October Case Shiller

From Bloomberg:

Home Prices in U.S. Decrease More Than Forecast

Home prices dropped more than forecast in October, a sign housing will remain a weak link as the U.S. recovery accelerates into the new year.

The S&P/Case-Shiller index of property values fell 0.8 percent from October 2009, the biggest year-over-year decline since December 2009, the group said today in New York. The decrease exceeded the 0.2 percent drop projected by the median forecast of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.

A wave of foreclosures waiting to reach the market means home prices will remain under pressure in 2011, representing a risk to household finances. Federal Reserve policy makers this month said “depressed” housing and high unemployment remained constraints on consumer spending, reasons why they reiterated a plan to expand record monetary stimulus.

“We’ll remain in negative territory for several more months,” said Dean Maki, chief U.S. economist at Barclays Capital Inc. in New York, who forecast a year-on-year drop of 1.3 percent. “The housing market does remain weak and none of the recent data suggest a substantial pickup.”

From Reuters:

October home prices down for 4th straight month

U.S. single-family home prices fell for a fourth straight month in October pressured by a supply glut, home foreclosures and high unemployment, data from a closely watched survey showed on Tuesday.

The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller composite index of 20 metropolitan areas declined 1.0 percent in October from September on a seasonally adjusted basis, a much steeper drop than the 0.6 percent fall expected by economists.

The decline built on a revised decrease of 1.0 percent in September and took prices down 0.8 percent from year-ago levels. It was the first year-on-year drop in the index since January.

The housing market has been struggling since home buyer tax credits expired earlier this year. To take advantage of the tax credits, buyers had to sign purchase contracts by April 30.

“The (housing) double dip is almost here, as six cities set new lows for the period since 2006 peaks. There is no good news in October’s report,” said David Blitzer, chairman of the index committee at S&P.

Eighteen of the 20 cities showed weaker year-on-year readings in October and all 20 cities showed monthly price declines.

This entry was posted in Economics, National Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

151 Responses to October Case Shiller

  1. grim says:

    This storm was bad news for all the lenders who didn’t have time to winterize.

  2. grim says:

    From Inman News:

    Foreclosure backlog grows again in November

    The robo-signing controversy continues to slow the progress of homes through the foreclosure process and into lenders’ real estate owned inventories, the latest numbers from mortgage-data aggregator Lender Processing Services show.

    A record 2.16 million first-lien mortgages were in some stage of the foreclosure process at the end of November, LPS said — the fifth consecutive monthly increase.

    The backlog is growing in part because delinquent borrowers are still being referred for foreclosure, but the sale of foreclosure properties continued to decline, LPS said.

    LPS counted 261,153 foreclosure starts in November, about the same number in October and an 18.5 percent increase from a year ago. LPS said foreclosure sales and loans moving into REO inventories were down, but did not provide any figures.

    Some 4.77 million homeowners were behind on their payments at the end of November, LPS estimated, down nearly 4 percent from October and more than 20 percent from a peak for the year of 6 million in January.

    The number of homeowners who’d missed one payment dropped nearly 5 percent from October to November, to 1.83 million, reversing three months of growth in that forward-looking statistic. The number of 30-day delinquent loans was down 9 percent from January.

    Another 771,460 first-lien loans were 60 days delinquent, a decrease of nearly 3 percent from October and 17 percent from January.

    Some 2.16 million homeowners were behind on their payments by 90 days or more, down 3 percent from October and 29 percent from January.

  3. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Nonprofits getting first shot at bank foreclosures

    Francisco and Pam Cruz maneuvered around boxes of new flooring and open cans of paint as they surveyed the foreclosed Phoenix house they would soon call their own.

    This house wasn’t typical of the thousands in foreclosure-battered Arizona that banks have auctioned for cheap — often to investors who make just enough repairs to satisfy a potential renter.

    The Cruzes will become first-time homeowners, helped by one of many nonprofit groups that can snag foreclosures at a discount — and sometimes for free — before banks make them available to speculators.

    It’s a glimmer of hope for struggling neighborhoods that are watching banks foreclose on a record number of homes this year.

    In the Cruzes’ case, Rebuilding Together obtained the home for free from JPMorgan Chase & Co., the bank that foreclosed on its previous owner. Honeywell International Inc. provided the labor to renovate it and $25,000 cash for the materials.

    In a market hot with speculators snapping up cheap foreclosures, Rebuilding Together’s program is one of many that give a leg up to nonprofits and redevelopment agencies trying to stabilize neighborhoods dotted with vacant houses.

    Yet Jim O’Donnell, JPMorgan Chase & Co.’s community revitalization program manager, acknowledges that each home being offered to a community group also has a story about someone who lost it to the bank.

    “It’s an unfortunate situation, and that’s why we really take a conscious effort to work with our partners to ensure that we can have some good stories at the end of this unfortunate equation,” O’Donnell said. “Through these programs, we put what I call this protective umbrella over these affordable homes so that first-come first-served nonprofits can get access to them to ensure they get turned back into the hands of the community.”

  4. freedy says:

    leave to chase.concerned for the little guy.

  5. serenity now says:

    “The index was down 29 percent in September from its July 2006 peak.”
    Close to a bottom?

  6. Confused In NJ says:

    1.grim says:
    December 28, 2010 at 6:00 am
    This storm was bad news for all the lenders who didn’t have time to winterize.

    I’ve got one on my street that’s molded from busted pipes last year.

  7. Mike says:

    Grim Number 3 Yes that is a nice story but keep in mind the employees of nonprofit organizations get a paycheck too which could mean high salaries for the staff and enormous administrative cost.

  8. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Wag, Kettle/Cat & myself will be GTG at Mohawk House 7 pm Sparta NJ tomorrow the 29th, all welcome.
    Take a ride to the hinterland , our roads are clear & ice free. The road crews are used to it (snows about every week by me), plus we did not get hit as hard as coastal areas about 8 in.

  9. chicagofinance says:

    But, he quipped, any weight-loss progress was like “throwing a couple of deck chairs off the Titanic.”

    Chris: fat chance!

    Last Updated: 5:46 AM, December 28, 2010

    Posted: 12:00 AM, December 28, 2010

    The proof is in the pudding.

    New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie admitted yesterday that he doesn’t make New Year’s resolutions to lose weight anymore because he never sticks to them.

    The 48-year-old rising star in the Republican Party said that he has resolved to shed the extra baggage about 35 times in his life but has only had “varying degrees of success.”

    Instead, Christie has found a new approach to New Year’s resolutions.

    He said he and his wife, Mary Pat, have started making resolutions to each other.

    The couple, who have been married for more than 20 years, will sit down on Dec. 31 and plan what they want to accomplish in 2011, Christie said.

    He added that they’ll later compare notes “to see how well we do.”

    Christie, who was sworn in as New Jersey’s governor last January after defeating incumbent Jon Corzine, doesn’t shy away from cracking jokes about his weight.

    When he appeared on Don Imus as a candidate in 2009, he told the shock jock he had lost about 35 pounds and now only weighs “550 pounds.”

    Exaggerations about his weight aside, Christie said his personal success came after starting a new diet and exercise regime with a personal trainer.

    But, he quipped, any weight-loss progress was like “throwing a couple of deck chairs off the Titanic.”

    “I’ve tried every other crazy method in the world, but you just lose weight and you gain it back,” he told Imus.

    Christie, who was nicknamed “Big Boy” by former President George W. Bush when he was the US attorney in Newark, tries to work out three times a week, a friend told The Post.

    “He knows it’s unhealthy, and he’s trying,” the pal said in an October profile of Christie.

    The pounds are also a political issue for Christie.

    When running against Corzine in 2009, Christie had to endure a commercial from his opponent that used the tongue-in-cheek tag line “throwing his weight around” to suggest Christie used improper influence in avoiding traffic tickets.

    Christie responded by calling the ads “stupid” and “silly,” and noted that he had become “numb” to fat jokes.


  10. chicagofinance says:

    Drunken driver arrests himself

    Branchburg, NJ — A 76-year-old man called 911 to report a drunken driver — himself.

    According to the Tewksbury Parakeet Liner, local police said Lamar Asperger called the emergency number around 8:30 Christmas morning. Officers found the man sitting in the driver’s seat of a running vehicle.

    Police say Asperger told officers that he called 911 because he thought he was too drunk to drive. A test showed his blood-alcohol level was nearly three times the legal limit.

  11. chicagofinance says:

    Who’s On First…..No…Hu’s on Second….

    Hu traded to Mets
    Hu’s not on first for the Mets, but he can play second.

    Chin-lung Hu, a 26-year-old infielder, was acquired by the team yesterday in a deal that sent minor league pitcher Michael Antonini to the Dodgers.

    Hu has played 96 games over parts of four major league seasons and is a career .191 hitter. Last season, he appeared in 14 games at shortstop for the Dodgers and batted .130 with no homers and one RBI.

    Antonini, a 25-year-old lefty, split time last season between Double-A Binghamton and Triple-A Buffalo. He was 2-3 with a 5.11 ERA in six starts for Buffalo.

    Hu’s addition gives the Mets 39 players on the 40-man roster.

  12. sn (5)-

    Not even close. Wait until this new Clowngress either reins in or blows up Phony and Fraudy. Rates going much higher (we’ve seen the beginnings of this already), qualification standards ratcheted up another notch or two.

    The pain will be unbearable. No one will be spared. No one.

  13. chi (12)-

    If you find me sitting in a running vehicle, chances are good there will be a hose running from the exhaust into the car.

    “Officers found the man sitting in the driver’s seat of a running vehicle.”

  14. Mikeinwaiting says:

    October 2010 October/September September/August
    Metropolitan Area Level Change (%) Change (%) 1-Year Change (%)
    Atlanta 103.30 -2.9% -2.3% -6.2%
    Boston 154.35 -1.2% -1.3% -0.2%
    Charlotte 114.06 -1.1% -1.0% -4.2%
    Chicago 122.28 -2.0% -1.5% -6.5%
    Cleveland 102.20 -1.5% -3.0% -2.6%
    Dallas 116.16 -1.1% -1.6% -3.1%
    Denver 126.59 -0.6% -1.0% -1.8%
    Detroit 68.86 -2.5% -1.3% -5.5%
    Las Vegas 100.97 -0.2% 0.1% -3.6%
    Los Angeles 174.05 -0.7% -0.1% 3.3%
    Miami 144.03 -1.1% -1.2% -3.4%
    Minneapolis 121.30 -1.9% -2.1% -2.8%
    New York 171.50 -1.6% -0.5% -1.7%
    Phoenix 105.97 -1.1% -1.5% -4.3%
    Portland 142.16 -1.5% -1.9% -5.2%
    San Diego 159.99 -1.5% -1.0% 3.0%
    San Francisco 138.84 -1.9% -0.9% 2.2%
    Seattle 143.13 -1.3% -0.6% -4.1%
    Tampa 135.21 -0.9% -0.8% -3.6%
    Washington 186.67 -0.2% -0.1% 3.7%
    Composite-10 159.03 -1.2% -0.6% 0.2%
    Composite-20 145.32 -1.3% -0.8% -0.8%
    Source: Standard & Poor’s and Fiserv
    Data through October 2010

  15. Mikeinwaiting says:


    “The double-dip is almost here, as six cities set new lows for the period since the 2006 peaks. There is no
    good news in October’s report. Home prices across the country continue to fall.” says David M. Blitzer,
    Chairman of the Index Committee at Standard & Poor’s. “The trends we have seen over the past few
    months have not changed. The tax incentives are over and the national economy remained lackluster in
    October, the month covered by these data. Existing homes sales and housing starts have been reported for
    both October and November, and neither is giving any sense of optimism. On a year-over-year basis,
    sales are down more than 25% and the months’ supply of unsold homes is about 50% above where it was
    during the same months of last year. Housing starts are still hovering near 30-year lows. While
    delinquency rates might have seen some recent improvement, it is only on a relative basis. They are still
    well above their historic averages, in both the prime and sub-prime markets.
    “Looking at the monthly statistics, all 20 MSAs and both Composites were down in October over
    September. While not always consecutive months, twelve of the MSAs and both composites have posted
    at least six months of decline since the beginning of 2010. In addition 15 MSAs and both composites
    have posted three consecutive months of decline with October’s report; a further sign that the few months
    of positive print earlier this spring were only a temporary boost. The seasonally adjusted data tell largely
    the same story.”

  16. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Nothing to see here, move on into oblivion.

  17. freedy says:

    if everything is so bad, why are retail sales so strong?

  18. Essex says:

    10. Guy might think he’s numb, but the real issue is he is a cardiac candidate. Big time. Couldn’t happen to a nicer human.

  19. Mikeinwaiting says:

    freedy, that is the million dollar question. Some will say freeloaders not paying their mortgage, but I don’t buy it. Wish I had the answer.

  20. Essex says:

    I don’t like fatties and I hate bullies. The only thing I hate more are Jersey “real” housewives and interweb tough guys.

  21. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Essex 19, yes hopefully he will drop dead & all the public employee parasites can continue business as usual.

  22. Essex says:

    BTW, all this mossberg talk. I know the guy. I went out on the maiden voyage of the ol man’s 150′ Viking in St. Pete way back when. Nice family!

  23. Essex says:

    22. Mike you are delusional.

  24. What’s really depressing is the knowledge that Christie has pulled his punches at almost every crucial decision point regarding the gubmint parasites…yet his half-measures are seen by the enemy as cruel and draconian and seen by many in the private sector as brave and groundbreaking.

    What REALLY needs to be done is so far beyond what Christie is doing- or will do- that no one can either stomach or comprehend it in full. When it comes, either by force or necessity, blood will be shed.

  25. Essex says:

    Let’s be clear: many states failed to fully fund their state employee pension fund obligations, being permitted to run a substantial contribution deficit on the promise the contribution deficit would be remedied in future years. Now these same states want retirees to take a substantial reduction in pension benefits and to loot their state pension funds to balance their state budgets which are in deficit due to fiscal mismanagement. State legislatures stole the money on the front end and now are looking to steal the money on the back end. It is theft, pure and simple.

  26. I suppose it will go better for us here than in IL or CA. It’s going to get extremely violent in both those places.

  27. Libtard in Cancun says:



  28. Essex says:

    Either you guys are just dumb, bored, or gullible:

    “Contrary to what Christie would have Americans believe, public employee pensions are not the problem. The average pension for an AFSCME member is just $19,000, and eighty percent of this comes from investment returns and contributions by the employees themselves. The challenge can be met if state and local governments, began contributing just 1.5 percent more of their budgets toward their pension funds in the years ahead.”

  29. Essex says:

    25. The only blood you have ever seen is in your overwrought stool.

  30. Essex says:

    GOP plan: Push states to declare bankruptcy and smash unions. Republicans are plotting to change the bankruptcy laws to allow states to file bankruptcy. Once a state defaults on its obligations and files bankruptcy, the state could use the United Airlines bankruptcy precedent (Judge Eugene Wedoff approved the airline management’s request to terminate four pension plans—for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and other ground service workers. The $9.8 billion pension plan default was the largest in U.S. history) to terminate the state employee pension plans altogether.

    The federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation would have to take over the state employee pension funds, but that agency itself is barely solvent due to the tidal wave of corporate pension fund defaults during the Great Recession. The federal government essentially would bail out state pension funds, but under Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation regulations, benefits are substantially limited. Beneficiaries will take a severe haircut.

    This is important because many state employees do not pay into social security but pay only into the state employee pension plan. Retirees in this position would be forced to live on subsistence or in poverty through no fault of their own, but because of fiscal mismanagement by state legislatures. Promises made are supposed to be promises kept: it is both a contractual and a fiduciary obligation with a pension fund. But states could be permitted to renege on these promises if permitted to file bankruptcy.

  31. sx (26)-

    The original (and unsustainable) pension fund obligations were essentially bribes paid to gubmint parasite unions in return for votes. The intervening years have just been a shell game of frauds and non-payments, perpetrated by the political class in order to continue receiving votes from this massive bloc of parasites.

    Now, the bill has come due for the political class, and there is no money to pay it and no more sources of revenue to tap. The jig is up. The whole system began as a Ponzi and will crumble under its own weight of obligation without means of payment.

  32. Essex says:

    32. Actually they were just ways of attracted “anyone” to work in the public sector. Remember when the economy was hot and signing bonuses were the norm? Remember bidding wars? All of this was just a way to ensure someone would teach, be a cop, or whatever. Now these jobs are actually considered ‘good’ jobs by the masses that passed on them when times were better. Go figure.

  33. Essex says:

    I don’t doubt that patronage played a part in $$$ negotiations, but the whole outcome is the result of ‘theft’ and mismanagement. With no one really accountable. Welcome to America 2010.

  34. It’s amazing how many rank-and-file cops, firemen and teachers understand how fraudulent and unsustainable the current pension/bennie system is. Many are ready and willing to restructure benefits more in line with current private sector benefits. It doesn’t take a PhD to understand what can (and will) happen in the event of cascading municipal BKs. Common sense dictates that securing something now is way better than the guarantee of getting nothing in the end.

    Of course, the leadership of the parasite unions cannot retain power should they entertain any negotiation. That’s why they don’t, and that’s the tell of where their interests truly lie.

  35. sx (33)-

    Even if you cut the politics out of the pension/bennie argument, the good times are over. Absent the political patronage, the pension/bennies have to be cut simply to bring them in line with the private sector.

    “Promised”- in the public sector- is only as good as the tax base backing that promise.

    And the tax base in NJ ain’t looking so great right now.

  36. xroads says:

    If pension funds weren’t raided would they be solvent and able to provide retirees with the benefits promised? It seems to me states saw how the Fed and private companies for that matter were abusing SS and pensions and decided to get in on the game. My company still has a pension fund ( I don’t know if it will be there when I retire) but so far nobody has used it for personal gain. we will see

  37. xroads (37)-

    If we lived in a world of skittles and fairy dust, Ponzi schemes could be operated in perpetuity.

    These public union deals were set up to be raided…just as all mechanisms of gubmint finance more resemble the workings of organized crime than the doing of the public’s business.

  38. All was revealed when Whitman borrowed vs. public pensions to “balance” the budget…and nobody lifted a finger to stop that daylight bank robbery.

    Rotten to the core. Every filthy dollar.

  39. xroads says:

    “If we lived in a world of skittles and fairy dust, Ponzi schemes could be operated in perpetuity.”

    Its amazing how most think we do since there is such shock and awe on the publics part when they find out pensions are bankrupt… I always felt the average person me included is uninformed when pulling the lever on election day. As my wife says the pols know us and play us well.

  40. xroads says:

    39 “All was revealed when Whitman borrowed vs. public pensions to “balance” the budget…and nobody lifted a finger to stop that daylight bank robbery.”

    what did Whitman use the money on?

  41. Essex says:

    Lamar we live in a world of $$$$ baby.

  42. xroads (41)-

    Hookers and blow?

  43. What could be wrong with borrowing today against a benefit pool that will yield a projected 26% annual return? Orin Kramer will keep buying the dips on LEH and MER, and everything will be just fine in the end.

    The above is the kind of thinking in which seemingly rational and ethical people engaged. All I’m saying is that they certainly weren’t rational…and the ethical part is pretty debatable, too.

  44. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #41..I’ll take this one since I was paying attention at the time….fearing that the then overfunded pension fund would be raided to pay for speciual interest projects, she stopped contributions and cut the State Income tax by 30%. Was it the right thing to do….who knows..but we have had a 30% tax cut for 15 years or so. I guess the answer is to up the state income tax back to those levels to help cover the pensions.

  45. d2b says:

    41- Xroads:
    I’ve contended for a while that much of that money went right back into employee salaries and supported raises that the state could not afford. That means that when these employees retire they are getting inflated pensions from a system that is missing money. Nobody cares because the state is back-stopping everything.

    Our family business has hired three govt retirees over the years that needed to make up their 40 quarters of coverage to be eligible for Social Security. They were all friends of family that were willing to work for minimum wage because they were close, but missing just a few.

  46. xroads says:

    “Hookers and blow?”
    I hope the taxpayers got some!

  47. xroads says:

    45 & 46
    This is where uninformed comes in everybody loves to blame Whitman but the benefit has been going on for 15 years? Nobody wanted to stop it until it was to late WTF? I agree that it went back into pay raises but the arbitration process didn’t help either it didn’t seem like you could lose as a union in arbitration.

  48. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    Income tax compare…..for $150,000 income, NYC residents pay about $8,000 a year more than NJ residents in income tax….


    see page 21

  49. Shore Guy says:

    And NJ residents more than make up for that in commuting costs.

  50. Shore Guy says:

    “the arbitration process didn’t help either it didn’t seem like you could lose as a union in arbitration.”

    Under the interet arbitration law (for police and firefighters) ability to pay has been of little importance wheras settlements in other towns — comparability data — has been a major consideration. Tuus, if the average settlement in nearby towns was 7%, it was unlikely — hell freezing over unlikely — that an interest arbitrator would award less than the average pay increase in other local towns.

  51. Xroads says:

    It was explained to me that an abritrator had a choice between what the town offered and what the union wanted example between %0(town) or %7(union). Am I confusing the union with a average of nearby towns?

  52. relo says:

    149: NJ is a gross income state, so while this may be true you’re probably talking about taxable income on the respective returns vs. overall economic income.

  53. Outofstater says:

    There is no money. The people are broke, the municipalities are broke, the states are broke and the federal government is broke. There is no money. There is only debt. All of the moves on the part of the Fed and the feds and the states and the towns are meant to prolong the inevitable as long as possible, hoping that the country will have a deus ex machina moment and all will be well again. There will be no moment and there is no money. Pension benefits will not be paid as promised. Health benefits will not be paid as promised. The vast array of goods we see on store shelves will be a thing of the past. Macy’s will look more like WalMart. The best I am hoping for is a gradual diminution in our standard of living while avoiding civil unrest. Somebody cheer me up here! Happy New Year.

  54. Yikes says:

    Ariens Snow Blower

    Best $800 I spent last year. I’ve now used it 4 times since the purchase.

  55. whyoung says:

    #18: “if everything is so bad, why are retail sales so strong?”

    I think it’s “Frugal Fatigue” – people had deferred a lot of purchases and got to the point they needed some replacement items (clothing, etc.) and wanted treats (new cheap flat screens, etc.) From what I read a lot more cash and less credit was used this holiday season.

    Also, gross sales don’t necessarily equal profits, if margins are thin enough and markdowns need to be taken…

  56. Wag says:

    I just made the colossal mistake of looking at the final pay statement of the year.
    Fcuking taxes… unreal… just, unreal.

  57. Crazyupload says:

    I enjoyed to find this article. I like your point of view. Thanks a lot. Cheers

  58. Shore Guy says:

    Read the interest arb awards for yourself:


    A party game for all taxpayers.

  59. Shore Guy says:


    I second your snowblower recomenation. I have used an Ariens for several years.

  60. Juice Box@yahoo.com says:

    Anyone see the Meredith Whitney interview last week?

    Wave of Muni Defaults to Spur Layoffs, Social Unrest: Whitney

    A wave of defaults by state and local governments in the coming months will spark a selloff in the municipal bond market, hurting US economic growth and stocks and causing social unrest as governments are forced to lay off workers and cut back on services, well known financial analyst Meredith Whitney told CNBC Tuesday.


    I am angling to work remotely from a nice low/no income tax state. My company has a presence in nearly every state, would be nice to save 6.37% out of every paycheck instead of paying the parasites of NJ.

  61. Graydon M. Ellery, III says:

    31 essex, “GOP plan: Push states to declare bankruptcy and smash unions. Republicans are plotting to change the bankruptcy laws to allow states to file bankruptcy”

    Now we are talking. I hope you are right. This “plotting” would be the only way forward in a real world – your fantasy world is of course different thing, as golden unicorn brings in the money.

    Allowing states to declare bankruptcy (they don’t even have to actually run out of money), voiding those unsustainable pension and benefit contracts and destroying the power of public sector unions, is the solution that can still save this country. Congress can change laws and it can also limit or prevent the exposure of Government pension guarantee funds.

    If blue states have run unsustainable policies, let them go bankcrupt. Red states should not be punished.

    You are no doubt too dumb to understand this, but anybody with IQ approaching or exceeding normal levels should be capable of understanding the current unsustainable situation.

  62. Shore Guy says:

    “I just made the colossal mistake of looking at the final pay statement of the year.
    Fcuking taxes… unreal… just, unreal.”

    Yup! Mrs. Shore and I are each self employed so we do the quarterly tax shuffle and, thus, we feel the hit of taxes throughout the year. The fact that we pay taxes in about 20 states and a number of foreign nations does not help either. If the feds were good stewards of the six-fugures we send them each year, I would feel better about things.

  63. Wag says:

    Shore (64) – That point at which it becomes more palatable to walk away from the productive class and move to the non productive is rapidly approaching. Looking at what the taxes are being spent on is just a demoralizing exercise in futility. That, is what the current adminstrations best be on the lookout for. Once that line is crossed, there is no going back.

  64. NJSerf says:

    (64)”If the feds were good stewards of the six-fugures we send them each year, I would feel better about things.”

    If you’re sending the feds six-figures every year, I think you should be grateful to the feds for maintaining a government and system that allows you to do so.

    The fact that you’re paying such high taxes is indicative of a high income. Certainly something to be proud of. Ask yourself this question: “Could you make what you’re making, doing what you’re doing in another country?” If the answer is no, then the taxes you’re paying are probably too low.

  65. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Nice case shiller numbers prompting double dip possibility. Will make for some nice charts when I get a chance to update. Im guessing ny metro hit fresh lows since 06. And the jump in mortgage rates pretty much gurantees lower prices through the next four case shiller releases. And all four months will be blamed on snowmaggedon by nar and cnbc.

  66. grim says:

    Nobody shovels out foreclosures.

    If this doesn’t melt soon, existing foreclosures won’t get showings. No showings, no sales. No sales, bigger backlog.

  67. relo says:

    67: And what, pray tell, would you have the additional revenue go towards?

    If the answer is no, then the taxes you’re paying are probably too low.

  68. relo says:


    Steve Wynn : Citizen of Monaco.

  69. serf (67)-

    Funny. I thought people in NJ succeeded in spite of the gubmint, not because of it.

    The gubmint does nothing, produces nothing and takes for the purpose of enslaving the population to perpetuate itself.

  70. sas3 says:


    “This “plotting” [declaring bankruptcy] would be the only way forward in a real world – your fantasy world is of course different thing, as golden unicorn brings in the money.”

    If you think this option is a good one for individual states, would you advocate it as a good option for the union as a whole?

    “If blue states have run unsustainable policies, let them go bankcrupt. Red states should not be punished.”

    Red states overall get more from feds than what they contribute in fed taxes.

  71. grim (69)-

    If the pipes have already blown, why waste the energy shoveling out?

    Wait for spring and bulldoze the mf’ers.

  72. NJSerf says:

    (70) The whole point being, someone sending six figure checks to the federal government should be one of the last people griping about how the money is managed. Chances are, they get more then their money’s worth from the government.

    (72) In most cases I’d agree with you. However, its kind of hard to get to work with 12-16 inches of snow on the road.

  73. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [31] SX

    Why would the PBGC be forced to pick up the state government pensions?

    [71] Relo

    Saw that. Was curious why it was made public until I read this:


    Ordinarily, these people don’t want this sort of thing publicized. The whale that surfaces gets harpooned.

  74. sminth says:

    Really Nice and Interesting Blog Post! Thanks,revenue forecasting software.

  75. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [73] sas3

    “Red states overall get more from feds than what they contribute in fed taxes.”

    Thats an overly simplistic statement, and a misleading statistic. In fact, its right up there with the oft-quoted, and thoroughly bogus, statement that the Clinton tax hikes resulted in economic prosperity.

    There are three things that result in that statistic, and they are in order of importance: (1) Red states are generally a lot less populous than blue states, (2) Red states tend to have more military installations, and (3) Red States have more federal lands. When you combine just these three factors, you can see how spending in, say Wyoming, outweighs NY on a per capita basis, but the money isn’t really winding up in the hands of all the citizens.

    “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics” Mark Twain

    “Show me a statistician and I’ll show you a liar” Nom Deplume

  76. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [73] sas3

    I should have noted that, where I have heard that statement made, the figures were on a per capita basis. I should have made that clear.

  77. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [67] serf

    “If you’re sending the feds six-figures every year, I think you should be grateful to the feds for maintaining a government and system that allows you to do so.”

    That is a justification for taxation, and a legitimate one. But how do you justify progressive taxation? What extra benefits do the Shores get from the gov. that the rest of us don’t that justify them being taxed more heavily?

    I have studied tax policy, and hang out with policy wonks. Thus far, none have been able to refute my assertion that, when you reduce every argument for progressive taxation to its irreducible core, the sole justification for progressive taxation is that wealthier folks have the money and don’t need it as much as the majority population, so the majority should be permitted to take it. This is the “marginal utility” theory.

    If you have a [serious] justification that doesn’t ultimately reduce to marginal utility (e.g., wealthy people are harder on our school system, or emit more carbon), I am keen to hear it. Really.

  78. Al Mossberg says:

    Im disappointed. No cheerleading for shiny? Has everyone become jaded?

    We just busted through 1400 and 30 resistance levels. Shall I do the honors?

    Anyone else think China has something to do with JP Morgans massive silver short position? Ted Butler thinks so.

  79. Al Mossberg says:

    NY’s Dumbest; NYC sanitation workers destroy a Ford Explorer

    This is your typical public employee. Dumb as a bag of rocks.


  80. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    There is some Pant Up demand out there. Some towns desperately want to declare bankruptcy, but can’t.


    “Only about 600 cities, counties, towns and special taxation districts have filed for bankruptcy (known as Chapter 9 for these sorts of entities) since 1937, said James E. Spiotto, a municipal bankruptcy expert at Chapman & Cutler, a law firm in Chicago, and fewer than 250 in the last three decades. In part, it can be hard — even impossible — to do: about half the states have statutes authorizing such filings, but some of them set limits or require elaborate approval processes. Other states have no specific provision allowing cities to pursue bankruptcy, and at least one, Georgia, bans such moves.

    So far, the financial misery of the past two years has not caused a surge in bankruptcy applications; about 15 municipalities pursued bankruptcy in the last two years. But if revenue forecasts continue as predicted, 2011 might bring a rise in cities faced with such a fate. ”


  81. Anon E. Moose says:

    Grim [1]; Confused [6]:

    Didn’t have time to winterize? The storm arrived December 26th. When were they planning to do it if not by now? I suppose that’s one way to clear bad assets – claim against the property insurance policy.

  82. Anon E. Moose says:

    SX [31];

    I sugest the GM model is more likely than the AA one. The PBGC payments paled in comparison to what those workers were contracted to receive, esp. high-earning pilots, etc. It was also a disgrace that the company was allowed to continue after sheding its malfeasance on what was supposed to be a safety net for complete insolvency.

    Fat chance that the union rank and file get thrown under the bus like the airline pensioneers did. Far more likely the senior position bondholders get their nutz twisted at pennies on the dollar, and the union pension funds get paid from the new entity now freed of its crushing debt burden.

    This assumes, of course, that the Fed simply doesn’t print away the problem.

  83. 30 year realtor says:

    86 – Moose – New inventory or recently vacated inventory rolls in all the time. Vacate the house day before the storm and call in the winterization request for the following day. Storm hits and temps drop low enough, instant indoor pool.

  84. relo (78)-

    What America needs are more gun-brandishing witnesses.

    “The couple was kicked and punched in the parking lot before a gun-brandishing witness told the crowd to step back just before deputies arrived.”

  85. Anon E. Moose says:

    [87] correction;

    sb “public union rank and file…”

  86. From Sovereign Man:

    Simon Black, who for the past few months was frolicking in middle earth has reemerged again, this time from Buenos Aires, and shares a “Best of 2010″ compilation with readers. ”

    Date: December 28, 2010
    Reporting From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

    “As we’re quickly approaching the end of December, I thought it would be appropriate to republish a few letters from earlier this year. 2010 brought substantial growth for this community– our numbers swelled, and I know that many readers probably missed some important letters from earlier days.

    Today I want to repost a letter that I originally sent to you in early January, just after the 2009 holidays. In it, I defined what planting multiple flags is, and why everyone should be thinking about it. As the events of 2010 have unfolded, I think those reasons have only become stronger.”


  87. sas3 says:


    Agree on defense outlays, but there are also farm subsidies, general pork, and subsidized services (postal service, telecom, etc.) — all of them tilt the balance a bit towards more money towards red states. At least the red states cannot claim that they are doing CA, NY, NJ, CT, etc., a favor.

    On defined benefits pensions [declaring bankruptcy so that the pensions can be addressed], what do you think would be a reasonable alternative?

    (a) Assume that the people have contributed their 8% or so into an S&P index and create new 401k accounts with corresponding amounts in there for each person? (b) basically say “no retirement benefits”? (c) cuts in the defined benefits?

    If we contrast this with the administration’s position that contracts specifying bonuses to executives of failed banks are sacrosanct…

    Disclaimer, I have a defined contribution plan…


  88. Juice Box says:

    How is this for an on time flight? Spend 8-10 hours in the air and then another 10 hours on the armac waiting to deplane at JFK.


  89. joyce says:

    way off topic

    why would a bank allow a relative of the mortgagee to be the listing agent for a short sale? isn’t that a conflict of interest, the agent/relative will want to drag things out for as long as possible?

    Does the bank not know? not care?

    the bank is Provident Bank (well that’s the originator in 2007, not sure if the note was sold)

  90. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    Al [83],

    Forget about the manipulators. Look at the huge jump in lease rates, the last few days.

  91. Mr Wantanapolous says:


    I would imagine we may hear about an increase in margins from the CME, depending upon which entity/y’s got the lease rates jammed up their Mossberg.

  92. Al Mossberg says:


    Yeah looks interesting. Historically low still. And the band plays on.

  93. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    Hi-yo running hot

  94. Sterling Grey Matters says:

    Joyce –
    #94 –

    I think you mean “a relative of the mortgagor” – I guess you’re assuming that the listing agent could prolong the short sale process by not submitting offers to the all interested parties, i.e. the note holder, or delay showings and use other stall tactics to prevent the proper marketing of the property. By delaying the sale the mortgagor would get to stay in the house for an extended period of time.

    Two questions – doesn’t the listing agent risk their license if they don’t act in good faith? Also, doesn’t this represent a risk to their reputation for the same reason?

    I am not entirely clear how the short sale process begins but doesn’t the bank first have to agree to permit the sale? And I would think that the homeowner needs to remain current on their mortgage payments so perhaps the notion of prolonging the homeowners stay really requires them to enter into foreclosure anyway.

    I’m sure I’ve got something wrong so who came chime in on this and correct or enlighten me?

  95. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    “Anyone see the Meredith Whitney interview last week?”

    Hahaha, S&P says her numbers don’t add up….too f’g funny. Who would you invest with on that one? S&P doesn’t want their muni shenanigans exposed like their CMBS/RMBS/CDO have been. Not too worry nobody goes to jail for any of this stuff anyway.

  96. Anon E. Moose says:

    SGM [100];

    Two questions – doesn’t the listing agent risk their license if they don’t act in good faith? Also, doesn’t this represent a risk to their reputation for the same reason?

    I was quite literally drinking hot coffee when I read that statement, and used super-human internal fortitude and emotional control to resist spewing it in laughter.

    “Risk their license” presumes that anyone of the guild, or their complaint and often former members occupying relevant positions in the state licensing apparatus, has shown any inclination or quite frankly gives a damn about policing one of their own. If you want to see how the “Realtor Code of Ethics” is used to keep members in line, read a little bit of Christopher Fountain’s “For What Its Worth” blog. Sadly, now neutered by complaints his from fellow real estate guild brethren, one truly needs to be familiar with his ealier blogging to sense the dripping irony in his more recent comments about the state of the real estate market he works in (Greenwich, CT).

    “Risk to their reputation” – What do you think their reputation is now, and what could they possibly do besides “get caught in bed with a live boy or a dead girl” to further tarnish it?

  97. grim says:

    why would a bank allow a relative of the mortgagee to be the listing agent for a short sale?

    Allow? It isn’t their decision to make.

    isn’t that a conflict of interest

    Not if it is disclosed, it’s common to see owners represented by family. It’s something that will show up in the agent remarks on the MLS.

    , the agent/relative will want to drag things out for as long as possible?

    Why even list it if this is the intent? Lender doesn’t need to agree to a short sale. If their prerogative is to foreclose, the fact that the owner might be attempting a short sale doesn’t come into play at all, the lender will not wait.

    I suppose the lender might reject a short sale offer on the grounds of a conflict, but that typically has more to do with who the buyer is (relative of the seller). Focus of the Arms length principle is really between buyer and seller.

  98. grim says:

    I am not entirely clear how the short sale process begins but doesn’t the bank first have to agree to permit the sale?

    No, the lenders are typically not involved in the short sale until the property is under contract.

    And I would think that the homeowner needs to remain current on their mortgage payments.


  99. Anon E. Moose says:

    [103] con’t;

    “dripping sarcasm” would be more appropriate.

  100. Sterling Grey Matters says:

    Moose – #103

    Too funny! I’ll owe you a cup of coffee if it happens again. You certainly aren’t concerned about ruffling some feathers. There is certainly some truth to what you say.

    Well my point was really that there is no conflict-of-interest because there is no benefit to the agent beyond the commission and a quick sale would be in the interest of the homeowner who must remain current on their mortgage throughout the short sale or risk default. But that wouldn’t elicit the type of response that makes posting interesting.

    May I add that we don’t know how tight that family is to begin with (well maybe Joyce does). For all we know the “homeowner” could owe money to the agent and the commission might be the only opportunity to see any payback. Or, to your point Moose, the agent might kick the commission right back to the homeowners out of loyalty to the family, or a debt owed or some other kind of quid pro quo and that I’m sure the bank would have a problem with.

  101. Barbara says:

    That house, the estate, that I bid on a few months ago was taken off the market. 100k over priced, bum roof….I bet that 18 inches of snow on top is making sleep a little difficult to the five greedy grubber “kids.” But I have been doing this for too long, and I know the next move….wait until that white hot spring selling season, meanwhile, cousin Joey is going to come in with some cans of paint…oh, and of course, bump the asking up another 10k for April.

  102. Comrade Nom Deplume aux Neige says:

    Ys, and there are those expenditures that tilt toward blue states, such as various welfare benefits. Other entitlements may or may not skew one way or another, and it isn’t clear if they were included.

    In the end, it is a useless metric because of where money is winding up. For example, money spent on a defense contractor in Texas may benefit Texas to some degree, but also benefits the contractor’s shareholders nationally (internationally?) and if the corporation is HQ’ed elsewhere, the money goes there. For defense, do we say that Newport News is the beneficiary of fed dollars for the cost of running an aircraft carrier based there? VA actually receives little benefit. Finally, things like pork, farm subsidies, etc. are newsworthy but actually quite small relative to defense and entitlements. Toward that end, I’d be curious to know if that metric includes entitlements.

    As for the best option in bankruptcy, you would have to run the #s btwn 1 and 3 (2 is obviously less). But in reality, it is a more complex question, governed by such things as whether the pensions are guaranteed, who (or what) guarantees them, what assets are available, what priority the creditors (pension) has, whether the pensions are property protected by the 5th Amendment (I think not, they are an expectation), and what mechanisms are available. So the question of what should come out of the sausage grinder depends on what goes into it.

    Finally, as for WS bonuses, the big problem, as the administration found out, is that the bonuses or pay packages were contracts. Contracts are enforceable in court, and if Bank A decides to not pay a bonus because Fed told them not to, Bank A and its directors get sued. Further, depending on involvement, the Feds get sued too (look up the history of the Winstar cases where Congress passed FIRREA and abrogated agreements that the banks had with their regulators). Now, we may not like it, but ATEOTD, the execs will collect in court unless there is a convincing (and not ex post facto) public policy argument. Recall when the admin and Congress wanted to go after bonuses–they were able to jawbone a lot of execs and others into givebacks, but some said no. And the law never came to be because of the argument over ex post facto.

    Now, you can pass a law going forward that caps exec salaries. We already have in the tax code some “soft” caps that deny deductibility for pay over a certain amount. We could go further and pass a Roosevelt-era c0n-fisc-atory tax (Roosevelt actually wanted to prohibit salaries over 25K) that takes 100% of the salary over a certain amount (say, 1MM).

    I’d say that, at this point, you would have a lot of shakeups in exec suites, and perhaps a significant number of inversion transactions as well. I submit that this would be bad for economic growth, but at least you’d be pure.

  103. sgm (107)-

    Please ignore the troll. He has more axes to grind than Paul Bunyan.

    A few banks, BAC in particular, are trying to get involved from the very beginning of the short sale process. BAC now sends an appraiser in at the beginning of the listing period to give the seller an idea of the minimum offer they’d accept. BAC is also aggressive in helping owners find an agent and in doing things on the back end like “cash-for-keys” deals.

  104. Comrade Nom Deplume aux Neige says:

    Uh, 110 was for [92] sas3

  105. Don’t take #110 as a sign of BAC’s altruism. They are sitting on a timebomb of rotting Mozilo paper that can destroy the planet 10x over. Better to short sale than to have to FK it all.

  106. Barbara says:

    Merideth Mhitney is a fraud. Her business model genius was a restructuring of Ebay fees that was so convoluted that the sellers could not even understand that they were paying more until the CC bill came in. I won’t even go into Paypal. She’s a good corporate shark but you translate this business style into govt and its a sneaky tax ’em at every turn policy maker. The media and politcos are treating her like an innovator and wise sage. Its redunk.

  107. Sterling Grey Matters says:

    Grim –

    #105 –

    Okay thanks – still much to learn this young padawan does.

  108. hoodafa says:

    @113 Barb – I think you may be confusing Meredith Whitney with Meg Whitman.

  109. Barbara says:

    D’oh! And so….I am……EDIT BUTTON PLEASE!

  110. Anon E. Moose says:

    SGM [107];

    You’ll have to forgive Lamar [110] as yet again being less than well-regulated on his meds. You see, my outspoken clear-sightedeness on the used house sale business model has earned me several death threats from him over my time contributing in the comments here, yet notwithstanding I persist in living.

    I would never underestimate the number of ways a used house sales agent MIGHT undermine all concerned in a transaction to which he is a party to his/her own benefit, or to the benefit of someone else as s/he chooses. Such is the inevitable result when an individual occupies a position of trust without serious transparency or accountability. Your observation that the sellers’ agent may manipulate offers to reduce the apparent value of the property (particularly where the short sale will be without recouse for the deficiency), or drag out the sale process for the benefit of his relative submarine debtowner are only two.

    In certain fields of professional endeavor, where individuals are held personally liable to elevated standards of care for their professional actions, even disclosure of an obvious conflict of interest is often insufficient to cure it.

  111. Sterling Grey Matters says:

    Lamar – #110 + 112 –

    Thanks. So BAC’s action would be the exception not the rule.

    I shouldn’t be surprised about the short sale process. I guess the banks are really saying to the underwater homeowner, go ahead and price it and if you find a sucker, have them sign a contract and then we’ll talk, or not, and maybe we’ll let you sell (not to mention 2nd lien noteholders). And since there is no prior agreement with a bank regarding a short sale then the status of the mortgage is not a mitigating factor. So, when I follow the money – down the rabbit hole and onto the balance sheet – delaying, prolonging or denying a short sale makes some economic sense for the bank from a self-preservation standpoint. The longer you don’t have to recognize loss of value in a property, either through a short sale or foreclosure, the longer you can continue to hope and pray that the economy and the housing market will improve and that the true, current value of the property will actually match the recorded value of the asset on the balance sheet. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    “Chance favors the prepared mind.” – Louis Pasteur

    “Hi, I’m Fred. I have a bank. You have $1,500. Ahhh, I’ll put it here… in my white suit. White Suit, upper right pocket.” – Steve Martin – Philosopher

  112. NJCoast says:


    Are you thinking of Meg Whitman?

  113. NJCoast says:

    Ooops. Never mind.

  114. NJCoast says:

    Clot’s oblivion has arrived at the shore. With three feet of snow and even higher snow drifts most major roads around here still remain unplowed. I made the mistake of trying to drive through Asbury Park today and it was like a third world country. Hundreds of people in the streets flocking to 7-11’s and Wawa’s. Main Street was not plowed and cars were strewn everywhere. NJ Transit train sat on the tracks blocking two cross streets. No police or municipal workers anywhere.
    Finally made my way to Costco in Ocean Township- closed. Thank goodness for Wegmans and their new liquor store. Many aisles were absolutely bare. I don’t know what I’ll feed Thursday (the band) this Thursday at the Starland. Oblivion is going to suck.

  115. moose (117)-

    Nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing you die…other than perhaps killing you myself.

  116. Mikeinwaiting says:

    NJ Coast Blew down to the mall today 60 plus whole way , roads up here clear. A lot less snow. We have been hit that hard before though, by today it would have been ok not great. When your dealing with mountain roads have to do a better job or people die. I’m sure the state allocates more assets (just more stationed in the area) due to nature of the roads.

  117. Sit on it and rotate, you douchebag.

  118. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Clot, Moose. Pistols at 20 paces perhaps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agxBCVxRqh0

    The blood makes it interesting.

  119. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Blood = blond, well just watch.

  120. Hardy har. I just want this douche to either show up at my office…or at least admit here that he’s a toady underling for the banksters (even though it appears pretty obvious he is).

    Someone who will not disclose who he is or what he does in a forum like this one is a troll, pure and simple.

  121. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Just ran across a home I looked at 2 years ago on gsmls sold soon there after 269k, now 239 with third party approval required. You can now have nicer for less, fat chance on a sale. Not to worry it is all getting better.

  122. Essex says:

    Mike up in your area today hit the slopes. Very nice conditions. Hidden Valley, NJ

  123. New in FL says:

    Hey Clot,

    I just scored two bottles of Knob Creek at $28 per… $10 off the regular price at the Winn Dixie liquor store at Aventura. I’m thinking that I should lay in a year’s supply.

    I’m sorry that you’re not here to share it.

  124. Fabius Maximus says:

    The fact that we pay taxes in about 20 states and a number of foreign nations does not help either. If the feds were good stewards of the six-fugures we send them each year, I would feel better about things.

    But how do you justify progressive taxation? What extra benefits do the Shores get from the gov. that the rest of us don’t that justify them being taxed more heavily?

    Yea – a Twofer

    OK where to start.

    Six figure taxation check, is that corporate and sales tax that you pass on to your end consumer through pricing, or do you eat that cost yourself?
    Income tax, if you are not paying yourself in dividends at 15% please see your local Nom. But don’t forget to balance in that six figure check you wrote to your retirement account. Because that Income tax is progressive.

    Paying foreign Income tax, write if off against local gains. But don’t forget to wash it through Joe and Jane Barolo NV, JE, IE and park the proceeds in the Caymans. If you don’t end up with cash in the Caymans and a loss on the US books, again see your local Nom for details. Big Bonus here, you get to write all the expense of setting it up and maintenance as a loss.

    Payroll taxes – Social Security, over $85K , stop paying its regressive. But also remember the golden rule of hiring. An employee is only taken on or maintained if they add to bottom line. If they aren’t adding income to the net, they are gone. (D2B and his minimum income employees is a different discussion). If the O admin gives a break on payroll tax, does that get rolled to the emploteees or the bottom line.

    Estate Tax, how to sell a company without paying for the full realization of the gain. If the George sells the Yankess the day before he dies he pays capital gains on the sale, Hank and Hal get to save 500Mil and reset the cost basis with him croaking!

    Property taxes – One big regressive tax as even the low income renters pick up the cost and the landlords deduct. If it’s a business property, the renters deduct.

    Medicare – The only true proportional tax (if only).

    Nom at the end of the day the US is a regressive tax society and the lower levels carry the burden.

  125. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Essex 130 good choice that is where the locals go, glad you enjoyed it. I hung up my skis years ago to injury prone these days.

  126. cobbler says:

    PBGC as it is set up can’t pay the pensioners of the bankrupt municipal entity as municipalities do not contribute to PBGC trust fund (private sector pension funds chip in). If the problem becomes massive and unmanageable by cutting down the current pay/benefits/staffing levels , either the states will have to pay some reduced amount (unlikely as they don’t have money), or the feds will pay the reduced amount. Generally, govt will want to pay them enough to keep above the Medicaid eligibility (it is a very poorly hidden fact that the taxpayers spend much more on someone who gets SSI + Medicaid + Section 8 + foodstamps than on an average Social Security reipient).

  127. jamil says:

    newark sucks for arrivals. Landed one hour ago, still on plane because gate not ready. Privatize airports and get rid of big gov lazy parasites!

  128. cobbler says:

    Heathrow is privatized, and the mess there was 4x of EWR with 4x less snow.

  129. jamil says:

    lhr is unionized, not sure if really private

  130. Fabius Maximus says:

    This comes in as the best comment I read today. Wenner (the wanker?) is at the heart of it all. He has been the most influential manager in the premiership, period. The introduction of nutrition, sport science and psychology into the game is down to him and elevated the premiership to the best and most athletic in the world. Outside of a boardroom melt down, in ten years Arsenal will still be top flight were Baca, Milans, Chelsea and Man U will be in Debt Servitude. He saw with the new stadium coming up there would bea shortage of funds so he went after young cheap talent. We ma have a high wage bill, but it is all long term quality. Outside of relegation, Wenger has a job for life until he retires and with this squad we are in for 10 years of solid Arsenal performances.

    “Arsenal have been the only top 4 club to manage their finances well; they are basically free of fixed debt with the sale of their last few apartments in Highbury Square and the fact that their debt is actually collateralized on real assets NOT dicey loans from rich owners. They are making better than average profits as compared to other top 4 clubs, their wages are the lowest of the top 4, their policy of maintaining a strict wage cap has worked well and their transfer strategy of avoiding big name signings at huge wages is also sound. Their ticket prices are high but they give value for money as they play the most crowd-pleasing football, despite not winning silverware in 5 years.
    The same Deloitte survey ranked them 4th in the world for total value and stated that they ,among the world’s top 10 clubs, are the soundest financially. However, Wenger has repeatedly warned that big-spending clubs like Real,Barca,AC Milan,Man.City etc. are threatening the solvency of their leagues and that unless the FA, FIFA and EUFA step in and mandate better financial management practices, many smaller and more vulnerable clubs will go under in Europe. Bundesliga clubs are required to break even or make a profit at the end of the season and can be relegated or removed altogether if they fail to do so. This is a policy the FA needs to look at and also begin to consider the German’s refusal to allow billionaire owners managing and running a club. German clubs are very community oriented and this works fine, with the Bundesliga attendance figures well above other leagues. The next few seasons will either be devastating or rejuvenating for the FA and European clubs as a whole. “

  131. sas3 says:

    Nom, I hope for the sake of the old retirees that the contracts are tight. Would be interesting to see how it develops.

  132. gluteus (138)-

    All true. My only complaint with Wanker is that the past couple of years, he and his players engage in whingeing, diving and sissy-boy antics against the top teams rather than just laying in some hard tackles and playing football.

    Funny how the result went their way yesterday when they simply decided not to let Chelsea beat them up.

    No doubt Barca, Real Madrid and Man U are facing total financial ruin & the billionaire teams could destroy both the EPL and La Liga. If both leagues end up fading under the weight of debt, no big. The Bundesliga (and Ligue 1, for that matter) are better balanced, and the play is a lot more open in both.

  133. Didn’t hurt that Wanker sat Squillacci, Rosicky and Arshavin, either.

  134. Fabius Maximus says:

    #137 Jamil

    LHR is owned by BAA which is in turn owned by a Spanish consorium who are up to their a$$es in debt. The UK government is about to force them to break up BAA and their issues over the last year will make the case a lot easier.

    But keep thinking its all the unions fault and not the need to squeeze every penny of shareholder value out of the company.

  135. Fabius Maximus says:


    I think you have half of your answer. In the past few years, the youth of the team were pushed around and did not know how to respond. One of the best pieces I saw yeasterday was I think Terry body checking Wiltshire and Walcott imediately body checking Obi. Walcott gave the free kick but the message was sent. Walcott then swhut down Cole.
    What Rosicky and Arshavin give is that midfield balance and the abilty to hold off the ball and deliver the pinpoint pass through the defence. That was also what Fat Frank was looking for, soft slow targets in midfields for a physical game to muscle off the ball. I think that the ref was very easy on Chelsea in the first half and England finest should have been booked.

    Also for a so called hack, that first goal was sweet.

  136. chicagofinance says:

    Mikeinwaiting says:
    December 28, 2010 at 7:40 pm
    Clot, Moose. Pistols at 20 paces perhaps.
    The blood makes it interesting.

    The only duel needed is between 2:45 and 5:45 of 10 minutes

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  140. short sale says:

    Hi there fellow blogger! I’m a newbie to the blogosphere but I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your blog here about Short Sale Seller Contribution, it kept me reading all the way to the end… And then I went and searched for some more posts after that. :) Keep up the good work, I’m always looking to learn more about short sale, especially.

  141. Hey .. many thanks for your current awsome post .. i found this by simply browsing on yahoo. I allready bookmark it and wish to view more great posts from you! Cheers :)

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