From the WSJ:
Housing Prices Are on a Tear, Thanks to the Fed
The U.S. housing market has broken out of a deep slump, and prices are shooting up faster than anyone thought possible a year ago. For many homeowners, that is a cause for celebration.
But the speed at which prices are rising is prompting murmurs of concern that the Federal Reserve’s campaign to reduce interest rates could be giving the housing market a sugar high.
Prices of existing homes rose 10% in February nationally from a year ago. They have been rising during the seasonally slow winter months—and they show signs of jumping further as the spring buying season gets under way. What’s going on?
First, inventories of homes available to buy have fallen to 20-year lows. Home builders have added little in the way of new construction since 2008. Banks are selling fewer foreclosures. Investors have scooped up more homes, converting them to rentals.
…
Demand has also revved up, first from investors buying homes below their replacement costs, and later as rising rents and falling interest rates encouraged more first-time buyers to purchase homes that have monthly payments that are less than what it costs to rent.
…
But the population never stopped growing. Households simply doubled up. Between 2008 and 2010, the country had around two million households that “couldn’t wait to launch on their own,” says Mike Simonsen, chief executive of Altos Research. Many of those new households have been renters, but more are opting to buy.The upshot is that, in a reversal from just two years ago, demand is outstripping the available supply. Even though sales volumes could be constrained this year by low inventories, some economists say prices are set to soar. “A lot of folks are realizing, ‘Wow, there is no second wave of foreclosures. Interest rates if anything could head up. Prices are rising. If I’m going to get in I better get in now,'” says Christopher Thornberg, a housing economist with Beacon Economics in Los Angeles.
…
So is this the beginning of another bubble? Not really. For now, home prices on a national basis are still below their long-run average relative to incomes. “The recovery is solid. There are pure fundamentals you can point to,” says John Burns, chief executive of a real-estate consulting firm in Irvine, Calif.But he says the housing market is turning up sharply, “hockey-sticking faster than it otherwise would,” because of investors, low inventories and low mortgage rates. The worry is that if prices keep rising at their current pace, “we’re going to have a real affordability problem” once rates move above 6%, says Mr. Burns.
Buyers face a dilemma: paying more for a home today, compared with a year ago, or paying even more tomorrow at a time when interest rates might also be higher.
“It’s been a lot slower process than we had hoped it would be, and things were getting a lot more expensive,” says David Fritsche, a retired architect who lost bids on six properties in the past six months before closing last week on a home in Rancho Santa Margarita, Calif. He and his wife, Darlene, want to be closer to their daughter’s family but plan to hang onto their old home in Phoenix for a few years.
Had Home Depot convince me to let one of their cabinet geeks give us an estimate on cabinet refacing. So the dude comes last night and did a lot of BSing. Finally says that the refacing, granite counter top, and tile backsplash would run app. $20k. He claims that a brand new kitchen-replacing cabinets- would run at least 50k-60k. This doesn’t sound right to me. Anyone out there have their kitchen done who can recommend? The refacing – btw- would be new doors, new drawers, new crown (which wasn’t as nice as the existing), sanding and staining frame.
You are being ripped off and lied to.
Behind the WSJ pay wall, courtesy of Calculated Risk.
DL
Prices of existing homes rose 10% in February nationally from a year ago. They have been rising during the seasonally slow winter months—and they show signs of jumping further as the spring buying season gets under way. What’s going on?
First, inventories of homes available to buy have fallen to 20-year lows. Home builders have added little in the way of new construction since 2008. Banks are selling fewer foreclosures. Investors have scooped up more homes, converting them to rentals.
Many borrowers, meanwhile, aren’t willing or able to sell at prices that are down sharply from their 2006 highs, despite a greater inclination among banks to approve short sales. Tight lending standards mean some owners will hold back from selling because they aren’t sure they would qualify for a mortgage on their next home.
Demand has also revved up, first from investors … and later as rising rents and falling interest rates encouraged more first-time buyers to purchase homes …
Improving home-price expectations have also unleashed pent up demand. The U.S. added around 1.3 million households a year for the 10-year period ending in 2007, after which household formation fell to more than half that level. Household formation was lower in the five years following the housing bust than any period since the 1960s, according to Altos Research, an analytics firm in Mountain View, Calif.
But the population never stopped growing. Households simply doubled up. Between 2008 and 2010, the country had around two million households that “couldn’t wait to launch on their own,” says Mike Simonsen, chief executive of Altos Research. Many of those new households have been renters, but more are opting to buy.
Read more at http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/#bGi94xD3qzfVtQcb.99
Good Morning New Jersey
#1
Thought so, but just double checking. I will shop around for all possibilities and then decide. I have to get a new roof first anyway.
Add the Illegals that will get amnesty soon.Homeowners that got foreclosed or short sale and the 3 years waiting period is up and ready to buy another home. Millenials getting ready to be on their own.
” But the population never stopped growing. Households simply doubled up. Between 2008 and 2010, the country had around two million households that “couldn’t wait to launch on their own,” says Mike Simonsen, chief executive of Altos Research. Many of those new households have been renters, but more are opting to buy.”
“Finally says that the refacing, granite counter top, and tile backsplash would run app. $20k.”
You could probably get 2 Ikea kitchens with all new cabinets, stainless appliances, granite counters and backsplash of your choice for $20k and donate your old kitchen for a tax write off.
According to the teatards that post comments on this blog, housing bubbles are directly correlated to the number of Obamaphones in use.
According to the teatards that post comments on this blog, housing bubbles are directly correlated to the number of Obamaphones in use.
That makes sense. You need unsuspecting victims in order to execute the muse. What better group than the ill-informed Oblama supporters?
Party at the Fed!
Interest rates if anything could head up. Prices are rising. If I’m going to get in I better get in now,’” says Christopher Thornberg, a housing economist with Beacon Economics in Los Angeles.
Click your ruby heels together Dorothy, and repeat three times, “Buy now or be priced out forever… buy now or be priced out forever… buy now or be priced out forever.”
“That makes sense. You need unsuspecting victims in order to execute the muse. What better group than the ill-informed Oblama supporters?”
By “informed” you’re referring to people who believe women shoot magic juice out of their tw@ts to stop rape babies, of course.
Watch Japan. The vigilantes are headed there next.
It all ends in tears, folks.
Finally!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJoj9IqeKg
The Mexicans in the Home Depot Parking Lot offer much better prices.
grim says:
April 8, 2013 at 6:31 am
Had Home Depot convince me to let one of their cabinet geeks give us an estimate on cabinet refacing. So the dude comes last night and did a lot of BSing. Finally says that the refacing, granite counter top, and tile backsplash would run app. $20k. He claims that a brand new kitchen-replacing cabinets- would run at least 50k-60k. This doesn’t sound right to me. Anyone out there have their kitchen done who can recommend? The refacing – btw- would be new doors, new drawers, new crown (which wasn’t as nice as the existing), sanding and staining frame.
You are being ripped off and lied to.
that old british crow finally croaked
Colbert quoting poem by Ayn Rand:
https://twitter.com/StephenAtHome/status/294303857134153728
The End Is Nigh (Timeout Edition):
Did you know Chris Weber was the host of the halftime studio show of the NYK-OKC game on ABC? WTF?
Finished my taxes last night, I felt like I did rope a dope with Joe Frazer, George Foreman and Leon Spinks at same time. My brain was as mushy as Alli afterwards
JJ did you charge yourself a fee?
Otto [11];
By “informed” you’re referring to people who believe women shoot magic juice out of their tw@ts to stop rape babies, of course.
You’re confused. It was a Colorado Democrat Joe Slazar who supported women on their university campuses be prohibited from carrying guns… the school already told women to just pee their pants to stop an attaching rapist.
Anon [15];
You should be lucky enough to have anyone even speak badly about you when you shake off the mortal coil.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/la-fi-harsh-work-20130407,0,1951040.story
My wife let me have desert on the coach and put the kids to bed for doing it.
Sandy Casualty Loss Calculations where you determine the date and purchase price, fair market value value day before and day after storm of the item and calculate its salvage value after storm was fun.
Anyhow know fair market value of items such as a large hand made doll house, sewer pipe, 55 year old oil burner, wall to wall carpet etc on Oct 28. Salvage value on October 29. Scrap metal value of oil burner calculation is fun. Then back out FEMA proceeds.
Funniest fair market value of entire house on October 28 then fair market value on October 30.
I am not even sure what fair market value today. Either way got a nice tax write off. However, estimate tax bill due April 15 so some goes back out the door.
Juice Box says:
April 8, 2013 at 9:39 am
JJ did you charge yourself a fee?
Natasha: Here’s where I got my supplies: http://www.cabinetdoorsdepot.com
Most important thing is don’t forget the WATER-BASED contact cement. It creates a really good bond with the peel-and-stick. Measure 3 times, cut once. Hanging the doors can be a bit of a hassle but not too bad once you get the hang of it. The one thing I wish I’d done was paint the interiors, but my built-in-place plywood stick-built 1950’s cabinets are very knotty pine, and the knots would have looked terrible no matter what.
[13, 15]
Funny, when Kennedy croaked, I recall the left fulminating with mock outrage whenever similar sentiments were posted.
Hypocrisy, thy name is liberal.
[18] JJ
I thought IRS told you that you don’t have to file forms anymore in appreciation for your contributions to mankind?
On Thatcher.
I know a Geordie who is doubtless celebrating. Says we Americans don’t understand how Thatcher killed industry in the northeast. So I asked him if it ever came back and he said no. I asked him if it was doing well before Thatcher and he said no. I asked him if Blair did anything to revive it and he said no.
I don’t profess to know much about the British industrial economy in the 80’s, but blaming Thatcher for the demise of UK Labor and British heavy industry is like blaming the doctor for a terminally ill patient for observing a DNR.
A shame really. Those British cars were so reliable.
Or perhaps a more apt analogy would be of a critically ill amputee who is furious at the ER doc who amputated his dangerously gangrenous leg after he was wheeled into the OR near death. He really loved that leg.
[22] JJ
The final line at the bottom says it all.
And on a related note, I’m surprised that plant still exists. Just goes to show that even in Mass, you needn’t go far to find yourself in Appalachia. Really, once you go outside 495, it’s a different state.
Well, off to drop in on my judge and then get back across the river.
Fed is artificially pumping this market. When they stop buying $85B of bonds each month to keep rates low, watch out. Home prices will most likely rise as rates will rise as well. $1000 dollars per month buys much less debt at 6% than it does right now at 3.75%. First-time homebuyers also have to compete with investors who are buying in cash and in bulk. I’d be surprised if we don’t have yet another bubble forming right before our eyes.
The real buyers right now buy cash. Whole big article in WSJ Saturday. They are buying cash as with rates so low, treasuries, investment grade bonds and munis pay near zero unless you go long term and stocks are fully valued. Folks are parking cash in real estate.
If rates rise, forget about low brow mortgage folk. The 30% of all home purchased in cash will be gone. If Bonds are once again yielding 6% on investment grade who is buying real estate that only appreciates at best 3%.
Home Loan Rates says:
April 8, 2013 at 11:58 am
Fed is artificially pumping this market. When they stop buying $85B of bonds each month to keep rates low, watch out. Home prices will most likely rise as rates will rise as well. $1000 dollars per month buys much less debt at 6% than it does right now at 3.75%. First-time homebuyers also have to compete with investors who are buying in cash and in bulk. I’d be surprised if we don’t have yet another bubble forming right before our eyes.
Nom some classic Thatcher
The policies we introduced in the 1980s were fiercely opposed. Too many people and industries preferred to rely on easy subsidies rather than apply the financial discipline necessary to cut their costs and become competitive. Others preferred the captive customers that a monopoly can command or the secure job in an overmanned industry, rather than the strenuous life of liberty and enterprise.
But we understood that a system of free enterprise has a universal truth at its heart: to create a genuine market in a state you have to take the state out of the market.
Really are no influential politicians left with real backbones to do the right thing regardless of political winds. Christie does not count.
#10
Click your ruby heels together Dorothy, and repeat three times, “Buy now or be priced out forever… buy now or be priced out forever… buy now or be priced out forever.”
Nice one!
I consider myself open minded. I follow the money. Grim has been pounding the table on the strength of the real estate market, and I was inclined to believe him. In contrast, I saw a story about the composition of the buyers in the market a few weeks ago and made note of it here. The following article is in the same vein. I consider this information a warning signal. Pay attention to it. If it sounds familiar, it should. The plot of the story is always the same on every one of these cycles, only the details are different. Use caution as you go out there looking at residential real estate. Your competition for property has different tactics and motivations than you.
Wall Street Journal
WEEKEND INVESTOR
Cheaper by the Dozen
By TELIS DEMOS
Investing in single-family homes is becoming increasingly popular—and now Wall Street has dreamed up a new way for investors to become landlords without worrying about 3 a.m. plumbing calls or late rent payments.
Over the past year or two, firms that invest in real estate have been snapping up foreclosed homes for a fraction of what they fetched before 2008. Now the firms own tens of thousands of single-family homes, and some have begun to sell them in tiny slices to hedge funds, pension funds and individual investors in the form of real-estate investment trusts.
Some of these investment vehicles began as privately held REITs but are now going public, opening their doors to investors of all stripes and joining the REITs that own apartment complexes and commercial properties that have been around for decades. Right now, two single-family REITs have gone public, and at least two more have announced they plan to do so.
“There will likely be a number of IPOs looking at this generational opportunity to shift home rental from individual landlords to institutional players,” says Stephanie Ruiz, a managing director at Credit Suisse Group, which was an underwriter on the initial public offering of Silver Bay Realty Trust, one of the first single-family REITs to list.
The idea sounds promising, given the boom in rentals since the financial crisis. But the business model still is in the early innings, and it isn’t clear how efficient it is. Much will depend, analysts say, on the expertise of individual managers in such nts-and-bolts items as leases and building maintenance.
Investors are nibbling, in part because they are hungry for returns at a time when interest rates are hovering near zero and in part because there are strong signs of a housing-market recovery. REITs, which don’t pay income taxes if they pay out at least 90% of their earnings to investors in the form of dividends, offer relatively high yields.
“What’s clear today is there’s a real hunger for yield, and single-family homes offer yield and appreciation potential,” says Gary Beasley, chief executive of Waypoint Homes, an Oakland, Calif., firm founded in 2008 that now owns and manages more than 3,500 homes.
Warren Buffett, chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, told CNBC last year that if it were possible, he would buy “a couple hundred thousand” single-family homes and hold them for a long period.
Property-owning REITs on average carried dividend yields of 3.3% as of the end of March, according to the National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts, an industry group. Some experts say that single-family-home REITs could eventually yield more than 5%.
Yet there is no guarantee the new REITs will be able to deliver consistently high returns or income. While residential rental rates have broadly been rising since the financial crisis, in some market segments the gains are slowing or reversing. For example, the median rent on three-bedroom homes in the Atlanta and Dallas markets declined by more than 1% in March versus a year ago, according to RentRange, a housing data provider.
“Historically, it’s been an individual managing a couple properties locally, and now we have institutions trying to do it at scale,” says Rick Sharga, executive vice president of Carrington Mortgage Holdings, a home investment and management firm in Aliso Viejo, Calif. “But there’s not a lot of history to go on, so it’s difficult to make a bet not knowing exactly what the behavior is going to be in this new asset class.”
The key for investors looking at these REITs is finding the ones that get the details right, says Credit Suisse’s Ms. Ruiz. “It will be about knowing when to make two-year leases, how to buy homes in good school districts, and how much money to sink into kitchens,” she says.
Where to Invest
Does it makes as much sense to own a sliver of 10,000 homes as it does to own just one?
Owning and renting out a home can, in theory, exceed the returns on many different types of yield-focused investments. The average metropolitan-area residential property nationally should generate a risk-adjusted annual yield—known as the capitalization rate, or “cap rate”—of 5.4%, according to housing research firm Local Market Monitor.
The potential headaches of being a landlord include prolonged vacancies, unexpected maintenance and repair costs, deadbeat tenants and difficulty refinancing. And if you own only one or two properties, your exposure to a catastrophic event—fire or flooding, for example—grows exponentially larger.
In addition, repair costs are greater for single-family-home rentals than they are for comparable apartments in a single complex.
George Siddons is a big believer that owning a single home can be a worthwhile investment. His firm, the Glendale, Ariz.-based Key Management, handles maintenance, rental and other management tasks for about 680 properties. Most of his clients own just one investment home.
But he says that approach comes with plenty of headaches and hidden costs, such as the fact that you can end up owing taxes on improvements when you sell a home.
Mr. Siddons says experience has taught him that managing dozens of homes spread out across a single city, much less the country, doesn’t lend itself to scale, such as buying paint and other supplies in bulk.
“If you had apartment complexes, that would be best to do it that way. But for single-family houses it doesn’t work,” he says. There are just too many differences in the ages of homes, their individual fixtures and problems, to scale, he says.
The REITs propose to deal with those headaches by spreading them out over thousands of properties.
Unlike someone who owns one home, or even hundreds, they have opportunities to reduce costs through big investments in technology, and by scouring the country to find properties that all fill the same basic profile, in terms of tenant turnover and the state of repair of the homes.
“You have to look at your level of pain,” Mr. Siddons says. “Can you stand being a landlord? If you can stand to buy a couple of properties and hire a management company, that’s the way to go. If you don’t want to be that much involved, then the REITs are the smarter way to go.”
[edit]
grim un mod…..I can’t fathom what is the problem….
Fast,
Gee, let me check on the sellers who have increased their asking price because of the ‘soaring market’. Hhhmm..no one has in the last 2 weeks. In fact, 5 price declines. I guess this pundit narrative is like ‘the recession ended in 2009’. Say it enough to get people to believe this horse manure. Prices not declining does not mean prices are rising.
Vigoda > Funicello
NJ and LI are not taking part in the RE recovery like rest of country.
Remember, their prices plunged much more, their taxes are much less and they dont have one million homes in a flood zone for sale right now.
damn chi beat me to it.
#30,
Its good that prices will rise. I guess you have also figured out that companies will pay more too. Please send corp. america the memo as I mistakenly thought that we had a job shortage in this country.
Former Mouseketeer Annette Funicello dies at 70
Mic – C you real soon, ke-Y – Y because I like you, deaD, as a Doornail
Mike says:
April 8, 2013 at 2:31 pm
Former Mouseketeer Annette Funicello dies at 70
http://menrec.com/unreal-one-of-bloombergs-mayors-against-illegal-guns-arrested-for-trying-to-force-man-to-have-sex-with-him-at-gunpoint/
One of the gun-grabbing members of Michael Bloomberg’s organization, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, recently found himself trying to lure a man into a sexual encounter through the liberal use of alcohol. When the charm and alcohol didn’t do the trick, James ‘Jay’ Schiliro (R) decided to go a different route – firing a handgun into a wall in an attempt at intimidation.
The mayor who, as the title suggests, is against illegal guns, was forced to hand over his firearm collection, and has been charged with several crimes.
Via the Inquisitr:
A member of the Michael Bloomberg-sponsored gun control organization “Mayors Against Illegal Guns” has been arrested and charged in connection with a handgun incident at his home.
James Schiliro, a.k.a. Jay Schiliro, the mayor of Marcus Hook, a small town in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, faces charges of official oppression, reckless endangerment, unlawful restraint, false imprisonment, and furnishing a minor with alcohol. He surrendered to authorities on Thursday morning, and his attorney declared that “we intend to fight these charges.”
Schiliro, 38, allegedly ordered a local police officer to bring a 20-year-old male friend to his home, where the mayor plied him with alcohol, and made sexual advances which the man refused. Schiliro allegedly brandished several handguns and fired one of them into the floor in an apparent attempt to intimidate the young man, who reportedly was in fear of his life.
The mayor was freed on $50,000 bail and told to stay away from the alleged victim and give up his stash of firearms.
More details from the Philadelphia Inquirer:
When the man repeatedly refused, Schiliro, who as mayor controls the police department, started to pull out handguns, informed the man that he was “going to be a hostage,” fired a 9 mm bullet into the wall and said that he’d ordered police to stay away from the house, the report states.
And an article in the Daily Local News indicates the mayor tried to dump his firearm collection, selling eight weapons shortly after the incident.
According to the Examiner, Schiliro was one of 600 mayors who recently signed a letter asking the U.S. Senate to enact tougher gun laws.
You know, the kind that would keep a drunken mayor from demanding gay sex with a handgun. Is that anywhere in President Obama’s executive orders?
Joyce if he was a cop he would have got to keep his guns. I am not surprised probaly thought his special status as part of the proliteriat would allow him to coninue to keep his firearms. It is us little people who can not be trusted.
Bloombergs little cabal of nannies are going to do just as many wonders for firearms sales as the good chairman.
Joyce did you see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtnxGEQatJI
apparently they aren’t our kids anymore. I think MSNBC let a little too much of the curtain drop on that one.
Pain,
Yes, the collective. I stumbled across it on the blog “Pro Libertate” (great reading, but only posts a handful of times a month).
The mayor in that article… is $50,000 bail appropriate for those charges? You know what I mean, would a commoner, a mere mortal, have a similar bail. I know it was in PA and not NJ, but I wonder if there was any law he broke specifically relating to firearms. Doesn’t appear as if he was charged with any.
RE 42,
all that article proves is that 20 year old guys are so lazy you cant even get them to do a job even if at gun point.
(45)
Another non-humorous swing and a miss.
There’s a great saying in the real estate business. To succeed in life, you want to be:
The First Child
The Second Spouse
The Third Realtor
Joyce that is a stupid article. First of all it is some nobody loser 20 year old trying to get lawsuit money.
If the kid was for real, meaning good family, great college on his way to be a lawyer white shoe law firm, working a desk at Goldman or on to Harvard Business School he would have got the heck out of there and never said a word.
How he ended up drunk alone in a hotel room with a middle age man about to shove his schong in his mouth and holding a hand gun
The guy is a joke forever, hope he gets some good cash from this one time deal
JJ,
Do you find it hard to hide the fact that you’re gay?
#48 JJ there is really nothing funny about this. It is really messed up, I don’t really see the relevance of it being a 20 yr old male vs. a female it is deplorable to invite a person and then to proceeded to ply a minor with alcohol for sex and then attempt to hold them against their will and intimidate them with guns while abusing your political power in an attempt to get away with it. I don’t care if the 20yr is a prostitute, no means no and it is heinous to detain someone against their will brandishing a gun. This guy should have been held without bail until trial. If any regular citizen did something like this they’d be sitting in jail until the trial.
JJ, you should know predators tend to go after the easy kill, the white shoe law firm or GS kid has credibility, not vulnerable enough. How much do you want to bet the kid is poor and troubled, that is who predators go after, someone who’s credibility is suspect at best and who is likely not to be believed when they make the accusations. If the mayor of podunk town had gotten away with it and raped the kid, chances are you wouldn’t be hearing about it because of the shame of coming forward. Would be interest to know if this has happened before with this mayor.
Jcer [52];
I’ll grant you all that… but someone would still have to explain the gunshot/bullet hole in the wall.
Bloomberg would’ve sucked his c@ck with no resistance. Dope.
Gold, bitchez!
Gee, let me check on the sellers who have increased their asking price because of the ‘soaring market’. Hhhmm..no one has in the last 2 weeks.
This is not the way in which the behavior would manifest itself. Highly unlikely that an on-market property would raise asking price with no interest (if it’s not sold, there is no interest, if it was underpriced relative to market it likely would have spurred a bidding war). It would actually play out as new listings coming to market at prices above current comps. The challenge here is there is no way to categorize the reason an overpriced listing comes to market. Suppose you might look at the percentage of overpriced listings as a part of all new listings, and potentially expect to see an increase there.
The Trulia asking price indices (Price Monitor) might be the easiest version of this, as long as you accept the categorization limitations.
http://info.trulia.com/index.php?s=32056
Moose,
The article I posted was someone’s opinion with two different news sources intertwined. One source said the mayor fired into the wall; the other source said into the floor. The sources conflict, but neither say two shots were fired if that’s what you’re thinking.
Anon E. Moose says:
April 8, 2013 at 5:49 pm
Jcer [52];
I’ll grant you all that… but someone would still have to explain the gunshot/bullet hole in the wall.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/07/auburn-man-facing-charges-after-killing-bear-in-his-backyard/
So much wrong with this story; I guess I’ll start with the charge of ‘failure to secure a weapon’ … so I guess it’s illegal to carry a gun in your own backyard. Yup, that’s not an “infringement” not even close.
All I will say is that Marcus Hook is a cesspool. I wouldn’t drive thru it without my gat. And how a republican got to be mayor of a welfare state like Marcus Hood is beyond me.
also “illegal possession of a firearm” … wtf, I was just told to go out and buy a shotgun.
[58] Joyce.
That’s how it’s done in the People’s Republic of Mass. He wasn’t charged because he killed a bear, he was charged because someone in Mass gov learned he had a working firearm. I guarantee you that this will all go away once the guy “voluntarily” decides to “contribute” his firearms to the local constable. That’s how it’s done there, I’ve seen it firsthand.
[44] pain,
That’s great. So I can slap her little brats around when they get noisy because they’re my kids too! I like it.
Joyce that’s nothing. In my town it’s illegal to discharge a firearm within city limits. Punishable by time in prison. It’s a law that’s probably not all that uncommon.
joyce says:
April 8, 2013 at 7:49 pm
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/07/auburn-man-facing-charges-after-killing-bear-in-his-backyard/
So much wrong with this story; I guess I’ll start with the charge of ‘failure to secure a weapon’ … so I guess it’s illegal to carry a gun in your own backyard. Yup, that’s not an “infringement” not even close.
Pry my guns out of my cold, dead hands.
63
How many police have they charged under that ordinance? Or is there an exception for the emperor’s guards? Is there an exception for the second class citizens who might need to fire for self-defense?
Exception for cops. You can bear your arms…..you just can’t use them.
109. FIREARMS
[HISTORY: Adopted by the Town Council of the Town of Newton 6-8-1970 as Sec. 5-6 of the Revised General Ordinances. Amendments noted where applicable.]
§ 109-1. Prohibited.
It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearms within the Town of Newton.
§ 109-2. Definitions.
As used in this chapter, the following terms shall have the meanings indicated:
FIREARM
Includes any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, air gun, air pistol, or any instrument from which any shot, bullet, or other missile is propelled.
§ 109-3. Exceptions.
This chapter shall not be intended to include any person authorized to discharge a firearm by reason of his membership in any police department or other law enforcement agency, or any peace officer or other person authorized by law to carry and discharge firearms in the carrying out of their duties, or the discharge of a firearm for any lawful purpose; nor is this section intended to apply to any firearms demonstration, shooting match, course in gun safety, or other event wherein the discharge of firearms occurs and where such event has been approved by the Town Council.
or the discharge of a firearm for any lawful purpose
Self defense is considered a lawful purpose.
Tell it to the judge pal.
grim says:
April 8, 2013 at 9:12 pm
or the discharge of a firearm for any lawful purpose
Self defense is a lawful purpose.
I was about to say the same thing, Grim…. then saw your post.
(68)
Rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6 ?
#66 Brian
A nice sensible ordinance. It stops my friend Billy setting up target practice in his back yard and forgetting that his bullets don’t stop at his property line and the kids next door are actually in the line of fire. It allows the cops to dispatch the buck at the side of 94 that was hit by a car and allows the Appalachian Bowmen to run the Hunter Education course.
Where’s the problem?
#64 Clot
just for you.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/0433b30576/cold-dead-hand-with-jim-carrey
Because it destroys the presumption of innocence when “ordinary citizens” fire their weapons for lawful purposes.
Fabius Maximus says:
April 8, 2013 at 9:37 pm
#66 Brian
A nice sensible ordinance. It stops my friend Billy setting up target practice in his back yard and forgetting that his bullets don’t stop at his property line and the kids next door are actually in the line of fire. It allows the cops to dispatch the buck at the side of 94 that was hit by a car and allows the Appalachian Bowmen to run the Hunter Education course.
Where’s the problem?
And Reckless Endangerment already covers your hypothetical (probably more laws as well). Why the need for another law?
Fabius Maximus says:
April 8, 2013 at 9:37 pm
It stops my friend Billy setting up target practice in his back yard and forgetting that his bullets don’t stop at his property line and the kids next door are actually in the line of fire.
#72 Joyce
It removes the presumption of intelligence from the gun owner. Reckless endangerment is very hard to prove. There is a case in FL at the moment where the owner built a berm at their property line to catch strays. Neighbor is still picking rounds out of her garden. The cops say they are powerless as the only ordinance he is breaking is the noise ordinance when he has his buddies round in the evening for beers and practice.
1) I’m glad we have you and the govt to tell us dumb folk what’s best. While you’re in the hypothetical mood, can you not think of one single scenario in which a person could fire a weapon and be completely fine with it? (take away self-defense and all the other listed exceptions in Brian’s ordinace) Can you not name one?
2) As to your Florida story, bullsh-t. The cops are not powerless. The cops arrest and prosecutors charge peopel with random things all day everyday. They could easily bring the charge of reckless endangerment, deny him a jury trial, and force him to plea … it’s the american (just-us) system’s best play.
And while you’re describing some story in Florida with no cite, re-read the story I posted @58. Where is that guy’s presumption of innocence?
Hey Brian,
To be a stickler. Actually, you’re not allowed to bear arms. Not in NJ. No one is allowed to carry long guns and no one is allowed to open or concealed carry a handgun without a permit… which they will never issue. Only retired police get them. Now obviously there is an exception to this rule for active police and other ‘friends’ of the govt.
Brian says:
April 8, 2013 at 9:01 pm
Exception for cops. You can bear your arms…..you just can’t use them.
#75
1) outside of dispatching a sick animal, I can’t think of any need. And in that case, I can call the town to do it for me.
2) With your Auburn case, outside the immediate illegal possession, for the most cases a bear will not attack unless provoked.
I will try and find the FL case. In a quick search I did come across this. Not related, but worth sharing for the comic factor. God Bless Law Enforcement.
http://www.wcyb.com/news/watercooler/Loud-music-complaints-lead-to-arrest-of-54-year-old-woman/-/14590768/15240346/-/format/feed/-/9g6k6c/-/index.html
1) That’s pathetic, that you’re so narrow minded. And because you have no need, everyone else must live by those rules.
2) I’m not very familiar with the (unconstitutional) laws of the area, but do you have any problem at all with the ‘possession of a shotgun’ being a crime?
This guy legally possessed a firearm in NJ and was still arrested and charged (and to tie back to another post way back today, his bail was set at $75,000).
http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/14/attorney-draconian-gun-laws-put-nj-man-in-prison-for-35-days-after-police-search-home-without-a-warrant/2/
Cops are so powerless… jeez they can’t get a break.
Re [77];
That will go over great in the ER… “But Fabius said ‘most cases a bear will not attack unless provoked.’ “
I’d like to smear gluteus with peanut butter and tie him to a tree in my backyard. I’m pretty sure a bear will attack him.
#78 Joyce
1) Ok you give me an example of discharging a firearm on you property that should be legal.
2) Do you really want to go into legal gun shootings.
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/21890214/shot-fired-into-neighboring-apartment-while-man-cleaning-gun
What’s the problem? Half the lowlifes in Paterson and Camden are packing heat 24/7.
Only degenerate societies seek to disarm their citizens.
81
The point to that story is … what? It gives very little detail into the reasoning why no charge. It just says Permit = no charge. If that’s the law, it’s stupid. If there’s more to it, let’s hear it?
———————————
The Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). The survey estimated 1.5 million Defensive Gun Uses (DGU’s) annually.
(http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/165476.pdf)
On top of that, here’s a separate question: If overall violent crime went up but gun related crime went down, is that an acceptable trade-off to you?
national institute of justice, not DoJ
#84 Joyce
That link doesn’t work, but you are putting up a bad argument. If violent crime goes up do I want to be mugged with a gun knife or fist. Still getting mugged but my survival chances are better with the latter two.
Where are you on todays use of probable cause search. http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2013/04/vineland_man_faces_drug_gun_ch.html
link:
http://www.nij.gov/pubs-sum/165476.htm
I love how you never answer a question. Your boy Piers loves to selectively quote numbers… the violent crime rate is higher in the UK and the gun death rate is higher in the US… pick one.
“but my survival chances are better with the latter two”
Once again, your logic is horsesh-t. A large man vs a small woman, they both have fists, they both have knives, they both have guns… which scenario does the woman have the best chance in?
Where am I… unfortunately, it looks like the (every bad adjective in the book) drug war played a large role in their probable cause.
joyce (87)-
Unfortunately, you are arguing with someone who comes from a society that disintegrated sooner than ours.
#87 Joyce
Now you’re reaching, not wining the argument so you heading for the fallacy of violent crime vs. gun crime. “Why can’t I have a reduction in both? If I reduce gun crime, I reduce violent crime”
Big man vs. little lady. I said “me” and I’m not a little lady. Gun I have little chance, the other two, if I go down, the other side will feel it on the way down.
#88 joyce,
If he didn’t discharge a loaded weapon while “cleaning”, they don’t get called. This argument boils down to a few points.
1) 2nd amendment. State right vis individual right.
2) There are a lot of people out there that honestly should not hold a gun. While I don’t have a problem with Darwinian selection, when they start taking out others I have an issue.
3) There are a lot illegal guns in bad peoples hands. It would be nice if we could we just shut down the factories that are producing these illegal guns, but every gun comes out of a factory legally.
Once again, not answering the question. My first attempt was a hypothetical which you ignored. Are only you allowed to pose hypotheticals? My second attempt was UK vs US. You ignored again.
The reason why you can’t have a reduction in both is because your solution to gun crime is (to try) to remove them from non-govt hands. And if not that in full, to limit their lawful use. Go ahead, I dare you to deny that’s your solution. Take NJ for example, no one is allowed to carry a gun. If it leaves you home, it must be unloaded and in pieces in your trunk. And some towns (most?), using them is against the law. I know I know self defense is lawful… yeah, if your survive your flogging from the justice system. Did those laws prevent the criminals from obtaining, carrying, and using them?
‘I said “me” ‘
That’s right. Another example of you advocating for rules that apply to everyone without everyone’s best interest in mind. Oh you may arrogantly think it’s best for them, why… cause you and the govt is so gosh darn smart.
Oh and the third time you ignore the question is the lady vs man, fists-knife-gun question.
Strike 3
You didn’t ask about him firing his gun and the rest. You asked about probable cause. The police had more than enough info from the person who called to go upstairs and talk with him while they continue their investigation. They did not have enough to forcibly enter his home. That is until they said they saw drugs.
Fabius Maximus says:
April 9, 2013 at 12:06 am
#88 joyce,
If he didn’t discharge a loaded weapon while “cleaning”, they don’t get called. This argument boils down to a few points.
I repeat, Strike 3. (more like 5 or 6)
goodnight
Joyce
While US vs UK will never work.
Personal note (most private is the 1.5Mill shotguns, the rest for the most part is law enforcement)
UK
number of privately owned guns 4million,
number of gun deaths in 2010 155
Rate of All Gun Deaths per 100,000 People 0.25%
US
number of privately owned guns 270 Million
number of gun deaths in 2010 32,163
Rate of All Gun Deaths per 100,000 People 10.3
#92
So where exactly are these illegal guns coming from?
I like this site http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada
number of privately owned guns 10 Million
number of gun deaths in 2010 610
Rate of All Gun Deaths per 100,000 People 1.8
Canada that is a rough place to live
Offered without comment.
http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Woman-Reportedly-Shot-by-her-2-Year-Old–202025261.html
Thanks for the the valuable suggestions…keep writing on this topic. grim I hope you keep writing more blogs like this one. Another good post grim.