Battle lines are drawn

From the Star Ledger:

Jersey Shore revolution begins, as FEMA releases new flood maps

A revolution is likely coming to the New Jersey Shore, and the federal government just fired the first shot.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency released advisory flood maps yesterday, which they hope will serve as a guideline for how nearly 200 communities should rebuild stronger after Hurricane Sandy’s devastation. The maps (see below) are the first change to New Jersey’s federal flood maps in more than two decades, and show a coastline far more vulnerable to flooding than previously thought — as Sandy proved in the worst way.

FEMA’s message is clear: If you’re going to rebuild, build higher and stronger.

“These are decisions communities are going to have to make together,” said Bill McDonnell, a representative for FEMA’s Office of External Affairs in Trenton. “All we’re trying to do is provide them with the best data available, and we certainly hope townships use this information to enhance their existing ordinances and rebuild smarter.”

If towns along New Jersey’s barrier islands and the Raritan Bay shore adopt the guidance, it will mean a vastly different looking coastline, but one that will be better protected from future storms. An analysis of FEMA and Sandy storm surge data shows in places like Ortley Beach and Union Beach, many homes would need to be raised more than four feet to avoid serious damage from an identical storm. In some locations closest to the water, it could mean raising homes a full-story.

“If you look at the new elevations, it should be raising alarm bells,” said Jeff Tittel, executive director of the New Jersey Sierra Club. “When we rebuild, we have to make sure we’re not putting people in harm’s way. This should really be the foundation for that.”

The map will have no immediate implications on flood insurance policies or rates, FEMA said. Maps that will determine what residents will be required to buy federal flood insurance will be rolled out in the next six to nine months.

But it does give an indication of where the federal agency is heading. A much wider swath of the state is included in the highest risk zones for coastal flooding on the map, which FEMA officials say shows how woefully inadequate the current maps are.

This entry was posted in New Development, New Jersey Real Estate, Shore Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

80 Responses to Battle lines are drawn

  1. chicagofinance says:

    Dedicated to clot from Fox News…….

  2. chicagofinance says:

    I read something about an altercation with four school administrators on Thursday as part of the “motive” angle. Supposedly the source was NBC. However, I haven’t been able to find anything. I am really restricted because I have a 6 yo in the house, and we have been avoiding TV.

  3. 250k says:

    previous thread #124 (nwnj)

    I will take the bait and clarify.

    >>Yeah, the constitution and bill of rights are obsolete, idiot.

    I did not say that the Constitution or Bill of Rights were obsolete. I said we need to revisit them from time to time such as was done in 1920 with the Nineteenth Amendment, which prohibited state or federal sex-based restrictions on voting.

    >>I recall you suggesting state control of private gas supplies after Sandy too.

    My primary issue with the immediate post-Sandy time period was that people who had emergency life-saving medical equipment to run or newborn babies fresh out of the NICU to keep warm, could not find gas to run their generators but their neighbors were having their lawns maintained by machinery that was using an especially valuable commodity. My hope was that as a society, people would choose not to perform non-urgent landscape maintenance but it was quickly pointed out that if the landscapers don’t do their job, they don’t get paid and if they don’t get paid, they can’t buy gas to run the generators in their own homes. Fair enough.

    I own a gun. That is the reason I know how simple the handgun permitting process is. At the time I obtained my permit, I was given a 40-page (large print) pamphlet to study. I stood in a gun shop with a pencil taking the 15-question test. I quickly realized that studying was not necessary. The question I recall the most was: “True or False: It is OK to keep a handgun out in the open even if children are in the home.” It seemed absurd but it does not take much more than that to pass the test in certain states. I took it upon myself to take a handgun safety class over the course of several weeks with much hands-on training. I couldn’t believe it was not a requirement.

    The media is bringing up Japan as a shining example of gun control reducing the homicide rate. It is hard to debate that their restrictive laws have been effective but at what cost? The Japanese have given up many of their personal rights, perhaps too many. My understanding is that unreasonable search and seizure laws are non-existent and the Japanese police search homes without warrants.

    I am certain that would not fit with my “philosophy”.

    As more details on the shooting are reported and verified, we will likely find this was an issue not just of gun control but how we treat people with mental illness in this country as well as other issues.

    Finally, you calling me an idiot really hurt my feelings. Someone needs a time out.

  4. Juice Box says:

    The press is using the wrong Japanese example.

    After WW II ended, the remaining Japanese generals and admirals were asked why they did not invade the US as thy did China and other places. Their answer… they knew that almost every home had guns and the Americans knew how to use them. The world’s largest army… America’s gun owners.

  5. charlie says:

    We should follow the Constitution to its true letter and spirit; “right to bear arms” is that you can have as many single-shot musket as you want

  6. nwnj says:


    Sorry, but you are an idiot if you allow your emotions to be played. Power grubbing politicians love your type. Lets wait to see why this happened before deciding tighter state control is the way to go.

  7. grim says:

    In the new world of political correctness we choose to keep quiet on the real issue.

    The fact that we let the mentally ill freely walk amongst us and our children.

    The problem started when we started treating the mentally ill like they had the flu, these psychos need to be locked up. Bring back the large scale asylums and institutions, lock these sickos up. Deinstitutionalization was clearly the wrong approach.

    The depressed, the bipolar, anxiety issues, antisocial, we need to round all of these deranged lunatics up and put them in internment camps. Bring back the electroshock and sedatives. Bring back forcible sterilization of the ‘feeble-minded’.

    Start with the insurance companies, get lists of anyone prescribed any kind of psychoactive drug and round them up by the busload, get them out of our communities.

    We should keep a close eye on the families of the mentally ill as well, start watch lists, we know that many of these conditions are genetic. These people should be kept away from not only guns, but schools, public places, parks, shopping malls, schools, all of it.

    Let’s talk about the real problem here, the propensity for the mentally ill to commit acts that no reasonable human would ever consider. Clearly coddling has been an ineffective therapy.

    Put ’em up against the wall.

  8. 250k says:

    #7 nwnj

    >>Sorry, but you are an idiot if you allow your emotions to be played.

    Thank goodness you are not the type who would allow your emotions to be played.

    I felt our gun control laws were too weak years ago, before Virginia Tech, before Aurora, before Newtown.

  9. Juice Box says:

    re#7 – I don’t think they will find anything as far as motive. The news says Adam had non contact with his father or brother, no Facebook or online presence, no friends and his mother was his only caretaker and contact with the outside world. I know everyone that has Autism has a different degree etc but a relative of mine has full blown Asperger’s. He almost lacks empathy for people completely and will not say hello or goodbye and only responds to his parents and brother when spoken to. He also treats just about everything as a science project of sorts with intense curiosity, while ignoring the people and things going on around him.

    Why Adam’s mother kept those weapons within his reach is the real problem here. I guess she thought she could control him, but the reality is his motive for mass murder may have been a science project too.

  10. grim says:

    10 – I wouldn’t look towards Facebook or Twitter for any traces of someone with Aspergers, instead I’d focus on online video games. There has been speculation for years that males with Aspergers have a strong propensity for video game addition (presumably as some sort of acceptable quasi-social reality for the strongly anti-social). The Bushmaster .223 would point me in the direction of some of the military/combat games as a start.

  11. Juice Box says:

    Grim the Busmaster wasn’t used, apparently just the handguns.

    Leave it to the NYT to embellish.

    “Investigators have linked Ms. Lanza to five weapons: two powerful handguns, two traditional hunting rifles and a semiautomatic rifle that is similar to weapons used by troops in Afghanistan”

    This kid was home-schooled for the last few years by the mother who thought she could control him. It was her mistake to leave these weapons within his reach and she paid for it with a gunshot to skull at close range.

  12. Grim says:

    12 – I heard the opposite, that it was the long gun that was used.

  13. nwnj says:

    I don’t think the mother was a stranger to the rabbit hole herself, so acting rationally and removing the guns from his reach was not likely. It wouldn’t surprise me if they blamed the school somehow for their problems. Or it could have been a video game inspired fantasy, I suspect they’re figure out that much at least, though the trigger may remain a mystery.

  14. Essex says:

    10. & 14. Yes and Yes. Very in line with my own thinking here. This is a simple personal responsibility issue. Keep a handle on your kid type stuff. Holy Crap. Imagine that kind of freakin’ arsenal at the disposal of someone who lacks any type of empathy AND has anger issues.

  15. Essex says:

    Grim, Thank Ronny Reagan for closing all those big institutions.

  16. Grim says:

    17 – really was intended as a sarcastic commentary on the American politicization of tragedy.

  17. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [18] grim,

    The NYT started the process before the police finished searching the school. We are in for a campaign more heated than the one just ended. The NRA is in for the fight of its life, and the one sure result will be harder battle lines than existed before.

  18. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [17] essex,

    You stepped in it this time. Deinstitutionalization was the rage in the 70’s, and coincided with the IDEA. By the time Reagan was president, many institutions had been emptied and homelessness was the obvious byproduct with more to come. If you want copius proof, send me an email. Mom used to work for the Mass. DMH so I had a front row seat.

  19. 250k says:

    20 Nom

    …. was going to say, wasn’t it a bill of goods sold to Kennedy initially by mental health workers? Something like they oversold the ability to treat many of the mentally ill on an outpatient basis? And then of course never was adequate funding to build and staff these centers? Not saying it was all Kennedy, just saying it started there with a movement to deinstitutionalize and got botched by every leader we have had since then?

  20. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [20] redux

    S/b copious. Spell checker has a sense of humor.

  21. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [21] 250

    IT was more of a civil rights issue, and that wasn’t a Kennedy priority. Recall also that institutional policy was a state issue, not federal, so the feds couldn’t just close facilities.

    My recollection was that a big driver was money. States could save money by closing institutions and farming people to.halfway houses, getting the feds to pick up more of the tab and look all liberal and caring in the process. The shrink profession endorsed this of course since it created a new industry almost overnight.

  22. Phoenix says:

    I’m no lawyer, but from what I read here, if the SHTF, you it’s all AMFyoyo.
    Basically your arms get tied behind your back if I understand correctly.
    Yet Mike Hukabee’s son has a carry permit and tries to bring a gun onto an airplane, as he “forgot” it was there. Some animals are more equal than others I guess.

  23. Phoenix says:

    sorry mistype, for you its all AMF-yoyo.

  24. Ben says:

    First, the officer would have been the first person to be killed in Newtown – the psycho had been seriously armed and wearing body armor. Second, where else you’d suggest posting the police – municipal pools, Chuck-E-Cheeses, amusement rides, YMCA day camps, every school bus?

    Cobbler, I suggest you go look up the purpose of the police department. Rather than putz around with security procedures that are designed to limit the casualties to one class, there are better options out there. You didn’t make a point at all. Every massacre has been at a school and a cop on patrol might have been able to prevent the entire episode.

  25. Chuchundra says:

    I worked in a NY State psych hospital in the late 80’s and you’re absolutely wrong about deinstitutionalization.

    When the first big wave of DI came though in in the 70’s, there were a lot of people who were locked up for pretty bogus reasons. It used to be pretty easy get someone involuntarily committed, especially if you knew a judge or had some other political influence.

    The idea was that people who didn’t need to be in a psych hospital would be discharged and they’d be given help to transition into a normal life. Of course, not enough money was allocated for that, so the majority of the ex-patients had to fend for themselves. The old hands at the hospital told me stories about taking newly discharged patients to the bus station and putting them on buses to NYC.

    The second wave of DI in the 80’s/90’s was based on the idea that a lot of these patients could probably mostly take care of themselves, either in group homes or out on their own, as long as they had a robust support system and that this would both be better for the patients and cheaper overall than warehousing them in mental hospitals.

    So the hospitals were closed but the money for the group homes and social services was cut, so a lot of them were put out on the street and left to fend for themselves.

    The way we deal with mental illness and mental health in the country is a disgrace.

  26. Phoenix says:

    Atlantic City is the new dumping ground for the mentally ill

  27. Ernest Money says:

    The political “solution” to this nuts-with-guns will invariably be a curtailment of personal freedoms for the law-abiding.

    This, BTW, will be a deliberate, conscious act on the part of politicians.

    The really dangerous people in this country are the ones who still think for themselves and love freedom.

  28. Essex says:

    As the facts unfold one has to wonder if she was a regular poster on this here chat board…..

  29. An observer of Jerzy says:

    To #27 Chuchundra.

    I agree with you. Use to be with a volunteer ambulance corps on the Jersey side of the Lincoln Tunnel in the late 80’s & early 90’s. We used to get floods of mentally ill/newly homeless as well as veteran homeless people in burst at a time.

    When we asked them they will tell us – “the hospital let us out with a bus ticket to NYC, and the cop at the PA Bus station put us in a bus to Jersey”. We would take them to St. Mary’s in Hoboken. Some would be admitted and transferred to the county hospital Meadowview in Seacucus. Most would be let go back in the street. Local PD wise up about it and would put in a van/buses or drive them and drop off back in NYC.

  30. relo says:

    In the county we lived in FL there would be a residence (think trailer) set up for an officer on the grounds of each school, elementary through HS. Usually young officer with a young family. Not certain of all the particulars. Different socioeconomics there, of course, but there was a perceived benefit for all involved.

  31. hcg says:

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  32. Ben says:

    In the county we lived in FL there would be a residence (think trailer) set up for an officer on the grounds of each school, elementary through HS. Usually young officer with a young family. Not certain of all the particulars. Different socioeconomics there, of course, but there was a perceived benefit for all involved.

    If you really boil down to it, each school has up to 800 kids in it. It’s not unreasonable for the town or parents to have an officer stationed at each school. Schools are probably the most heavily concentrated building in each and every town in the country.

  33. scribe says:

    The mother had very sophisticated, expensive assault rifles. No private person needs those.

    I know there was a ban on the sale of assault rifles, and it expired in 2004. I’d be pretty sure that one will be re-instated.

  34. joyce says:


    Explosives can be made quite easily using everyday materials. They can kill many more people, quicker and easier, than some scary looking gun.

  35. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [27] chuchundra,

    That may have been your experience in NY State. I won’t dispute that. But that wasn’t how it was carried out in Mass. By the 80’s the major hospitals had been closed and the smaller sites were converted from residential to “day” programs.

  36. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [36] joyce,

    The two largest mass killings in the U.S. were both carried out without guns. Not a single bullet fired.

    Today, I was discussing the assault weapons ban with my mother, a hardcore liberal. I told her that if I took a picture of a bushmaster .223 and a picture of a mini-14 .223, 95 of 100 people would tell me that the bushmaster was the more lethal, more dangerous gun. In reality, there is no difference except weight and color. But most will believe the mini-14 a “safer” weapon. So in the future, it will be the bushmaster owners who get hassled and the ruger owners who don’t.

    That’s why I don’t own a bushmaster.

  37. Anon E. Moose says:

    I grew up on Staten Island in the 80s near Willowbrook. They closed the hospital and turned it into a community college. There’s a joke in there somewhere. But so much for saving money by closing, politicians just found something they liked better to spend it on. People (students) I knew who went there called it 13th grade, and spent most of their time playing cards in the student union.

  38. Anon E. Moose says:


    How’d you like DNC/NBC’s “Heidi” moment tonight? Almost feel sorry for them, but that’s what happens when you sell your soul, Imelt.

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  40. Anon E. Moose says:

    Scribe [35];

    The mother had very sophisticated, expensive assault rifles. No private person needs those.

    Would you have felt better or different if the weapon of choice was a $100 Saturday Night Special or a diamond-studded dagger? Your comment is an odd mix of paternalism and populism.

  41. scribe says:


    He was able to get off lots of shots rapidly because of the assault gun. It’s an especially deadly weapon. If they hadn’t gotten there so fast, he might have killed a lot more.

  42. joyce says:

    With gasoline he could have killed everyone.

  43. morpheus says:

    From prior post: “Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.
    ‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’”

    And so it begins

  44. morpheus says:

    42: strange…I agree with moose. So she had an .223 bushmaster and a couple of handguns and this constitues an arsenal? do does that fact that I own a AK wanabe make me a terrorist? Please tell me why I really dont need that…I guess i can depend on the government to protect me.

  45. Punch My Ticket says:

    grim [8] – Hard to tell if you’re joking. Do you really want to institutionalize 15% of the populace?

    scribe [35] – Your argument is a joke. Are we banning things people don’t need? I nominate —– ipads. Are we banning things that look scary? I nominate —— Carol Channing.

    The 94-04 “assault weapons” ban was a complete joke, easily worked around by manufacturers, and with no demonstrated effect on violence perpetrated by firearm. The ban was theater. Any new ban will be theater.

    People are letting their emotions run away with them. They’re also being played by a bunch of unemotional agenda driven thugs, among them every politician that was on TV today.

    Our children are precious. So is freedom.

  46. Punch My Ticket says:

    scribe [43] –

    I’ll lay odds that you have, on hand in your kitchen, more than one knife with which you could kill 20 terrified 6 year olds in under 5 minutes.

    Get a grip.

  47. Phoenix says:

    This woman had a clearly disturbed person living in her house that she was having difficulty controlling. The same disturbed person she took to a gun range to “enjoy her hobby.” Next she allowed this disturbed person access to the weapons. This woman was aware of her child’s issues from early on. I place blame squarely on the owner of the guns, not on the fact that she was able to buy one. You don’t give car keys to a 7 year old either. Her lack of judgement was reprehensible. Obviously her son felt the same way.

  48. scribe says:

    How Congress Screwed Up And Let The Assault Weapons Ban Expire

  49. scribe says:

    Rapid-fire assault weapons with large clips of ammunition have only one purpose: the mass slaughter of large numbers of human beings. They were designed for use by the military to achieve that mission in combat – and that mission alone.

  50. Ernest Money says:

    Every day, we wake up a little less free. And it’s not because of the existence of guns.

    My wife is a school secretary (she’s the first person you encounter after entering the front door, and she has photographs in a prominent spot on her desk of three parents who are known to be armed and have restraining orders against them), skews way left politically…and told a friend of ours tonight: “I don’t want guns outlawed or taken away from law-abiding people; I don’t trust the government or the police, and the day might come when I need to protect myself against them.”

    I wanted to have a moment of satisfaction about being able to influence her (perhaps, after 24 years of marriage, she just suffers from Stockholm Syndrome), then I realized that despite having a far different frame of reference on the world than mine, she lately come to the same damn conclusion I came to a long time ago.

  51. Ernest Money says:

    scribe (51)-

    That’s why I want one. If the bad guys come after me with these things, I don’t want to be outgunned.

    “Rapid-fire assault weapons with large clips of ammunition have only one purpose: the mass slaughter of large numbers of human beings. They were designed for use by the military to achieve that mission in combat – and that mission alone.”

  52. Ernest Money says:

    Then again, the biggest assault weapon available in this country is a pen and piece of paper in the hands of a politician.

  53. McDullard says:

    #8 grim
    “The depressed, the bipolar, anxiety issues, antisocial, we need to round all of these deranged lunatics up and put them in internment camps.”

    Wow! You would be talking about over 90% of the population. This is wildly more extreme than “ban all guns”. Why not reinstate the somewhat less expensive solution of better mental health (which were cut quite a bit)? If you intended it as a joke… too soon.

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  58. Brian says:

    Hmm. So ban crazy people or ban guns…

    I always got the feeling that people who owned weapons like the bushmaster .223 were a little nuts…..

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  60. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [51] scribe,

    There are also unintended benefits in design. I, for one, like the idea of a lighter rifle that I don’t have to reload constantly while target shooting with friends. You’ve no idea what a PITA loading and reloading mags can be when there are a few of you taking turns with a rifle.

  61. Dodging Bullets HEHEHE says:

    “We should follow the Constitution to its true letter and spirit; “right to bear arms” is that you can have as many single-shot musket as you want”

    This is another lefty looney one liner they trot out when they talk gun control – you know who else only had single shot muskets back then Einstein? Every government in the world. If you let the government go back to single shot muskets then I am sure most law abiding gun owners would do the same.

    I don’t own a gun, probably never will, but I do know the biggest deterrent to tyranny or occupation is a well armed populace; so I’d like to thank all of the responsible gun owning Americans out there keeping my liberties safe.

  62. Dodging Bullets HEHEHE says:

    “Rapid-fire assault weapons with large clips of ammunition have only one purpose: the mass slaughter of large numbers of human beings. They were designed for use by the military to achieve that mission in combat – and that mission alone.”

    Precisely. So if the government gives up theirs first then the populace would be more than willing to give up theirs.

  63. Ernest Money says:

    We are about to be demagogued into complete submission. Can’t help but think that everyone in the WH is repeating Rahm’s mantra of “you never want a serious crisis to go to waste”.

    Get ready for a total muzzling of the law-abiding, all in the name of safety.

    Ironically, the ranks of gun-toting nuts out there will probably expand after the attempt to legislate against crazy.

  64. Ernest Money says:

    About all Washington has proved itself capable of in the past 20 years is offering up proof after proof of the Law of Unintended Consequences. I think the mother of these scenarios is about to play out.

  65. Ernest Money says:

    Perhaps the answer lies in the wider use of medical marijuana.

  66. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [65] ernest

    Guns are, at a minimum, insurance: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

    But you’re right. We are in for the demagoguing of our lives and a hardening of the lines with fewer in the middle camp.

    [60] Brian,

    To borrow a line from a “Doomsday Prepper” episode, the bushmaster owner might ask “am I crazy or are you?”

  67. Brian says:


    Growing up, I was never allowed anywhere near any weapon that fired anything. I was never even allowed to have a BB gun. And I was raised by a father who knew everything about weapons and warfare. I guess some of his lessons rubbed off on me.

    This was his unit:

    My father witnessed firsthand what these weapons were meant for. He knew what human beings are capable of at their worst. I’m not advocating for stricter gun control or anything, just saying people who own these things ought to use this as a time to reflect…..and understand what it is they own and how they live their lives.

    It must be because of my father but anytime anyone bragged about having a gun or an assault weapon I instantly lost some respect for them.

  68. Nomad says:

    So if we set aside a moment the debate about firearms, we can then talk about the evolution of our society in the United States. I would not even engage in the gun control debate, no matter which side I take, I would get labeled as wrong. Wondering if this problem is exponentially more complicated than any of us realize and if it can even be solved.

    – Double incomes working longer hours than ever, kids without someone to meet them when they get home from school.
    – Parent so exhausted, their interaction with their kids is minimal in terms of time / quality.
    – Dinner as a family, a lot rarer today than 30+ years ago.
    – Kids under immense pressure to perform academically along with all the superficial stuff to look the right way, own the right i-crap and the list goes on and on.
    – Instability in the job market creates stress at home.
    – Once upon a time you could take your high school diploma and get a job that paid enough money to raise a family – perhaps in a modest fashion but a roof over all of your heads in a safe neighborhood and 3 squares a day.
    – Behaviors of kids (an adults for that matter) that are accepted and tolerated today that once upon a time would have resulted in the school taking a piece of lumber to little Johnnie’s backside several decades ago.
    – Lack of general discipline and respect by all members of our society.

    The list goes on.

    I wonder what the discussion about this horrible tragedy will be like by mid-Jan?

  69. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [69] Brian,

    Dad was a cop and I’m sure he felt the same way.

    I first shot 22s in camp at 8. Did a lot of shooting with friends, all military or hunters. All had healthy attitudes about guns. As for me, I like to think that I’m smart enough to know I’m no expert and that the unexpected is possible.

    As for bragging, it would depend on the context. If someone was bragging about the pair of Purdys they just bought, I wouldn’t be concerned about him or her.

    One thing that we will see in the future, and one I can tell you is already playing out writ small: left wing advocates and leftist in gov are going after legal owners one at a time by alleging mental illness or threatening behavior. I read that one of the people on “Doomsday Preppers” got a visit from the state after the episode aired; some doc he never met swore out an affidavit that, in the docs opinion, the guy was unstable. Cops come, lock him up, seize his guns and ammo, then a short time later drop the entire issue and he is released. But they don’t give back the hardware; if he wants it, he has to sue for it. I’ve been approached by people who wanted to hire me for similar situations but I don’t do that type of law.

    A word of caution to owners: if you are going to advocate, do so anonymously and in an untraceable way. Trust me when I tell you that those who advocate publicly risk a knock on the door by guys with a warrant.

  70. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [70] nomad,

    All that and more. This is a debate in which every cause being discussed is, in some way, a contributing factor.

    This is going to be ugly. No good will come voice in this matter so I’m making a point of staying out of it except to offer a view from the bench.

  71. joyce says:


    Not sure if anyone is on this thread anymore, but absolutely I agree that Nomad’s list of questions & comments is spot on. What’s the biggest reason that one income cannot raise a family of four relatively comfortably allowing one spouse to be with the family a large % of the time… is it inflation? And of course we all know inflation of the common man’s wages nowhere near keeps up with the cost of living. (before even getting into offshoring, taxes, etc).

  72. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [69] Brian,

    I almost forgot: Urr rah! Lot of globe and anchor pins in the extended DePlume clan.

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