volunteer work benefits society as a whole. For example, environmentalists have championed blah blah

    Ah, yes, the sainted environmentalists, all of whom toil for no remuneration.

    Pull the other leg.

  70. Brian says:


    (I already applied but the odds appear to be against me. I purchased just before the storm hit. Maybe having an infant counts as a medical condition? They need heat no?)

    Reimbursement for generator purchased post-disaster
    Published 06/24/2009 09:02 AM | Updated 01/03/2012 05:58 PM
    Will FEMA reimburse me for the generator I purchased after the disaster?
    In order to be considered for reimbursement for a generator purchased after a federally declared disaster, there must be an existing medical condition which requires you to have medical equipment/appliance for medical purposes.

    In addition to the eligibility requirements for the Individuals and Households program, the following criteria will apply to generators:

    •Generator is purchased or rented to power a medically-required appliance or piece of equipment
    •Generator is purchased or rented on or after the Governor’s Declaration of a State of Emergency up to the end of the incident period or the date power is restored to the applicant’s home, whichever occurs first
    Applicants will need to send FEMA:

    •A copy of the proof-of-purchase or rental receipts for the generator
    •Proof that the appliance or equipment is required for medical purposes (e.g. letter from physician on letterhead that the applicant/occupant has a medical need for the appliance or equipment).
    You may fax your documents to 1-800-827-8112 or physically mail correspondence to:

    FEMA – Individuals & Households Program
    National Processing Service Center
    P.O. Box 10055
    Hyattsville, MD 20782-8055

  71. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [70] brian,

    Hello! I think I have to call my BIL and get a note about that pre-existing condition that will require power. Maybe my allergies; need to keep those HEPA filters and A/C running.

    If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.

  72. Brian says:

    This is interesting. I noticed the briggs and stratton storm responder is a 5500 watt (5.5kw) generator. Home Depot was shipping them in like crazy before and after the storm.

    I found this quote in the generator reimbursement guidelines in the FEMA library online:

    “If the preceding criteria are verified, the cost of the generator will be reimbursed up to the prevailing retail or rental rate, identified by FEMA, for a 5.5 kw‐sized generator.”

    Now I think I understand why many of the generators I’ve looked at are 5500 watts (5.5 kw).

  73. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [39] sima,

    It’s because we lost. And remember, taxation for these bennies is a forced exaction; I have no choice about paying for them. And if I am going to be paying for them anyway, that means I am a participant (even if I never wanted to be one). So, it is only natural to seek to use them if we qualify. Is it my fault that the bar is so low?

  74. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Why do I get the impression that this guy’s name will be on the quarterly publication of expatriates before 2014 is out?

  75. Libtard at home says:


    Did you support the federal help offered to homeowners who couldn’t afford to pay their underwater mortgages? Did you support the bailouts of the banks who knowingly made loans to those who should have never qualified? You are stirring the pot, while the rest of the kitchen is burning.

  76. Libtard at home says:

    Smack in the middle of the produce department in Shoprite in Bloomfield is a skid of generators. They are 3500 watts and they are selling them for $250. Suckers.

  77. nwnj says:

    I’ve always considerede the federal-spending-by-state study that left wingers love to parrot a contrived POS. MD and VA don’t make the top 10 list of net takers. That doesn’t pass the smell test.

    I need to know more about the study methodology before I grant that study any validity.

    I suspect that if the feds hire 1000 FEMA blue shirts in your state at 80k a piece, and they each pay 20k in income tax, that’s actually considered a net contribution of 20,000,000 to the fed coffers.

  78. Brian says:

    “D. The Recovery Director may waive one or more eligibility criteria during extraordinary circumstances (e.g., sustained power outage during a period of sub‐freezing temperatures), when determined to be in the public interest.”

    Did it go below 32 degrees? I can’t remember…..

  79. Libtard at home says:

    FEMA is not easy money unless there’s flooding, especially in a non-flood zone. They are primarily supplemental if you have homeowners insurance. Trust me, I tried.

    I used to live (rented a room shortly after college) in the flood zone along the Passaic in Lincoln Park. During the Irene Floods last year, my friends called me and asked if I wanted new furniture. They told me to drag anything I wanted replaced in my home, down to their house which was in 8 feet of water on the main floor. Of course, we didn’t do it. But lots of people I know did. But keep attacking Gary. He’s the bad one here.

  80. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    when the facts don’t fit your narrative…just disregard them or make up your own

    nwnj says:
    November 13, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    I’ve always considerede the federal-spending-by-state study that left wingers love to parrot a contrived POS.

  81. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    79 – But keep attacking Gary. He’s the bad one here.

    he isn’t necessarily “bad.” he is a hypocrite. he is definitely not part of the solution and now he is a part of the problem. have the ballz to call him out on it. he’s showing his true colors…you defending it is just as suspect. why didn’t you do it when your friends gave you the opportunity?

  82. xolepa says:

    Someone here mentioned earlier how the Red states suck the resources from the liberal leaning states. Can those same people do a drill down and answer the question that is more relevant to us: Which counties in NJ provide more of their fair share to those that take more than their fair share? Answer me what services are provided to me in Hunterdon that you can’t get in Newark, Paterson, West New York, etc?

    Secondly, it’s the fault of the voters themselves in the Blue leaning states for letting their politicians get bamboozled by those from red states. Honestly, what has Lautenberg, Menendes, Toricelli and even Bill Bradley done for New Jersey? The voters in this state deserve it. These same voters take that the attitude that liberal state residents are more educated, tolerant, blah, blah. In reality, we are the dumb suckers.

  83. yome says:

    There will always be somebody that will abuse the system,that will spoil it for the ones that needs help. I hope they get caught and prosecuted.

  84. Anon E. Moose says:

    Dope [68];

    Thanks for saving me the trouble of bastardizing your name in return.

    took me a while to catch on.

    What’s for acknowledging your handicap. Patient as I am, unfortunately I can’t afford to wait until you catch up the rest of the way.

  85. Anon E. Moose says:

    Dope [81];

    he isn’t necessarily “bad.” he is a hypocrite.

    Keep ignoring the part about having paid into the system at the point of a gun. To leftists, the world always began yesterday.

  86. relo says:

    7: Brian,

    It is an ill wind that blows nobody any good.

  87. Fast Eddie says:

    Peace, Love, Dope [81],

    Call me whatever you want, it’s about me and my family. I continue to pay into the entitlements so now I’m going to use them in any manner possible. It took me a few days after the election before the 1000 watt light bulb went off in my head but boy, did it ever. I can still draw a nice salary and supplement it without getting a 2nd job. If I’m a hypocrite, consider me guilty. And by the way, a lot of people who eagerly voted for Romney apparently had the light bulb go off in their head as well.

  88. 3B Buying says:

    #87 FasT: I must have missed something. What are you applying for, and cna I get some too?

  89. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Moose while I often like to chide you this is the most prescient statement most leftists seem to ignore.

    Keep ignoring the part about having paid into the system at the point of a gun.

    this is why i think the 16th amendment is the most evil as it legalized theft by force upon the public. Would love for leftists to stop paying for something they deem unjust and see how quickly the government extracts their pound of flesh by force.

    Sure as the sun will rise the leftists will howl about what’s fair. All actions of the state are just until said force is brought to bear upon them.

  90. Libtard at home says:

    Peace, love, dope. I didn’t dump my couches because quite frankly, I didn’t need new ones and seemed like quite the hassle. If I lived closer, perhaps I would have. How is Moody’s and Standard & Poors doing? Do we all still trust their ratings still? Moral hazard is a bitch. If the government does it, better damn well believe I will too. Sorry if you don’t respect my position, but I think yours is stupid and dangerous. Keep allowing the government to take advantage of you and eventually you will see the unfairness of the structure. Meanwhile, Corzine walks free.

  91. Brian says:

    huh? Is that your way of accusing me of breaking wind?

    86.relo says:
    November 13, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    7: Brian,

    It is an ill wind that blows nobody any good.

  92. Fast Eddie says:


    I’ve been applying for every government entitlement I could find on the federal, state and local level. I figured if I’m paying into it, why not use it. The country voted for a daddy government so who am I to fight it? Like it was said earlier, if you can’t beat em…

  93. 3B Buying says:

    #92 Fast: Seriously, what kind of entitlements? Are they giving free money away? I will have to check myself. I want some too!

  94. xolepa says:

    As a resident in a strongly red leaning county, I will confess to the fact that government largess works both ways. My brother became rich starting and running a company that specialized in transferring state monies to ‘hiring companies’ willing to relocate their businesses to those respected states. His company knew the ins and outs of all state regulations. The states gave money to those businesses who in turn gave him a cut of the pie. I personally receive Section 8/Social Services income from the state/fed for a rental property (or two). How did Ross Perot make his billions?
    (disclaimer – I am not Ross Perot)

    These monies are paid for by the taxpayers, and Jerseyans pay more than their fair share. What was it last? 69 cents on the federal dollar they receive back. That’s the fault of our congressman and senators. And the voters who keep reelecting them.

  95. Libtard at home says:

    Unlike Gary, I started going for mine in 2009. It’s not partisan Seif so don’t worry about it. Both parties suck, you just don’t yet realize this. But don’t worry. In 2030, you can join me in Costa Rica or Belize (or whatever other Cental American country will have me) where everyone who wants to get a head has to work for it.

  96. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    There’s nothing better than getting mailbox money; the kind that just keeps coming to your mailbox without you having to work for any of it.

  97. Happy Renter says:

    Big Brother doesn’t want you thinking for yourself or taking any initiative.

    “Generator is purchased or rented on or after the Governor’s Declaration of a State of Emergency up to the end of the incident period or the date power is restored to the applicant’s home, whichever occurs first”

    If you took it upon yourself to prepare and bought a generator before the disaster happened — no soup for you!

    If you stuck it out through the blackout, examined what you could do to prepare yourself for a future disaster, and bought a generator to be prepared for next time — no soup for you!

    If you did nothing to prepare for the storm, then ran around like a chicken with its head cut-off and overpaid for a generator while the lights were still out — Big Nanny Government is willing and eager to give you a FEMA check (and probably a Bomma-phone).

    It only gets better if you sell your FEMA-paid generator on Craigslist next year after you get tired of it taking up space in your garage; then you can buy another one during the next “disaster” and get your next infusion of FEMA money.

    You can’t make this stuff up.

  98. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    I loves me some mailbox money.

  99. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    I dare you to watch this, you won’t get the tune out of your head for days.

  100. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Is it that damn taylor swift girl? her music is annoyingly catchy.

  101. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [101] libtard,

    I love how snopes parsed the issue to be able to give a false to a conservative talking point. If the words “among others” were added to the end, it would have to be true. Snopes simply noted that the intended recipients were not just welfare recipients therefore the Venn diagram of claims is not completely congruent, thus the claim is false.

    What they also don’t address here (though in some places they would be thorough) is why the program was created. If there is a reason other than getting cellphone service to low income americans, including welfare recipients, then I am keen to hear it. But that doesn’t help the narrative so the extra step doesn’t get taken this time.

  102. Brian says:

    97 –
    I damn near bought it on that preceding Wednesday. I couldn’t convince my wife that the power was going to go out for days and we would need one. Finally waited online at 4:30AM Friday October, 26th at Home Depot. Procrastination may have paid off again. Incident period begins:

    New Jersey Hurricane Sandy (EM-3354)
    ..Incident period: Friday, October 26, 2012
    Emergency Declaration declared on October 28, 2012
    The following counties under PA-B are limited to direct federal assistance: Atlantic County, Bergen County, Burlington County, Camden County, Cape May County, Cumberland County, Essex County, Gloucester County, Hudson County, Hunterdon County, Mercer County, Middlesex County, Monmouth County, Morris County, Ocean County, Passaic County, Salem County, Somerset County, Sussex County, Union County and Warren County.

  103. AFE says:

    Naive Question here re FEMA assistance

    Thought reimbursed only if generator bought to plug in life saving medical equipment…
    Realize this is a fact for most Americans and their fridges ;) But anyone know how they check medical equipment requirement….

  104. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Ariz. woman runs over husband for not voting

    Police say a woman who was upset over the outcome of the presidential election ran over her husband because he didn’t participate in his civic duty.

    Holly Solomon, 28, chased her 36-year-old husband Daniel Solomon with the family Jeep SUV on Saturday night over a political argument stemming from the fact he didn’t vote, CBS station KPHO in Phoenix, Ariz. reported. She pinned him between the underside of the SUV and the curb when he tried to run for help.;mostShared

  105. pete says:

    The false claim is that the obama administration created the program. So even if you added “among others” it is still falsae.

  106. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Woman hoards 30 Obama Phones

  107. Ernest Money says:

    That lady in AZ who ran over her hubby is one scary looking byatch.

  108. freedy says:

    Oops: Denver News Station Airs Photoshopped Paula Broadwell Book Title — ‘All Up In My Snatch’

    This is what it’s come to .

    Call in Homeland Security. Hello, Janet get on this

  109. Brian says:

    The Lifeline program was created in 1984. It was expanded in 2008 to include cell phones.

    106.pete says:
    November 13, 2012 at 2:35 pm
    The false claim is that the obama administration created the program. So even if you added “among others” it is still falsae.

  110. Brian says:

    I wonder who signed the changes into law?

  111. Happy Renter says:

    “It was expanded in 2008 to include cell phones.”

    Funny how “expand” is the only thing those government programs seem to do well.

  112. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    freedy with the title of the book I’m surprised it took a news agency that long to “accidently” post a photoshopped picture.

    I’m sure it wasn’t a mistake that it was snuck in, just got past the copy editors before going ont he air.

    hope the kid got a good laugh cause he is probably on the unemployment line this morning.

  113. pete says:


    Its not a change signed in to law. The fcc expanded the program to authorize cell phones. This happned during the bush administration. Obama was not president is 2008.

  114. Fast Eddie says:

    Case in point: We have a friend who is a single mom. She had her daughter at 18 years old. When her daughter was school age, she worked full time during the day and went to college at night. She did not ask for a single dime nor took out any loans. This girl lived in a sh1t two room basement apartment for years and cut her path by herself. The day after the election, she went on a twitter/facebook rant of epic proportion. After a day or two of sheer anger, she said, “I’m done.” It needed no explanation. As a single mom, she’ll get a nice slice of cheese and rightfully so. She achieved it on her own but was livid that people apparently voted the way they did. Count her as one of many that have simply given up or perhaps, saw the light.

  115. Brian says:

    115 –

    Bush = Damn stinking Liberal RINO commie!

  116. joyce says:


    Fast Eddie,

    Why did it take until 11/6/2012 for “the light bulb to come on” for you, her, and (according to you/facebook) large swathes of other people?

  117. Essex says:

    Eddie reminds me of Paul Ryan. Condemns the handouts which reaching underneath the table for whatever he can grab.

  118. Brian says:

    “The president has no direct impact on the program, and one could hardly call these devices “Obama Phones,” as the e-mail author does. This specific program, SafeLink, started under President George Bush, with grants from an independent company created under President Bill Clinton, which was a legacy of an act passed under President Franklin Roosevelt, which was influenced by an agreement reached between telecommunications companies and the administration of President Woodrow Wilson.”

  119. Fast Eddie says:

    joyce [118],

    I saw my father work two jobs for 40 years and never complain once. In fact, I can’t remember him ever taking a day off, sick or otherwise. This, from a guy who grew up like in the movie, Cinderella Man. I just always thought that that’s the only way to make it. Whatever. That was then, this is now. So, if it’s there for the taking, then take it. No more hero sh1t.

  120. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    He gave us a phone, he gonna do more.

  121. Brian says:

    Keep Obama in president you know?

  122. joyce says:

    Similar to 3B’s question, what programs can Gary seriously qualify for?
    For someone with a comfortable portfolio, I doubt any programs will be available to him.

  123. joyce says:

    That didn’t quite answer my question.

  124. Anon E. Moose says:

    Essex [119];

    Condemns the handouts which reaching underneath the table for whatever he can grab.

    Another leftist lacking 5th grade reading comprehension skills self-identifies.

  125. All Hype - Mr. Oil, Mr. Gas, Mr. Coal says:

    Eddie (121):

    The days of asking for gubbmint help being a shameful embarrassment are long gone. Now it’s the thing to do. Why have pride in hard work and a sense of accomplishment? Those things are dead like the dinosaurs.

    I for one totally agree with you that you are entitled to get all the gubbmint cheeze you can get. Bama’ gonna pay for it!

  126. Fast Eddie says:

    joyce [125],

    I don’t have an answer for why the bulb came on, it just did.

  127. joyce says:



    I hate to agree with Moose, but Paul Ryan after college was a congressional staffer and speach writer (briefly worked for a family member’s company) and then because a representative.
    If your income comes from tax revenue, just because you remit a tiny portion back to the government does not mean you pay taxes.
    Ryan is a leech-fcuk of the highest order. He paid nothing so he deserves nothing. (this is assuming any of these programs should exist in the first place)

  128. Libtard at home says:

    The issue to me is not that you get a phone if you’re poor. Nor do I see it as a partisan issue as the Repubs could get smart and start catering to the so-called lower classes. The issue to me is that the government can’t ever administer a successful social program based on need. I’m sure if you dig deep enough, you will find that Reagan started the program as a thank you to the phone lobby or to a big donor who had his back in 1980. This is what needs to be fought. Not that that Clinton threw a gift to his constituents to maintain his base. I’m sure a cell phone in every poor person’s stocking is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 3% cut to the top tax bracket (another gift to the other base). Rah, rah shishboom BAA!

  129. zieba says:

    Gary baby, you’re up!!

    The crowd will not be appeased unless an answer is given.

    The single mother can ditch her dead end job, go under-counter and full-tilt welfare/medical. If she can hitch a disability of any sorts to that, she’s golden.

    WTF are you going to other than haggle over the date stamp on your generator receipt?

  130. Libtard at home says:

    A day doesn’t pass that I don’t calculate how much more wealthy I would be I worked a job off the books. Which party can I thank for that?

  131. 3B Buying says:

    #124 joyce: My point exactly.

  132. Libtard at home says:

    The modern key to wealth is to hide your income.

  133. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    I said this about Ryan back in August:

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    August 11, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Romney chooses Paul Ryan for VP, huh? Ryan talks a good game but I was personally disturbed when he disclosed his Stock holdings:

    Notable holdings:
    Bank of New York
    JP Morgan Chase
    Bank of America
    Berkshire Hathaway
    Philip Morris
    Goldman Sachs

  134. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    John Chambers of Cisco won’t get a WH invite anytime soon. He was on CNBC, slamming our tax structure and laying out plans to invest abroad. Extolled the canadians and how easy they were making it to expand in Canada. Pretty much wrote off any plans to invest/hire here.

  135. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [135] expat

    What were the Unnotable holdings? And why were the holding notable?

  136. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    and the assets you buy with that hidden income. Don’t buy all your PM in one place.

    The modern key to wealth is to hide your income.

  137. joyce says:


    Come on, Libtard

    The modern key to wealth is to have it directed to you from others via the government. And no I’m not talking cellphones and food stamps, but the Federal Reserve System, Military Industrial Complex, Medical/Pharma, etc etc. There revenues would crater and/or be non-existent without the govt.

  138. joyce says:

    There = Their

  139. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    I would hope that notable = biggest, but who knows? The choice of the word “notable” might leave the cynical thinking they cherry-picked the specific holdings for effect (which is the opposite of journalism). I would have liked to see $ figures.

    [135] expat

    What were the Unnotable holdings? And why were the holding notable?

  140. Essex says:

    Ah it’s good to incite sonetimes.

  141. Ragnar says:

    Reaching under the table for whatever he can grab? That sounds like the perfect topic for a JJ story.

  142. Statler Waldorf says:

    The red states keep this nation safe. “New Jersey comes in 50th of the 50 states; just 1 percent of current residents have served in the military since Vietnam.”

    In 1969, the 10 states with the highest percentage of veterans were, in order: Wyoming, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, California, Oregon, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Ohio, Connecticut and Illinois.

    In 2007, the 10 states with the highest percentage of post-Vietnam-era veterans were, in order: Alaska, Virginia, Hawaii, Washington, Wyoming, Maine, South Carolina, Montana, Maryland and Georgia.

    Over the past four decades, which states have disappeared from the top 10? California, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois, all big blue states that have voted Democratic in the past five presidential elections. These states and another blue state, New York, which ranked 12th in 1969, are among the 10 states with the lowest number of post-Vietnam vets per capita. New Jersey comes in 50th of the 50 states; just 1 percent of current residents have served in the military since Vietnam.

    This is not simply an issue of people retiring to warm states such as Florida, Georgia and Texas. A 2005 Heritage Foundation analysis of Defense Department and census data on enlistments found that Montana, Alaska, Florida, Wyoming, Maine and Texas send the most young people per capita to the military. The states with the lowest contribution rates? Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey and New York.

  143. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    The Nikke 225 is 13% lower than it was…in January 1984. Wow.

  144. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Staler what do those states have in common?

    High population

    How did the military get a majority of their recruits in 1969?

    That article is bunk

  145. Painhrtz - 42 says:

    Also take into consideration economic and education levels of of those high population states plus lack of gods guns and country. You get your answer.

  146. HouseWhineWine says:

    Please, spare me. Very few people refuse government “handouts” and entitlements.
    I doubt that it’s just one political parties’ members accepting extended unemployment benefits, social security and disability, and I will even throw Medicare in with that. I know folks on both sides who you could say have milked the system. If it makes you feel better about yourself at least give some of that money back..give some dollars to your food bank,

  147. Libtard at home says:


    Thanks for the correction. I guess I slipped into my old mold there for a minute.

  148. Libtard at home says:

    It’s horrible that I try to get some FEMA money to pay for a tree that my insurance company won’t pay to remove, yet ever small business owner that I know has their spouse on the payroll even though they don’t work there.

  149. Statler Waldorf says:

    It’s news to me that New York has a low population with 20 million residents.

    The difference is culture/mindset, not population.

    When you go into the nicest homes in Texas, for example, you see a great many high school graduates are heading off to the Air Force, etc. These are well educated, upper income households.

    The mindset of a Northeasterner is that people in the military are ‘losers with limited options’ but down South, it’s viewed as an honor to serve your country.

    This has been my continued observation, and the data suggest my observations are not simply anecdotal.

  150. McDullard says:

    Statler… Do you think there is a clear cut northern vs southerner breakdown on how the military is viewed? You remind me of a post I saw where an Indian person was mocking how racist the southerners were (based on a facebook post on Obama). Not even going into how racist Indians can be, it was amusing to see this person drinking some “blue koolaid”. I am sure this person believed that only “bad businessmen” pay less taxes (vs Saint Kerry and his luxurious yachts).

  151. Essex says:

    143. That’s what I was going for!

  152. Ernest Money says:

    stu (150)-

    When I was a small business owner, I never put my spouse on the payroll.

    I am also an idiot.

  153. Ernest Money says:

    Different game now. There are no rules.

  154. Ernest Money says:

    waldorf (151)-

    If you choose to work for the perpetual war industry, you are a fool, no matter your intellectual or financial station in life.

  155. Ernest Money says:

    If you sign up to march toward the front line and be shot forthwith, someone in charge will be willing to accommodate your desire.

  156. chicagofinance says:

    The modern key to wealth is to be grossly overpaid, but competent enough not to lose your gig……I can’t stand the handouts (e.g., Obamaphone), but it is more outrage that envy. As much as we can complain about various entitlements, up to and including 99 weeks of unemployment insurance et al……it still sucks to be in that position. What is unacceptable is fraud, and I guess Libtard’s point is bureaucratic incompetence is virtually guaranteed in federal government programs…..

    Libtard at home says:
    November 13, 2012 at 4:17 pm
    The modern key to wealth is to hide your income.

  157. Libtard at home says:

    Chi…exactly! I don’t have an issue with most social programs. I do have an issue with how most are run, or whether they even provide any benefit more than what would happen if people paid less taxes and had the discretionary dollars to pay for the services themselves.

  158. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [154] clot,

    Yep, that was a no brainer you ignored. Gets you higher brackets. One negative is higher SECA payments overall if you earn over the cutoff, but usually deferral will.eliminate that. I put my 9YO on my payroll. Ten bucks a week to empty the trash and recycling cans. Gets it from my bracket into hers (zero at that level) and since she has earned income, I use it to fund her Roth.

  159. caljn says:

    Has Eddie specified what gov’t cheez he was applying for?

    I didn’t think so.

  160. Essex says:

    Did someone say Government Cheese?

  161. Fabius Maximus says:

    This guy is having a great day. Gets grilled by the UK parliment and the French slap Amazon with a $250Million tax fine. This one is going to run and run.

  162. Fabius Maximus says:

    #7 Chi (previous thread)

    I expect nothing less from you as your arguements cant stand up on their own merits.

  163. Fabius Maximus says:

    #98 Moose (previous thread)
    “You don’t need them or the refineries, right?”
    How many refineries does the state of Texas own? So when Exxon et al have to make a call between the Republic of Texas and the USG. How is that going to go. We have hit the point were we are refining more product than we need. So there is excess capacity. We have built I refinery in the last 20 years. So yes let them secede. With the changing energy field (Yes Chi Fracking has an impact). New more efficient refineries can be built.
    If Texas secedes, the Oil companies will turn it into Nigeria within a decade.

    HOME PHONE:214-1-7742865
    I am a member of the Government of Texas Contract Award and Monitoring Committee in the Texas National Petroleum Corporation (TNPC).
    Sometime ago, a contract was awarded to a foreign firm in NNPC by my committee. This contract was over invoiced to the tune of US$21.5M.This was done deliberately. The over-invoicing was a deal by my committee to benefit from the project. We now desire to transfer this money which is in a Suspense Account with TNPC in any Overseas Account which we expect you to provide for us.
    For providing the account where we shall remit the money, you will be entitled to 30% of the money, 70% will be for me and my partners.
    I would require the following: 1) Bankers Name and Address (2) Telephone and Fax Number of Bankers 3) Sort/ABA/Routing Number of Bankers 4) Account Number 5) Name of Beneficiary/Company Name /Address. 6) Telephone and Fax No. of Beneficiary
    The above information would be used to make formal applications as a matter of procedure for the release of the money and onward transfer to your account.It does not matter whether or not your company does contract projects of this nature described here, the assumption is that your company won the major contract and subcontracted it out to other companies. More often than not, big trading companies or firms of unrelated fields win major contracts and subcontract to more specialized firms for execution of such contracts. We have strong and reliable connections and contacts at the Apex Bank and Federal Ministry of Finance and we have no doubt that all this money will be released and transferred if we get the necessary foreign partner to assist us in this deal. Therefore, when the business is successfully concluded we shall through our same connections withdraw all documents used from all the concerned Government Ministries for 100% security. We are civil servants and we will not want to miss this opportunity.
    Please contact me immediately through my above e-mail address or Tel/Fax number 214-90-401593, whether or not you are interested in this deal. If you are not, it will enable me scout for another foreign partner to carry out this deal. But where you are interested, send the required documents aforementioned herein without delay, as time is of the essence in this business.
    I wait in anticipation of your fullest co-operation.
    Yours faithfully, DR.SHERIFF LAWAL.

  164. Fast Eddie says:


    Go to

    I answered a comprehensive questionnaire

  165. Fast Eddie says:


    I answered a comprehensive questionnaire with complete and utter honesty and I’m currently eligible to apply to 67 programs. I applied to about 12 of them in the last few days.

  166. Fabius Maximus says:

    Here is where I stand on all this FEMA talk. Yes there will be people that scam, and claim for things they don’t need, but that does not take away from the real need of the program. Will there be millionaires on food stamps, yes, but it does not remove the need for the food stamp program. I don’t want bigger or smaller government; I want a more efficient government.
    Here’s what really floors me. Why do people put their professional lives on the line for a few bucks. From the gas station or hotels that price gouge, to this classic.
    “Hello! I think I have to call my BIL and get a note about that pre-existing condition that will require power. Maybe my allergies; need to keep those HEPA filters and A/C running.”
    Risking a trip to the big house and disbarment for a $500 generator. Who does that?

  167. Fabius Maximus says:

    “I put my 9YO on my payroll. Ten bucks a week to empty the trash and recycling cans. Gets it from my bracket into hers (zero at that level) and since she has earned income, I use it to fund her Roth.”

    Advice to the board.
    As I have pointed out in the past there is a big problem with this. There are few rules that govern the tax treatment of hiring family members. The first is that the salary paid must be in line with the market. You have to pay the family member that same as you would pay a regular employee for the same job.
    The second and were Eddie Ray falls down is that the job must be necessary for the business. Is there a reasonable expectation that if you did not hire your family member for the role, you would hire someone else in their place to do the same task? If your trash cans don’t get emptied, will your business be shut down? If you have your kid working in the family mini mart, paying them to take out the trash, that is not a problem as removing the trash a necessary part of the business. Now Clot can claim his wife as a office manager as that would be a reasonable expectation that his business would require the role.
    Also can the kid be expected to perform the task. You can pay your 14Yo kid to collate receipts as they have the skillset for the job, but it’s a long stretch to say your 9YO has the skills for the job. If you are paying your kid to keep the office straight for clients, can they be expected to keep the toilet clean for the clients as well?

    As always I would recommend, you consult an expert in this area, but sometimes it’s hard to find one.

  168. McDullard says:

    Fab… Paying the kids is more useful to inculcate some financial responsibility, and make a habit of savings — beyond the IRA limit, it gets pooled with regular household income, anyway. For a business owner, it doesn’t make sense to put an adult family member on payroll (a 13% payroll tax!) instead of just getting that money as profit (no payroll tax). Kids under 18 don’t pay those taxes… Consulting a good CPAs is the best option.

  169. Comrade Nom Deplume says:


    Call a cop.

  170. Mikewaited says:

    seif 8 Mike – whose truth? you think the republicans lost because they were more concerned with “truth?”
    “Your party is really mean, mocking and demonizing everyone who does not follow you into the pits of hell. You constantly imply – as Mitt Romney did in his “47% speech” – that anybody who disagrees with you does so not by logic or moral conviction, but because they are shiftless, lazy parasites who want “free stuff” from “traditional Americans.” Wow, you guys managed to follow up a stunning electoral defeat with insulting the very people you wish to attract for a majority in the political system! Brilliant! You are losing elections because being angry and defensive and just-plain-mean is more important than being smart and winning elections – and thus you deserve everything happening to you.”

    Yes! being smart and winning elections that is truth?
    “Truth” it is there truth and they ran on it and lost. So you propose they say whatever gets the masses behind them regardless of what they believe. OK I guess that is truth to you, I know it is to the party that won that is how they did it. FYI I voted for neither.
    PS Just for the record maybe you where on a break but we went over that
    “47%” statement here ad nauseam, bottom line he said that 47% ain’t ever voting for me and he was right, just said the truth.

  171. joyce says:


    What Fabius of course fails to mention, being so much more wise and noble, is that for every program that may MAY be nice and helpful… there are 66 other programs that exist for no purpose (no legitimate purpose). [I just went with gary’s number 67]

    Again, this does concede the point (that I’m not willing to) that it’s ever OK to steal from someone and give it someone else.

    “I have never understood why it is greed to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money.” – Thomas Sowell (quote may be misattributed)

  172. Fabius Maximus says:

    #170 McD
    The issue is not the benefit of instilling financial responsibility in your kids. It is the legality of the tax structure that surrounds the employment.

  173. Fabius Maximus says:

    #172 Eddie Ray

    In the words of Principal Skinner. Prove me wrong!

  174. Fabius Maximus says:

    #174 Joyce

    Ok, you want a straight up/down vote?

    Lets start with this list, feel free to add.

    529 or Coverdell
    Home Mortgage Interest Deduction
    Hope or Lifetime Learning Tax Credit
    Student Loans
    Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit
    Earned Income Tax Credit
    Social Security–Retirement & Survivors
    Pell Grants
    Unemployment Insurance
    Veterans Benefits
    G.I. Bill
    Head Start
    Social Security Disability
    SSI–Supplemental Security Income
    Welfare/Public Assistance
    Government Subsidized Housing
    Food Stamps

  175. joyce says:

    How would life function without those?

    what is seen and what is not seen

  176. joyce says:

    Let me know tomorrow…

  177. Fabius Maximus says:

    #174 Joyce

    I think I am still, the only person on this board 6 years later that has called for the full repeal of the Bush tax cuts and I have openly stated that they should not have been made in the first place.
    I was talking to a guy last night that was saying that “How could O expect him to vote for him when he is taking $10K out of my pocket with his policies” I asked if he was complaining when Bush passed the cuts, with the defecit levels at that point. Will he happily take a neutral tax increase now for a guarantee that he will pay back the offset from the benefit he has had from the tax code since 2001, to ballance the 3.8T they cost?

  178. Fabius Maximus says:

    #178 joyce

    Talk to the the probabale 90% US population that that list impacts.

    Step up and pick you platform.

  179. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [176] fabius,

    I don’t have the burden of proof or persuasion. If you are accusing me, you have it.

    Now, anticipating your comeback, I know you’re wrong on the law and analysis. I don’t feel compelled to waste my time probing something to you that you won’t accept anyway. Bring a complaint before an appropriate forum and then I’ll respond.

    Or, if you are willing to write some apps for me, I’m happy to write the legal memo for you.

  180. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [180] fabius

    It may shock you to learn that I agree with you on that one point, except with respect to dividends.

  181. McDullard says:

    Nom/Fab, I wonder what the rate of support would be for letting all of W’s tax cuts expire (including the taxes on dividends). While it is difficult to argue that tax cuts will do good if they are given for people earning up to 250k, while taxing those making above 250k is a cure for the country. On the other hand, a simple bill titled “Undo W” may be great starter — I think an overwhelming majority of Americans agree that W’s policies were bad.

  182. Ernest Money says:

    gluteus (181)-

    That’s an easy one. Get rid of all that handout crap and shut down the federal gubmint.

    We are headed there anyway, probably through civil war or coup.

  183. Ernest Money says:

    Of course, Fab prolly thinks we should jack capital gains taxes (an illegal double taxation, and the biggest destroyer of wealth ever created) to the sky.

  184. Ernest Money says:

    Favorable tax treatment of dividends and carried interest will never pass. Those are the mechanisms that keep the 1% fat and happy.

    Buffett screams for a millionaire tax while remaining strangely silent on this point. Wonder why?

  185. Ernest Money says:

    In 186, I meant, “will never pass away”…

  186. If you are like a lot of people you can simply overlook this. The real truth comes with being honest with yourself and your goals. Generally this will lead to a mistaken and unproductive life.

  187. Wow that was strange. I just wrote an very long comment but after I clicked submit my comment didn’t show up. Grrrr… well I’m not writing all that over again. Anyways, just wanted to say excellent blog!

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